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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu May 19, 2022 7:18 am

    If it hasn't already been asset stripped then it will likely be destroyed or sabotaged.

    Would not expect anything useful to be found there any time soon and certainly not worth a cent to fix up afterwards.
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    Post  limb Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:28 pm

    Why cant the grigoroviches use the gas turbines of saturn?
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:11 am

    Ships propulsion systems are a bit like car propulsion systems... it is not like you have an engine and an accelerator pedal that goes from naught to top speed.

    The engine of a car has an efficient running speed and a power running speed... most 2 litre cars 2 to 3 thousand revs for travelling at 100km/h on the motor way, 4-5 thousand revs for accelerating or climbing hills with loads on.

    A ship generally has quarter, half, three quarter and full flank speeds forward and a reverse speed or two. The hydrodynamic shape of the hull and the propeller means it wont be able to go backwards as fast as it can go forward.

    Most naval diesel engines can be stopped and then run backwards so no special gears are needed to run backwards.

    A combined gas turbine and diesel powered ship the quarter speed power setting is usually running on diesels and it most efficient but also rather slow.

    A ship with diesels and gas turbines use the gas turbines for sprints at max speeds...

    The point is that for different jobs different speeds are required or desired... if you look at the Udaloy and the Sovremmeny class ships the former is a sub hunter and the latter is a destroyer so they have different roles with different speed requirements so they have quite different propulsion systems too.

    For the new ships they need to be flexible because they will be used for a range of different roles for which different speed capabilities will be valuable.

    For short range light transport aircraft sometimes a turboprop is more efficient than a low bypass turbofan... if you get it wrong you end up with a plane that burns too much fuel for what it does, or you end up with a plane that is too slow or too short ranged to be useful.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:09 am

    The Admiral Grigorovich was an interim design while they couldn't get the Admiral Gorshkov working.
    It makes no sense to continue building them at this juncture.

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:05 pm

    lancelot wrote:The Admiral Grigorovich was an interim design while they couldn't get the Admiral Gorshkov working.
    It makes no sense to continue building them at this juncture.

    It's more accurate to call the 11356s an insurance policy in the event that the 22350s didn't meet expectations. The 1st 11356 was laid down in the same year as the 1st 22350 was launched.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Wed Jun 14, 2023 9:48 am

    Yantar builds 3 - 11356 for the Indians
    IMO these should go to the BSF

    I don't understand why this Shipyard makes for India in time of the SMO

    For those who said this class was unneeded, Well look at the state of the sad VMF now

    Can you still say these ships are not needed? Where is 22350 in numbers? That's right nowhere still playing with first serial ship and zircon

    11356 is desperately needed to increase firepower of the BSF - Shtil is undesirable, but acceptable

    Redut carrying ships will not be a thing for the BSF for a while, Shtil is all it can expect for now

    Until Zaliv or Zelenodolsk builds some Redut ships, BSF can stop dreaming of long range AD

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:05 am

    What are you writing about, those frigates were sold and the Russians got money for it..
    And no, Russia does not need these frigates anymore. The air defense system is also better on the 20380 corvettes although with fewer launch cells. Project 20385 corvettes also have one UKSK as do 11356 frigates. For God's sake, these frigates don't even have a Paket-NK anti-submarine system.



    20 Nov 2018, 12:17
    Russia, India sign contracts on building 4 Project 11356 frigates
    Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation stressed that this was "another important event in developing Russian-Indian military and technical cooperation"

    MOSCOW, November 20. /TASS/. Russia has signed contracts with India on the construction of four Project 11356 frigates for the Indian Navy, Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation said on Tuesday.

    "Contracts were signed for the construction of Project 11356 frigates for the Indian Navy. This is yet another important event in developing Russian-Indian military and technical cooperation," the Federal Service said.

    Russia earlier held negotiations with the Indian side on the contract on the acquisition of four Project 11356 frigates. The Indian media reported that the government of India wanted to buy four Russian frigates that would be built in the 2+2 format: two would be constructed at Russia’s Yantar Shipyard on the Baltic coast and the other two at India’s Goa Shipyard.

    Project 11356 frigates are designed to deliver strikes against enemy surface ships and submarines in the close-in and oceanic zones and fight air targets. The warships of this type are armed with A-190 100mm artillery guns, strike missile and air defense systems, including Kalibr and Shtil complexes and torpedo tubes. The frigates displace 3,620 tonnes, are 124.8 meters long, develop a speed of 30 knots and have an operating range of 4,850 miles.

    https://tass.com/defense/1031650



    Russia needs project 20385 corvettes and project 22350 frigates - that's all.
    All the rest are forced measures such as project 22160 patrol ships, frigates 11356R, 22800 MRK, etc...




