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I think Tsirkons would probably prevent ANY aircraft carrier launching anything at all! 
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Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich
Mir- Posts : 3506
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Isos- Posts : 11379
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Tolstoy wrote:Why?Isos wrote:It's not about the weaponery only. Engineering means a lot.
And if what you are saying is true then how is engineering going to compensate for lack of enough firepower on U.K's ships?F-18 Super Hornets will be intercepted by Mig 29K and Su-33 before they can launch the Harpoon.Isos wrote:Not a problem at all since harpoon exceed the range of the AD systems. Only Slava and kirov have AD that could pose a threat but even the it would be very hard to hit a hornet at long range because once he launches its harpoon it can go at low altitudes.
Engineering matters. UK type 45 have shitty engines which create for them 2 big problems. 1st they can be tracked from very far by submarines because they make huge noise. And 2nd they are more busy spending their time at shipyards than using their weapons.
Sovremenys also had issues with their engibes and some were in service for less than 10 years !
So yeah engineering matters but doesn't compensate weaponery. That's 2 different things.
My original question was about the quality of indian destroters because they choosed a russian frigate over their own domestic frigate that is better armed and bigger than Grigorovitch.
From where those mig-29 and su-33 will come ? US have 10 carrier with each 40-50 f-18. Russia has 1 Kuznetsov with 4 mig-29 and ~10 su-33.
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GarryB- Posts : 39672
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Indian surface combatants will have to fight the PLA-Navy not the Brits. So comparing the firepower of Indian ships with those of the Brits doesn't help matter. Chinese destroyers carry far more cruise missiles and SAMs than Indian ships.
Hope all you Indians and fans of Indian equipment are reading this...
Indian surface combatants don't have to fight anyone... the Brits are far more expansionist and international in their operations than the Chinese ever were or are today.
India will only face Chinese ships in Chinese waters if they are stupid enough to ally themselves with the US... there is no other reason for them to be there.
In Indian waters they enjoy significant air support and mutual support from ground based forces too.
But lets assume India becomes Americas bitch... why would cannon fodder need better ships?
So they protect the forces they are acting as a meat shield to protect of course... so it will only be a matter of time before the US starts suggesting that India start buying up old American ships that didn't work or are worn out and in need of replacement in the US Navy... but will be good for India for the next 40 years.
You also left out the part that Papa Dragon made about how under powered the engines are on Indian ships. So I'll reproduce his quote here again.
How fast do they need to be?
Those super littoral control ships the US built about 16 of had problems with their propulsion and can only do about 12 knots so in comparison I am sure they are fine...
If the super US makers can screw up, surely the Indians can make mistakes too.
It's not about the weaponery only. Engineering means a lot.
Of course... and training too... but then another aspect that is critical is having a government that will spend hundreds of billions on upgrading Trident that they will never likely use and even if they did the US would be doing the same so there would be little extra effect to the UK launching them anyway, but the fact that they bought two aircraft carriers but can't even afford 6 enlarged corvettes to escort them and at any one time they might have one or three of those enlarged corvettes operational suggests the UK has rather more problems to worry about than India.
Not a problem at all since harpoon exceed the range of the AD systems. Only Slava and kirov have AD that could pose a threat but even the it would be very hard to hit a hornet at long range because once he launches its harpoon it can go at low altitudes.
The air launched model has a range of 220km, so it would be launching within the range of Indian and Russian MiG-29K, while Russian Su-33 would be a problem for those Hornets too. The Slava and Kirov and the new ships will have Redut which on the larger ships will carry S-400 large missiles, which include a 250km and a 400km range version, so no, they don't exceed the AD of their new ships. Low altitudes is normally a problem for ships, but modern AESA radars and Ka-31 AEW helicopters makes flying very low less useful... the Soviets solved that problem decades ago with high flying faster weapons in large numbers being more effective than lots of slow missiles flying low when the opponent has AEW and fighter aircraft...
However harpoons chances to go through are very small unless they manage to attack with plenty of them at once.
As shown in Syria 71 missiles attacking targets protected by BUK and Pantsir were all shot down easily enough and that does not even include the TOR system the Russians had but did not use, though they have them at sea and that is their primary purpose... shooting down anti ship missiles and munitions... subsonic and supersonic.
So yeah engineering matters but doesn't compensate weaponery. That's 2 different things.
So UK ships are limited by both problems really... they lack a decent SAM... 120km means even old version Kh-31 anti radiation missiles are a threat, let alone newer models with double that range... even Sunburns from 1980 is on the edge of that range... a regiment of Su-30MKIs could launch over 100 missiles at a British ship...
