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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:57 pm

    If they can't sell the hull just scrap it. For how many years has that drydock been stuck with this? It was supposed to be an interim ship design in case the Admiral Gorshkov was delayed or failed but right now that ship design is robust and has even done a world circumnavigation trip. Its supply chain is also complete and the engines are produced in Russia.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:16 pm

    lancelot wrote:If they can't sell the hull just scrap it. For how many years has that drydock been stuck with this? It was supposed to be an interim ship design in case the Admiral Gorshkov was delayed or failed but right now that ship design is robust and has even done a world circumnavigation trip. Its supply chain is also complete and the engines are produced in Russia.


    Why in the world would they scrap 300 million $ ?
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:34 pm

    Isos wrote:...Why in the world would they scrap 300 million $ ?

    Because they can't find a moron dumb enough to spend 300 mil on that scrap heap

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:57 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:...Why in the world would they scrap 300 million $ ?

    Because they can't find a moron dumb enough to spend 300 mil on that scrap heap

    They could. Lot of countries can be interested. Maybe not now with the covid crisis. But in the future yes.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:...Why in the world would they scrap 300 million $ ?

    Because they can't find a moron dumb enough to spend 300 mil on that scrap heap

    It is not 300 millions, the largest part of the cost is given by sensors, radars and weapon systems, then the powerplant. The hull itself is not that expensive.

    However as far as I remember reading, admiral kornilov was already lowered in the water in november 2017 Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 36 IrCh8fk54ExKH2TswW3i3STKNfFCk2C2RNJl7DD2owqcxHBt3YdyfG9JBdiyO99kq_J6bpmRyOJonT3VoXnDag%3D%3D?uid=0&filename=%D0%A1%D0%9A%D0%A01


    If so it does not occupy any place in a drydock or slip way. They just need to spend a bit of money to preserve the hull in good conditions and to prevent corrosion.

    Of course the shipyard would like to monetize on it as soon as possible but probably for Russia there is no hurry.

    Especially if hurry would mean to scrap the hull or sell it under priced to india.

    Let's India pay full price for it when they are late in building their own two frigates, otherwise it can become the new flagship of Novorossia once they recover Nikolaev.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:09 pm

    Once finished and sold it will give them 300 million.

    Scraping it will give them 0$. They even loose money since they built it.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:34 am

    Saturn makes the gas turbines it uses and the gearboxes and transmissions too... they should finish it themselves and get another new ship into service.

    The Russian navy has 5 fleets... well 4 fleets and a flotilla... I am sure they will find a place for it where it can replace a really obsolete design that can be retired... improving performance and saving some money too.

    The makers of new bits for new ships will also make some money on the contract to complete her and space will be freed up to start work on a ship that does not contain orc parts.

    Selling it without propulsion means that India will expect a reduced price because they will then have to buy the propulsion from the Ukraine... who might just take their money and backstab them.

    Fitting the ship out with propulsion means they can sell it without a discount if they want to, but I think their need for ships is greater than Indias so it would be more valuable to Russia to have an extra newish ship than to have some more money in the pocket.

    Either way Saturn making the propulsion system would mean it can certainly support and maintain the other three ships of this type Russia already operates and can support Indian ships of the same design and sell them new ships in the future if they desire without needing to interact with Mordor.

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:09 am

    Yes, spend millions on R&D for one engine lol!

    They are better off selling it to India at least they will get something out of it.

    Ukraine has never backstabbed India before with deals about supplying parts. In fact, that so stupid to suggest and your personal bias is showing, why would Ukraine take the money and not deliver the engine? why would they pretty much mark themselves as someone who will not supply the parts when a contract was signed? over a bloody engine?.

    Why would they want to lose the revenue they get for supplying India the parts for those frigates? your assertion makes no sense and to put it bluntly is idoitic


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
    medo
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    Post  medo Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:47 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Yes, spend millions on R&D for one engine lol!

    They are better off selling it to India at least they will get something out of it.

    Ukraine has ever backstabbed India before with deals about supplying parts. Infact that so stupid to suggest and your personal bias is showing, why would Ukraine take the money and not deliver the engine? why would they pretty much mark themselves in as someone who will not supply the parts when a contract was signed? over a bloody engine?.