    Last edited by Podlodka77 on Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:09 am

    How can 20380, which is built by severnaya pass through bosphorus to reach BSF?

    can 20380 pass through canal system ?

    IMO 11356 is still fit for service in BSF,

    ASW duties can be done by 22160 with ASW container module

    But let's not pretend MOD can just sell these ships to India, right now the money is less important than filling out the BSF
    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:13 am

    The contract for the sale of frigates was signed in 2018 and I sent you a link about it - should I draw it ?

    READ AGAIN ;

    https://www.thedefensepost.com/2018/11/20/india-russia-4-admiral-grigorovich-project-11356-frigates/

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:22 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:How can 20380, which is built by severnaya pass through bosphorus to reach BSF?

    can 20380 pass through canal system ?

    IMO 11356 is still fit for service in BSF,

    ASW duties can be done by 22160 with ASW container module

    But let's not pretend MOD can just sell these ships to India, right now the money is less important than filling out the BSF

    It is not just a matter of money (but they do not hurt either). It is also about credibility and keeping good relationships with India. Since India did not impose sanctions against Russia and did not provide weapons to Ukraine there is no justification for cancelling the contract.
    Russia is not France or US.

    Furthermore 20380 (including its modernisations as the later ships of the serie include also some solutions from 20385), while smaller than 11356, is a more capable ship which only disadvantages in comparison to 11356 are a lower range and endurance (and a slightly lower top speed).

    By the way, were the engines for the last frigates already delivered from Zorya Mashproekt before 2022? If not it will be difficult for them to be completed. Furthermore India wanted to build also a couple more frigates in Goa... I doubt Zorya will ever be able to produce those engines again...

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:14 pm

    In theory Russia can now produce engines with similar performance. M90FR and M70FRU. But a reduction gear would have to be designed and produced. It is claimed that the future 22350M destroyers will use a similar propulsion scheme, so it might be that if India waits something will be available.

    From what I heard the propulsion had been delivered by Ukraine for two of the ships in India, but I do not know about the other one.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:19 pm

    lancelot wrote:In theory Russia can now produce engines with similar performance. M90FR and M70FRU. But a reduction gear would have to be designed and produced. It is claimed that the future 22350M destroyers will use a similar propulsion scheme, so it might be that if India waits something will be available.

    From what I heard the propulsion had been delivered by Ukraine for two of the ships in India, but I do not know about the other one.
    As far as I could understand, 22350M should have a similar size to the udaloy class anti sub destroyer, so it is not really the same, unless you meant a. Combined Gas turbine and gas turbine propulsion system (COGAG) instead of the combined diesel and Gas (CODAG) of the baseline 22350.

    Anyway, possibly after finishing the first two ships, Russia could propose India an export version of Gorshkov class.

    Podlodka77 wrote:Russia needs project 20385 corvettes and project 22350 frigates - that's all.
    All the rest are forced measures such as project 22160 patrol ships, frigates 11356R, 22800 MRK, etc...

    I do not agree, 22160 and 22800 have very useful roles.

    22160 are relatively small (about 1.5 larger than 22800) patrol ships with relatively limited armament but good endurance, useful in a lot of peacetime operation which do not require massive firepower (in one occasion Russia had to use freaking peter the great battle cruiser for an anti pirate operation (for which often it uses instead udaloy class destroyers) as it was the only available ship with required endurance.

    22800 are good small missile ships and with Pantsir, they have now even decent short to mid range anti air protection.

    I would actually gladly see a new small ship, maybe a variant of either 22160 or 22800, specialised in antisub warfare, a sort of modern replacement for the project 1124 grisha class.

    All of those small ships can be also be built inland and can use the internal rivers/channels to move around the various seas (most 1124 were build in Zelenodolsk (Tatarstan) and Kiev (in addition to Khabarovsk and Vladivostok)).

    Especially if we talk about black sea, large ships are not really needed there, except for the fact that ships from the black sea fleet can also serve in the permanent russian squadron in the med or temporarily cross over to red sea or Persian gulf.

    By the way, are there water channels in Iran allowing a corvette like 22800 or 22160 to go from the Caspian sea to the Persian gulf?

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:57 am

    17:27, June 15, 2023
    Science and technology

    The terms of repair of "Admiral Grigorovich" will be determined after inspection
    The terms of repair of the frigate of the Black Sea Fleet "Admiral Grigorovich" will be known 10 days after the inspection

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 40 Wide_410
    Photo: Ibrahim Ishak / RIA Novosti

    The terms of repair of the frigate of the Black Sea Fleet (BSF) "Admiral Grigorovich" will be determined after the completion of dock inspection and fault detection. A source in the shipbuilding industry told TASS about this.