From where those mig-29 and su-33 will come ? US have 10 carrier with each 40-50 f-18. Russia has 1 Kuznetsov with 4 mig-29 and ~10 su-33.
From where those Hornets come? Anything within 2,000km of Russian airspace will have MiG-31Ks with hypersonic anti ships going after those carriers... even a Russian corvette would be able to defend itself from Harpoon from a Hornet or a UK corvette.
Russian OTH radar will provide them with plenty of warning of carrier groups and even Hornets in flight... they detected US F-35s on the border of Iran and Iraq....
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RTN- Posts : 743
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Russian destroyers are limited too....Sovremenny and Udaloy can both carry just 8 cruise missiles.GarryB wrote:So UK ships are limited by both problems really... they lack a decent SAM... 120km means even old version Kh-31 anti radiation missiles are a threat, let alone newer models with double that range... even Sunburns from 1980 is on the edge of that range... a regiment of Su-30MKIs could launch over 100 missiles at a British ship...
Sujoy- Posts : 2323
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The first part of your sentence refers to Indian destroyers and the second part refers to Indian frigates. So what is your question about destroyers or frigates?Isos wrote:My original question was about the quality of indian destroters because they choosed a russian frigate over their own domestic frigate that is better armed and bigger than Grigorovitch.
I will answer the question about frigates: The Ukrainians denied the engines to Russia. Russia wanted to sell the ships. Pakistan showed interest and wanted to buy more. Pakistan has great relationship with Ukraine with T-80UD tanks and Al-Khalid engines sourced from there. All their other tank engines also come from there. So India had to buy to keep them from falling into Pakistani hands.
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Sujoy wrote:The first part of your sentence refers to Indian destroyers and the second part refers to Indian frigates. So what is your question about destroyers or frigates?Isos wrote:My original question was about the quality of indian destroters because they choosed a russian frigate over their own domestic frigate that is better armed and bigger than Grigorovitch.
I will answer the question about frigates: The Ukrainians denied the engines to Russia. Russia wanted to sell the ships. Pakistan showed interest and wanted to buy more. Pakistan has great relationship with Ukraine with T-80UD tanks and Al-Khalid engines sourced from there. All their other tank engines also come from there. So India had to buy to keep them from falling into Pakistani hands.
My original statement was that they bought Grigorovitch over their better armed indian made frigate which made me suppose the quality of indian frigates is shitty. Then we can ask if their destroyers suffer the same problem.
If pakistani want Grigorovitch they can order them. It is quite fast to build them. India can't stop it, even less now that they buy US stuff to replace russian stuff. It would be a smart move from Russia. Replace the traitor by its enemy. I'm pretty sure they bought it because it is the most reliable ship in their inventory and they desperately need more frigates against the huge chinese navy.
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India is not buying any new Grigorovich class frigates. The deal was always for 4 ships. Two to be built in Russia and two in India.Isos wrote: I'm pretty sure they bought it because it is the most reliable ship in their inventory and they desperately need more frigates against the huge chinese navy.
India had inked a $950 million deal in October 2018 for two warships to be made in Russia, followed by a $ 1.2 billion deal with Goa Shipyard for the balance two.
And pray how will a bankrupt Pakistan fund the purchase? Moreover, as soon as they purchase Russian weapons the U.S will impose CAATSA sanctions. India spends billions on lobbying to keep U.S sanctions at bay, Pakistan can't afford that.Isos wrote: If pakistani want Grigorovitch they can order them. It is quite fast to build them. India can't stop it, even less now that they buy US stuff to replace russian stuff. It would be a smart move from Russia. Replace the traitor by its enemy.
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India is not buying any new Grigorovich class frigates. The deal was always for 4 ships. Two to be built in Russia and two in India.
India had inked a $950 million deal in October 2018 for two warships to be made in Russia, followed by a $ 1.2 billion deal with Goa Shipyard for the balance two.
So they are buying 4 new Grigorovitch. You contradict yourself.
If Shivalik was good they wouldn't be building the grigorovitch in their own shipyard. They would have bought their own design which is better armed but theyaren't because it is a shitty ship.
Not only did they buy the 2 already build in Russia but also bought licence to build two in India.
And pray how will a bankrupt Pakistan fund the purchase? Moreover, as soon as they purchase Russian weapons the U.S will impose CAATSA sanctions. India spends billions on lobbying to keep U.S sanctions at bay, Pakistan can't afford that.
It's you who said Pakistani wanted to buy it so India bought it first. If they can't afford it why India hurry to buy it ?
You contradict yourself here too.