    Why would they want to lose the reviene they get for supplying India the parts for those frigates? your assertion makes no sense and to put it bluntly is idoitic

    BS. Rolling Eyes M90 engine is used on Gorshkov class frigates and M70 will be used in new build Zubr and Murena LCAC. This engines are new and modern as Saturn improve and modernize them with the latest technology, which ukraine doesn't have. Russia have now their own engines and gearboxes and they will use them on many ships and projects of diferent classes and many were on halt because of engines issues.

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:55 am

    medo wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Yes, spend millions on R&D for one engine lol!

    They are better off selling it to India at least they will get something out of it.

    Ukraine has ever backstabbed India before with deals about supplying parts. Infact that so stupid to suggest and your personal bias is showing, why would Ukraine take the money and not deliver the engine? why would they pretty much mark themselves in as someone who will not supply the parts when a contract was signed? over a bloody engine?.

    Why would they want to lose the reviene they get for supplying India the parts for those frigates? your assertion makes no sense and to put it bluntly is idoitic

    BS. Rolling Eyes  M90 engine is used on Gorshkov class frigates and M70 will be used in new build Zubr and Murena LCAC. This engines are new and modern as Saturn improve and modernize them with the latest technology, which ukraine doesn't have. Russia have now their own engines and gearboxes and they will use them on many ships and projects of diferent classes and many were on halt because of engines issues.

    yeahhhh that's not how it works at all. Maybe in fantasy land tho, none of the engines Russia has or is working on will work with the project 11356 period.
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:50 pm

    Just sell them to India and let them deal with Ukraine and/or build the engines themselves.

    We need Gorshkovs.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:38 am

    Yes, spend millions on R&D for one engine

    What are you talking about?

    They have already spent billions replacing products and engines and weapon systems and rockets formerly made in Soviet States now hostile and no longer a reliable source.

    They don't need to spend any extra money.

    These ships are made in Kaliningrad shipyards.

    There are currently three vessels of this type in operation in the Black Sea Fleet, they initially ordered 6 to be made for the Russian fleet but the Ukraine stabbed them in the back and refused to deliver engines that were paid for, meaning they have three in service and one incomplete missing its engines.

    Each ship has four gas turbine engines... 2 x M90FR, and 2 x M70FRU engines... and gearboxes and transmissions for those engines to power the ship.

    They had three finished ships and three unfinished ships... Saturn was working on being able to build the entire propulsion system itself... it already made the M90 and M70 gas turbines, it was the gearboxes and transmissions that Motor Sich provided.

    On 1 June 2017, the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) announced that it would resume construction of the last three frigates in 2018 and that the ships would later join the Russian Navy. The decision to resume the work was made following the preliminary testing of latest Russian gas turbine engines, the M70FRU (14 MW) and M90FR (20 MW, maximal 25-28 MW), designed and built by NPO Saturn plant.[12] With an access to alternative power plants, the ships were believed to remain in Russian service.[15][16] In December 2017, NPO Saturn has successfully completed three R&D projects of the M90FR, Agregat-DKVP and M70FRU-R gas engines held since 2014.

    So Saturn can provide the engines and earlier the plan was for all three remaining ships to be completed for the Russian Navy.

    On 20 October 2018, however a decision was made to sell the unfinished frigates Admiral Butakov and Admiral Istomin to the Indian Navy under a contract worth US$950 million. The Yantar Shipyard in Kaliningrad will carry all necessary works to finish the frigates,[18][19] before they will be handed over to India in first half of 2024.[20] As of 2021, it had still to be confirmed whether Admiral Kornilov would be completed for the Russian Navy or potentially sold to a foreign customer.

    So essentially India wanted two of the ships so the Russians have agreed to sell those two ships to India... presumably with Russian propulsion.

    I suspect because they are relatively modern while remaining not too expensive.

    But it suggests Saturn can produce the propulsion systems and therefore also support domestic models of this ship and is Krivak III predecessor which Russia stlll has two on the books.

    In fact, that so stupid to suggest and your personal bias is showing, why would Ukraine take the money and not deliver the engine?

    They already did it to Russia with engines already paid for not delivered, and China spent quite a bit of money on Antonov and did not get what they paid for either.