    “The approximate duration of the repair of the Admiral Grigorovich frigate will become known in 10 days after the dock inspection of the ship is completed,” the agency’s interlocutor said.

    TASS emphasizes that it does not have official confirmation of this information.

    The frigate "Admiral Grigorovich" project 11356R was launched in 2014. The ships of this project are designed to combat submarines and surface ships, as well as repel attacks by air attack weapons. The frigate received eight cells of the 3S14 universal ship firing system, which allows launching Kalibr-NK or Onyx missiles.

    In May, TASS, citing a source in the shipbuilding industry, reported that the Admiral Grigorovich had arrived in Baltiysk for scheduled repairs, which would be carried out at the Yantar Baltic Shipyard. The ship arrived after a watch in the Mediterranean.

    https://lenta.ru/news/2023/06/15/11356/

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:27 pm

    She really wanted to be a 22160 Laughing

    Massimo Frantarelli
    @MrFrantarelli
    Aug 10
    Russian Navy ship with deceptive camo.

    Admiral Grigorovich-class frigate (Project 11356R) Admiral Makarov.
    🗺️ Sevastopol .
    📸 Brichevsky (🗓️ August 10, 2023)

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 40 F8DyZ-rXUAIfvPT?format=jpg&name=small

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sun Nov 12, 2023 11:19 am

    Catching up with time

    The frigate "Admiral Grigorovich", which was discussed in the previous message, has increased its speed. Yesterday morning, the Portuguese Navy reported that they had taken a Russian ship for escort, and late in the evening of the same day he was spotted by shipspotters in Gibraltar, going in an easterly direction, that is, towards the Mediterranean Sea .
    Thus, in order to make up for the time lost due to the storm, "Grigorovich" covered the above-mentioned 1100 miles not in 90, but in just 60 hours, accelerating from a purely economic speed (12 knots) to a combat economic speed (18 knots).

    With the arrival of a frigate-class ship in SZM, our operational formation began to look more solid, although, of course, three small ships of the main classes (FR, KRV, MRK) are clearly not enough for a Russian outpost in such a problematic region. We are waiting for the completion of the Northern Military District in Ukroshitstan (of course, a victorious one) and the beginning of an energetic renewal and expansion of the naval strength of the fleet. ■

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 40 Photo_94

    https://t.me/navy_korabel/254

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:51 am

    When peace breaks out on the black sea in former Ukrainian territory there are a few places there where shipyards could be set up or rebuilt to build civilian ships to take up the slack of all the new ships Russia needs... remember the civilian ships will generate revenue that will help pay for the military ships they will be building too.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:19 am

    GarryB wrote:When peace breaks out on the black sea in former Ukrainian territory there are a few places there where shipyards could be set up or rebuilt to build civilian ships to take up the slack of all the new ships Russia needs... remember the civilian ships will generate revenue that will help pay for the military ships they will be building too.

    Absolutely. There are at least 4 large shipyards to be rebuilt (3 in Nikolaev and one in Kherson), plus several ship repairing yards (including one on the Danube).
    Furthermore a new yard could also be built in Mariupol.

    By the way, depending on how the SMO will end, also a shipyard in Kiev could be considered (not for frigates, of course, but it should have similar capabilities to the tatarstan shipyard).
    In the past kiev shipyard used to produce even grisha class antisub corvettes.


    Anyway a 20380 corvette or a frigate like 11356 (or an export version of the 22350) could be a perfect start for a new Nikolaev north shipyard (after they finish rebuilding it from scratch of course).

    That shipyard was one of the oldest of imperial Russia, and in the 70s/ 80s built the Slava class cruisers.
    differently from the other shipyards of the city it was not properly modernised in the last years of Soviet union.

    I am sure that later large frigates, destroyers or even cruisers will be built again at that location, but starting first with a proven concept will be preferable.

    As far as 11356 many internal system could be easily modified and substituted with modern equivalent, but in that case the final product will end up costing almost as much as 22350 and require new testing.

    Furthermore probably zorya mashproekt has been completely destroyed and I do not know if they will ever have the capability again to produce those older engines

    I believe UEC will want to rebuild a ship engine factory in Nikolaev (both for gas turbines and for reductor gears), but I do not believe that they will produce older engine models, unless some of the machinery has been preserved.

    So if it is possible to produce the 11356 engines without large investments and the ships can be produced in the basic export version (i.e. for customers like Vietnam, Argentina, etc), then it will be a very good opportunity for the new Nikolayev north shipyard.

    If not, it does not make much sense to modify and adapt the ship to different engines and systems, when there is 22350 which is finally a proven concept.

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