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Isos wrote:India is not buying any new Grigorovich class frigates. The deal was always for 4 ships. Two to be built in Russia and two in India.
India had inked a $950 million deal in October 2018 for two warships to be made in Russia, followed by a $ 1.2 billion deal with Goa Shipyard for the balance two.
So they are buying 4 new Grigorovitch. You contradict yourself.
If Shivalik was good they wouldn't be building the grigorovitch in their own shipyard. They would have bought their own design which is better armed but theyaren't because it is a shitty ship.
Not only did they buy the 2 already build in Russia but also bought licence to build two in India.
And pray how will a bankrupt Pakistan fund the purchase? Moreover, as soon as they purchase Russian weapons the U.S will impose CAATSA sanctions. India spends billions on lobbying to keep U.S sanctions at bay, Pakistan can't afford that.
It's you who said Pakistani wanted to buy it so India bought it first. If they can't afford it why India hurry to buy it ?
You contradict yourself here too.
The question now if the half finished frigate at Yantar will replace one of the 2 taiwar that should be built in india or it is in addition to those.
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I did not. Two of the Grigorovich class frigates are semi built frigates that Russia intends to sell because Ukraine won't supply the engines. India is purchasing these two old frigates and as part of the deal will built two Grigorovich class frigates at home.Isos wrote:So they are buying 4 new Grigorovitch. You contradict yourself.
You seem to be drawing the conclusion that India is purchasing Grigorovich class because India's own frigates are "shitty".
So regardless of whether Indian frigates are "shitty" or not and India's decision to purchase Grigorovich class frigates are mutually exclusive events.
The Shivaliks are no longer being built. Their successor is the Nilgiri class of frigates. They will be deployed from 2023 onward.Isos wrote:If Shivalik was good they wouldn't be building the grigorovitch in their own shipyard. They would have bought their own design which is better armed but theyaren't because it is a shitty ship.
Not only did they buy the 2 already build in Russia but also bought licence to build two in India.
Isos wrote:It's you who said Pakistani wanted to buy it so India bought it first. If they can't afford it why India hurry to buy it ?
You contradict yourself here too.
Again I didn't. I was referring to the current economic status of Pakistan not what it was 5, 6 years ago. Talks began between India & Russia soon after the Ukraine conflict around 2015. Then Pakistan probably would have been able to purchase the frigates if the deal was funded by either China or Middle Eastern countries. Plus CAATSA Act did not exist in 2015.
Today 6 years later, Pakistan is bankrupt. Lenders including China are concerned about financing Pakistan.
In additon to the Talwar class frigates that already exist.Rodion_Romanovic wrote:The question now if the half finished frigate at Yantar will replace one of the 2 taiwar that should be built in india or it is in addition to those.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2554
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The indian taiwar class frigates that currently exist are 6.Sujoy wrote:I did not. Two of the Grigorovich class frigates are semi built frigates that Russia intends to sell because Ukraine won't supply the engines. India is purchasing these two old frigates and as part of the deal will built two Grigorovich class frigates at home.Isos wrote:So they are buying 4 new Grigorovitch. You contradict yourself.In additon to the Talwar class frigates that already exist.Rodion_Romanovic wrote:The question now if the half finished frigate at Yantar will replace one of the 2 taiwar that should be built in india or it is in addition to those.
3 built at the baltic shipyard in saint petersburg about 20 years ago) and other 3 built in yantar (Kaliningrad) from 2007.
In addition to those there are the new 4 from the recent contract.
Two half finished grigorovic class (formerly called tushil (ex admiral butakov) and tamala (ex admiral istomin) that will be completed in Kaliningrad.
And two new ships that will be built in Goa shipyard in india.
Total 10 taiwar class frigates for india.
Finally, a few days ago it was announced that the last grigorovic class frigate half built in Kaliningrad (ex admiral kornilov) will be also sold abroad.
https://ria.ru/20210924/fregat-1751563463.html
Question; is this ship being also sold to india? If so will the total amount of taiwar frigates for india grow up to 11 ships, or will ex admiral kornilov replace one of the two that should be built in Goa shipyard (india)?
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GarryB- Posts : 39672
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Russian destroyers are limited too....Sovremenny and Udaloy can both carry just 8 cruise missiles.
They were designed and built in the 1980s... these British ships are brand new.
The upgraded Udaloy is getting UKSK launch tubes that allow them to carry 4,500km range land attack cruise missiles or Zircon mach 9 1,000km range anti ship and land attack missiles, or Ovtet anti sub ballistic rockets in any combinations.