    There are also several cases of them taking maintenance jobs from different clients and swapping or stealing parts to complete other job...

    Very dodgy.

    why would they pretty much mark themselves as someone who will not supply the parts when a contract was signed? over a bloody engine?.

    The people with the money going in to swiss bank accounts dont care... who checks for theft on a sinking ship?

    Why would they want to lose the revenue they get for supplying India the parts for those frigates?

    To get the revenue they have to be able to buy the materials, and most of the materials they were buying they were buying from Russia at mates rates.

    your assertion makes no sense and to put it bluntly is idoitic

    You mean like an assertion that they should not waste money on an engine they already make...

    yeahhhh that's not how it works at all. Maybe in fantasy land tho, none of the engines Russia has or is working on will work with the project 11356 period.

    Saturn always made the Gas Turbine engines for the ship. Motor Sich made the Gearboxes and transmissions. Saturn now makes those too.

    Just sell them to India and let them deal with Ukraine and/or build the engines themselves.

    We need Gorshkovs.

    The time it would take to make this ship makes it a useful addition to the Black Sea Fleet to join the other three ships of that type already operating there.

    They ordered 6 ships because they wanted 6 ships... it seems they might only get 4, but that is OK too.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:46 am

    There are reasons Ukraine did not deliver the engines to russia whether you like those reasons or not I frankly don't give a shit.

    China also violated the terms of the contract as China usually does, its very very rare china actually sticks to a deal as written, the Russians know this very well.

    You provided no facts just personal assertions that ignore critical factors.

    No Garry, Saturn doesn't produce engines for the 11356....I cannot believe people are starting to preach this lie. If Russia had or could produce the engines they never would have sold the ships in the first place.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:54 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:There are reasons Ukraine did not deliver the engines to russia whether you look those reasons or not I frankly don't give a shit.

    China also violated the terms of the contract as China usually does, its very very rare china actually sticks to a deal as written, the Russians know this very well.

    You provided no facts just personal assertions that ignore critical factors.

    No Garry, Saturn doesn't produce engines for the 11356....I cannot believe people are starting to preach this lie. If Russia had or could produce the engines they never would have sold the ships in the first place.
    Russia (Saturn) is now producing gas turbine engines with a similar power output than the ones from Zorya Mashproekt.

    In addition Zvezda (the same company in Sankt Petersburg that makes the diesel engines) finally managed to produce the gearbox for the Gorshkov class powerplant (that combines 2 M90 gas turbines with 2 diesel engines (from Colomna). As far as I know, they are not producing a gearbox for the grigorovich class powerplant. So that alone would take time and investment.

    As far as I understand, when you are at the drawing board, you can change the future ship powerplant almost at no cost, but once the project is fully finished it is more complicated (and much more expensive) to change.

    It is almost impossible that they could fit there the cruise diesel engines from gorshov class, as diesel engines are much larger than gas turbine with similar power output, and the space in a ship is precious.

    Possibly if they had the 11356 gearboxes, they could derate the new engines to exactly the value of the 11356 gas turbines output, so that they could fit it there without too much of an hassle, but I do not believe it is the case.

    With the new engines they can have propulsion issues covered for new ship classes, but it takes some tweaks with different projects, especially for the gearboxes if they combine different engines together.

    At the end grigorovich class is a decent frigate 10 m shorter of Gorshkov class.. they do not need too many projects in the same role (multipurpose frigate) and similar size and displacement.

    If they want a cheap export frigate it is probaby simpler and cheaper to build a Gorshkov hull (with Gorshkov engines) and fit with older and cheaper sensors and weapon systems.


    Anyway, the hull of Ex admiral kornilov (the last 11356) is already floated since more than 3 years. It is not occupying precious space in a slipway/ barrack or drydock.

    As long as they spend a little bit of money regularly to preserve the hull and protect from corrosion and other issues, they can probably keep it there for several years without too many problems (until either india decides to buy it at full price (or Nikolaev (and so Zorya Mashproekt) is recovered by novorussian forces)).

    In the meanwhile Yantar can concentrate in finishing the 2 frigates for India and building the modified Ivan gren class.

    If they have spare capacity I would give them orders for gorshov class, instead of this one.