Sometimes the content of a tube is more important than the number... one Zircon missile is a very potent weapon... one Harpoon can be a very potent weapon too if you are not ready and not expecting it it can be very very effective... but the Soviets went for speed because they knew their enemies were going to see the massive launch of a lot of anti ship missiles against a carrier group coming, so make them fly high and fast and limit the amount of time they have to do anything about them was their solution.
They would have bought their own design which is better armed but theyaren't because it is a shitty ship.
The British were supposed to be buying 12 ships but only ended up buying 6 because that is all they could afford... I suspect they probably would like to have a few shitty ships available to them because when the alternative is no ship... well that is really shitty.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2554
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Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Question; is this ship being also sold to india? If so will the total amount of taiwar frigates for india grow up to 11 ships, or will ex admiral kornilov replace one of the two that should be built in Goa shipyard (india)?
Ok, i found the answer in charlie's blog
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1728343
The keel of the second frigate to be build in india has already been laid this summer, so if ex kornilov will go to india it will be the 11th taiwar.
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What did his blog say? Is this ship also being sold to India? If yes, it means India is purchasing not 2 but 3 Admiral Grigorovich frigates from Russia.Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Question; is this ship being also sold to india? If so will the total amount of taiwar frigates for india grow up to 11 ships, or will ex admiral kornilov replace one of the two that should be built in Goa shipyard (india)?
Ok, i found the answer in charlie's blog
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1728343
The keel of the second frigate to be build in india has already been laid this summer, so if ex kornilov will go to india it will be the 11th taiwar.
Indian government however has not released any statement that suggests that a third frigate is being purchased.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2554
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Sujoy wrote:What did his blog say? Is this ship also being sold to India? If yes, it means India is purchasing not 2 but 3 Admiral Grigorovich frigates from Russia.Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Question; is this ship being also sold to india? If so will the total amount of taiwar frigates for india grow up to 11 ships, or will ex admiral kornilov replace one of the two that should be built in Goa shipyard (india)?
Ok, i found the answer in charlie's blog
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1728343
The keel of the second frigate to be build in india has already been laid this summer, so if ex kornilov will go to india it will be the 11th taiwar.
Indian government however has not released any statement that suggests that a third frigate is being purchased.
He reported about the new order (that does not specify the customer). Furthermore in a previous update in the same page he reported about the laying of the keel of the second indian hull in Goa. So now they have already two Taiwar frigates being built there.
What I mean is that it is not yet proven that the customer for ex admiral kornilov will be india (even if it is probable), just that in case it is india this ship will not replace one of the two being built there, but will be an additional one.
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Then they should be decommissioned. They are useless.GarryB wrote:They were designed and built in the 1980s
This should be a good tagline for firepower starved British and Indian ships.GarryB wrote:Sometimes the content of a tube is more important than the number.
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Then they should be decommissioned. They are useless.
Which totally ignores Russias current situation... fitting some Udaloys with UKSK launch tubes and Redut SAM systems gives them more fire power and flexibility than these new British destroyers.... the British Aster SAM missiles of which there are 48 tubes has a 30km range SAM and a 120km range SAM... the Redut has three missile types available in the smaller launch model with 15km IIR CIWS missiles quad loaded per tube, or 60km and 150km range SAMs with ARH seekers that can engage a variety of target types... not to mention the UKSK launch tubes have a variety of weapon options well beyond the Harpoon or Harpoon options for the British.
With a simple upgrade they can make an old ship useful and it is a good sized ship that could be used on longer patrols and operations while frigates and corvettes are laid down and built.... which takes time... and for the destroyer and cruiser designs to be formulated and built and tested.
These British boats are the best ships they have to escort their carriers and their armament is comparable to a modern Russian corvette... but lacking in many areas...
Even the Russians are going to be buying more than 6 Corvettes of the various types and frigates of the various types too...
This should be a good tagline for firepower starved British and Indian ships.
Well the Indians are in a better situation than the British in that regard because their Brahmos missiles are essentially just Onyx missiles which means their launch tubes could be UKSK like launchers which would allow them to use Club based export missiles which include the land attack subsonic cruise missiles, the anti ship subsonic missiles and the two stage rocket powered mach 3 anti ship missiles along with their Brahmos mach 2 missiles and any further developments.
The should also be able to use the ballistic rocket delivered torpedo for anti sub use too, which actually makes them quite flexible.
Harpoon is not a bad missile but rather limited in comparison... and only building 6 ships is limiting too... of course the core of their problem is they don't have any really long range SAMs for their ships.
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RTN wrote:This should be a good tagline for firepower starved British and Indian ships.GarryB wrote:Sometimes the content of a tube is more important than the number.
Clearly you can see squat through those shades bro!