    P.S. just taking for absurd. In the remote possibility that Nikolaev would be recovered by the Novorossians in the near future I would try to recover building capacities of the shipyards there giving them the tasks of building a serie of 11356 there, since they would have the yard space and the powerplant, and I would not trust them at the beginning with something too modern.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:...They ordered 6 ships because they wanted 6 ships... it seems they might only get 4, but that is OK too.

    No, they will not get 4

    They got 3 and there will always have only 3

    No engines
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:33 pm

    The frigate "Admiral Grigorovich" is a Russian warship, which for the first time in stories The Russian Federation entered Port Sudan, where a Russian naval base may soon appear. He arrived in this African country to resupply and rest the team after the international naval exercises AMAN-2021, which took place in the Arabian Sea on February 15-16.

    https://en.topwar.ru/180417-rossijskij-boevoj-korabl-vpervye-v-istorii-rf-voshel-v-port-sudan-gde-pojavitsja-punkt-mto-vmf-rossii.html

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    Post  mnztr Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:13 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    It is almost impossible that they could fit there the cruise diesel engines from gorshov class, as diesel engines are much larger than gas turbine with similar power output, and the space in a ship is precious.

    They may not be able to fit diesels but perhaps they can fit electric motors and upsize the diesel genset capacity a bit. The 20386 propulsion may be a possibility.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:47 pm

    There are reasons Ukraine did not deliver the engines to russia whether you like those reasons or not I frankly don't give a shit.

    Pretty obvious that they are thieves.... no shit required thanks.

    China also violated the terms of the contract as China usually does, its very very rare china actually sticks to a deal as written, the Russians know this very well.

    I very much doubt that.

    You provided no facts just personal assertions that ignore critical factors.

    https://riafan.ru/1336735-ukraina-zakupit-tureckie-korvety-otkazavshis-ot-svoih-proektov

    Ukraine can't even pay for its own MIC to make its own corvettes...

    ...how about I post something from someone you love and respect... you...

    Hm abit later then originally planned but not by much also.

    Good for them they should be producing their own stuff like this was a mistake to allow ukraine to do it in the first place.

    You have to be self sufficient if you want to be a great military power

    Post number 111 on page 5 of this thread: https://www.russiadefence.net/t6498p100-domestic-production-of-marine-engines-for-russian-navy?highlight=ukraine

    Or possibly this:

    In October 2018, Mil.Press Today reported that Russian gas turbine engines still could not be called fully mass produced.
    For reference

    It is planned to mount Russian gas turbines on Project 22350 and Project 22350M frigates, Project 20386 corvettes (M90FR), Project 1164 guided missile cruisers, Project 1155 large ASW ships, Project 11356 patrol ships, Project 22800 corvettes, Project 1241 guided missile boats (M70FRU-R), and Project 12322 Zubr-class and Project 12061 Murena-class air cushion landing ships (M70FRU-2).

    Dmitry Zhavoronkov

    From the same thread... which I reproduce because it shows that these M70 and M90 gas turbines are actually used in quite a few different Russian ships and vessels and domestic production actually is worth it and it is not all about one ship.

    No Garry, Saturn doesn't produce engines for the 11356....I cannot believe people are starting to preach this lie. If Russia had or could produce the engines they never would have sold the ships in the first place.

    What do you mean... they were building 6 new ships for themselves and after three were finished they were blindsided by the maker of the engines of those ships... so they had three ships without engines... India wanted some more ships and bought two... if the Russians had no intention of completing these ships why sell two when they could have demanded they buy three... except if they wanted the third ship... they are buying two from Russia and making two more in India.

    No, they will not get 4

    They got 3 and there will always have only 3

    No engines

    They have engines, they just need a gearbox... which they could also sell to India for the two Grigorovich ships they will be building...

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    Post  hoom Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:05 am

    Some test firing by Grigorovich

    What do you reckon that is hitting the water close to camera right near the end?
    Surely its too far from the explosion to be shrapnel but it does seem to be coming from that direction.

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    Post  limb Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:15 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Yes, spend millions on R&D for one engine lol!

    They are better off selling it to India at least they will get something out of it.