Even the their small Veer missile ships have 16 Brahmos anti-ship missiles on board. The US and the UK are both lagging behind most major navies in that department these days.
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Thought we were discussing the number of cruise missiles that Udaloy and Sovremenny can carry. Fitting UKSK won't increase the number of cruise missiles that they can carry.GarryB wrote:Which totally ignores Russias current situation... fitting some Udaloys with UKSK launch tubes and Redut SAM systems gives them more fire power and flexibility
Possible! Bought them from Russia.Mir wrote:Clearly you can see squat through those shades bro!
Kh-35 and not Brahmos. That too only the export version with 130 km range.Mir wrote:Even the their small Veer missile ships have 16 Brahmos anti-ship missiles on board.
Do you realize Arleigh Burke class ships are armed with 56 Raytheon Tomahawk cruise missiles, with a combination of land-attack (TLAM) missiles with a Tercom-aided navigation system, and anti-ship missiles with inertial guidance.Mir wrote:The US and the UK are both lagging behind most major navies in that department these days.
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Kh-35 and not Brahmos. That too only the export version with 130 km range.
True you got me there RTN but as I've said before...
Do you realize Arleigh Burke class ships are armed with 56 Raytheon Tomahawk cruise missiles, with a combination of land-attack (TLAM) missiles with a Tercom-aided navigation system, and anti-ship missiles with inertial guidance.
...those Tomahawks are worthless against any modern air defense in any mode.
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Burkes will only carry 56 cruise missiles if they are attacking third world countries, against Russia, China and even Iran they would return to their old role: air defence.
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Thought we were discussing the number of cruise missiles that Udaloy and Sovremenny can carry. Fitting UKSK won't increase the number of cruise missiles that they can carry.
We are.
The Udaloy carried 8 Metel missiles that could be used against submarines (using an onboard torpedo) or a ship (with the torpedo and an onboard 300kg warhead), but no cruise missiles and the Sovremmeny carried 8 x Mach 2.2 Sunburn anti ship missiles with no land attack or anti sub capacity... that was in the 1980s.
Today the upgraded Udaloy classes are losing one gun mount for two UKSK launchers, and the other gun is replaced by a better gun as shown in this photo here:
As you can see... from the front... one gun, two UKSK launchers then 8 Uran launch tubes where the old Metel launchers were, so essentially 16 cruise missile launch tubes, a better main gun, 8 Harpoon equivalent anti ship and land attack missiles... and if they haven't changed them it should still have Klintok (naval TOR) self defence missiles in 64 launch tubes ready to fire.
Compared with the UK destroyer it has half the number of Harpoons, plus double the number of a wide variety of weapons to choose from from land attack and anti sub and anti ship designs, plus 64 ready to launch missiles to defend the ship... it has a big gun and also gatlings, but lacks a long range SAM.
Kh-35 and not Brahmos. That too only the export version with 130 km range.
The Kh-35U is available with 260km range if they want it.
Do you realize Arleigh Burke class ships are armed with 56 Raytheon Tomahawk cruise missiles, with a combination of land-attack (TLAM) missiles with a Tercom-aided navigation system, and anti-ship missiles with inertial guidance.
Yep, slow flying easy to shoot down missiles... that need to be used in enormous numbers to have a chance of being effective.
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Mir wrote:Kh-35 and not Brahmos. That too only the export version with 130 km range.
True you got me there RTN but as I've said before...
Do you realize Arleigh Burke class ships are armed with 56 Raytheon Tomahawk cruise missiles, with a combination of land-attack (TLAM) missiles with a Tercom-aided navigation system, and anti-ship missiles with inertial guidance.
...those Tomahawks are worthless against any modern air defense in any mode.
That idiot copied that shit from here :
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/burke/
The ships are armed with 56 Raytheon Tomahawk cruise missiles, with a combination of land-attack (TLAM) missiles with a Tercom-aided navigation system, and anti-ship missiles with inertial guidance.
Do you really try to talk to that dumb boot?
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How many ships does the Russian navy have armed with 56 cruise missiles that have recently fought against a first world country?Hole wrote:Burkes will only carry 56 cruise missiles if they are attacking third world countries, against Russia, China and even Iran they would return to their old role: air defence.
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What a jerk...who thinks a media outlet produces original content and does not publish specs provided by the military.ALAMO wrote:
That idiot copied that shit from here :
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/burke/
The ships are armed with 56 Raytheon Tomahawk cruise missiles, with a combination of land-attack (TLAM) missiles with a Tercom-aided navigation system, and anti-ship missiles with inertial guidance.
Do you really try to talk to that dumb boot?
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