    Ukraine has never backstabbed India before with deals about supplying parts. In fact, that so stupid to suggest and your personal bias is showing, why would Ukraine take the money and not deliver the engine? why would they pretty much mark themselves as someone who will not supply the parts when a contract was signed? over a bloody engine?.

    Why would they want to lose the revenue they get for supplying India the parts for those frigates? your assertion makes no sense and to put it bluntly is idoitic

    Zorya mashproekt is going to be bankrupt very soon and has dubious abilities to produce its products due to extreme corruption and brain drain.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:08 am

    Zorya Stroimash depended on the Russian market for its Soviet era products. Thanks to the lunatics in Khuyiv, it has lost this market.
    It does not have the resources to retool and put out a whole line of new products to replace the lost exports. This is a generic problem
    afflicting the Banderastan economy. Like the tank factories in Kharkov that can't make any new tanks and just refurbish garbage from
    the dump. True garbage, that was not properly mothballed. For example, the engines fail catastrophically after being put back into service.

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    Post  limb Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:09 am

    kvs wrote:Zorya Stroimash depended on the Russian market for its Soviet era products.   Thanks to the lunatics in Khuyiv, it has lost this market.
    It does not have the resources to retool and put out a whole line of new products to replace the lost exports.   This is a generic problem
    afflicting the Banderastan economy.   Like the tank factories in Kharkov that can't make any new tanks and just refurbish garbage from
    the dump.  True garbage, that was not properly mothballed.   For example, the engines fail catastrophically after being put back into service.


    How is india then counting on them to deliver their rust box engines?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:18 am

    What do you reckon that is hitting the water close to camera right near the end?
    Surely its too far from the explosion to be shrapnel but it does seem to be coming from that direction.

    The splash looks like a something discarded during a launch... it might not even be related to the missiles fired.

    And with that camera view it is actually not that close to the ship... depending on the magnification of the camera that could be quite a distance...

    If it was shrapnel there would be a large area of much smaller splashes... that looks more like something has launched and has dropped a part like a booster fragment or part of a lining that held the missile straight in the tube.

    It might even be unrelated... an anti diver grenade being launched as part of the "test" or something.

    How is india then counting on them to deliver their rust box engines?

    They probably offered to do it really cheap.

    Who knows where the money will go, but when they work it all out they will probably have to get Russia to make them instead.

    BTW should add.... nice video.... the first decent video I have seen of Shtil-1 (Naval vertical BUK) launches... thanks for posting.

    The more I watch it the more I think the splash is unrelated to the SAM missile launch.... it appears to be showing the smoke of the interception which could be several minutes after the missiles are launched... nothing from those launches would take that long to hit the water.


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:15 am; edited 1 time in total
    kvs
    kvs

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    Post  kvs Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:44 pm

    limb wrote:
    kvs wrote:Zorya Stroimash depended on the Russian market for its Soviet era products.   Thanks to the lunatics in Khuyiv, it has lost this market.
    It does not have the resources to retool and put out a whole line of new products to replace the lost exports.   This is a generic problem
    afflicting the Banderastan economy.   Like the tank factories in Kharkov that can't make any new tanks and just refurbish garbage from
    the dump.  True garbage, that was not properly mothballed.   For example, the engines fail catastrophically after being put back into service.


    How is india then counting on them to deliver their rust box engines?

    Iraq and Peru have learned the lesson the hard way. India clearly does not pay attention.

    Also, I am sure that there are still a few engines around left over from the "bad old days". But I have seen reports, which I can't find at the moment,
    where the refurbished tanks totally failed after leaving the "refurbishment line".

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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:14 pm

    kvs wrote:

    Also, I am sure that there are still a few engines around left over from the "bad old days".   But I have seen reports, which I can't find at the moment,
    where the refurbished tanks totally failed after leaving the "refurbishment line".


    They have been using post-soviet scrapyards for 3 decades now.
    Ukrainian armor depots were hit, burn and driven to death all over Africa.
    Assuming, that what is left, is not the best they had there, but the other Laughing
    When they were hit back with "sanctions", it turned out that they have faced just the same problems as Russia.
    Neither spare parts nor assistance from Russia.
    The difference is, Russia is keen to overcome those issues, reopen the production, or jump ahead a generation if there is no point in respiration a dead elephant.
    The time worked well for Russia, and bad for Ukraine.

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