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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Zivo
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    Post  Zivo on Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:36 am

    New Arena development.

    Much better looking than the previous version, more streamlined. Plus, it doesn't require a reworking of the ERA on the turret. They seem to be very thorough with radar coverage, I count 12 radars on the model, also 4 launchers with 3 cassettes each. Trophy has what, 4 radars and 2 launchers?

    This new version looks much easier to install on a variety of vehicles, as you could spread the radars/launchers out were needed. Looking at at how it's set up on the model, IMO is probably a very modular system, they might be able to easily add or remove radars and launchers to achieve maximum coverage for the vehicle it's protecting, maybe even against top attack munitions. I just hope they can keep the price reasonable.

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/07/blog-post_1710.html
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:47 am

    And it also means that future cooperation with Russia or any other country would be a risk to be compromised if ties reverse again.
    Irresponsible, but then as Flaming Python points out... now that they have decided to have a foot in both camps they really don't need any serious defence capability... just playing each off against the other should be enough.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:55 am

    Thanks for posting Zivo, not only has Arena been adapted and upgraded but the article also mentions the Standard and Afghanistan active protection systems being developed for the T-95 and Armata vehicles respectively which is rather interesting as well...
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    Post  medo on Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:42 pm

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/07/blog-post_7155.html

    Russian military tests new optical recce and command vehicle MRU-O.
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:48 am

    http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5803/128858542.d/0_815a9_b180c35b_XXL.jpg

    One thing I don't get, why no attempt to mount MMW Radar and the Optronics on some sort of raised platform or arm, so that the vehicle can hide and shoot over obstacles/terrain? The Optronics especially are in the lowest position pretty much possible.

    Something like on the awesome SBRM:

    http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6114/128858542.b/0_813b6_22064080_XXL.jpg
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    Post  medo on Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:21 am

    Missile guidance. Whit this kind of fast missile is quite important to have optics lower than missile launcher. If you clearly see your target, than missile will also clearly reach the target. If you have have target cowered by trees or bushes, than missile will also hit those trees and bushes and not reach the target. If you have optronics on tower, you will clearly see a target, but you will not see bushes and other obstacles under, which missile will hit. Optronics on tower are important for command vehicle, which deliver targets to the launching vehicles and coordinate the fighting.
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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 12 Empty Medvedev Calls for Faster Rearmament

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:32 am

    Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev called for an increase in the pace of Russian rearmament on Monday during a visit to an arms-making plant.

    "We need a different pace of rearmament, which is especially important considering the adoption of a unified system of pricing for weapons," Medvedev said.

    The prime minister added that recent decisions by the government to seek procurement of complete defense systems instead of disparate parts is a key part of improving Russian rearmament. He cited the situation with Iskander missile systems, which until recently have been delivered by separate elements rather than in complete sets.

    “So our decision on the need for these weapon systems to be delivered in complete sets is absolutely right.

    Iskander M missile systems are superior to their foreign counterparts and should become the core of the Ground Forces missile units, Medvedev said.

    “The Iskander M is without doubt one of the most effective systems in its class and, in our opinion, is ahead of foreign analogs,” he said.

    The Russian government has allocated 24 billion rubles ($750 million) to 17 arms-manufacturing enterprises for series production of the KBM Iskander mobile tactical ballistic missile system, Medvedev said during a visit to the Kolomna Machine-Building Bureau (KBM) which makes Iskander.

    "We have invested over 24 billion rubles in modernizing and building production capacity for series production of Iskander M missiles," Medvedev said.

    The enterprises concerned will invest another 16 billion rubles of their own funds in the program, he said.

    Iskander M, which is in production for the Russian armed forces, is a rapid response ballistic missile intended for precision strikes on high-value targets such as command posts, airfields, air-defense sites and opposing missile systems.

    Russia has previously threatened to deploy Iskanders in the Kaliningrad exclave if NATO deploys anti-missile defense systems in Poland.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120723/174740545.html
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:44 pm

    http://twower.livejournal.com/843717.html

    Photo report of the field camp bought from German by the MOD last year.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:53 am

    The low position of the optics means a low profile for the launcher after the missile is on its way. The missiles are raised to make sure they are clear of cover for launch.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:27 am

    Right, but if you had the optics on a mast similar to the missiles, you could hide the vehicle behind cover/shoot over difficult terrain.
    The current config would interfere with LOS obstacles.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:33 am

    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/07/26/lynx/

    Another day, another Lynx order!
    According to article, MOD wants to increase Lynx buy in 2013-2015 from 727 to 3000 units.
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    Post  medo on Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:35 pm

    TR1 wrote:Right, but if you had the optics on a mast similar to the missiles, you could hide the vehicle behind cover/shoot over difficult terrain.
    The current config would interfere with LOS obstacles.

    To be honest, constructing such vehicles is also making compromises. If you place more lifting towers inside, than you have lower number of missiles, less space for autoloader, etc. Anyway, Krizanthema have missile launcher lifter quite high over vehicles roof, radar is also higher than roof and optical sight in somewhere in the roof level, so the vehicle could be still behind cover.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:31 am

    You also have to think in practical terms... a single bush in the middle of a field with a missile and optics sticking above it... fire a burst of AP cannon fire at the bush... your vehicle is not really that safe... unless there is a large rock conveniently behind the bush in front of the vehicle.

    Equally the time to raise the arm and optics plus the problems with that sort of weight that high up would likely limit the vehicle in terms of its mobility.

    The main reason the Krisantema has that big arm holding the missiles is because that same arm is used to reach down beside the vehicle to load ammo from a vehicle sitting beside the TEL vehicle.

    Having optics on top of the launcher arm would only be half the solution as this missile uses radar guidance as standard with laser beam riding as a backup, so the large radar antenna on the vehicle would need to be on the weapon arm as well.

    This vehicle will be engaging targets from 4-6km so I suspect it would be more useful for the vehicle to be able to fire two missiles and then start slowly moving away would be more useful than finding cover that is tall enough to hide the vehicle but no so high that the arm launcher/sensor package can't see over.
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    Post  Austin on Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:25 pm

    WoW some nice factory model of Boomerang and Kurganets-25

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.in/2012/07/blog-post_29.html
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    Post  Zivo on Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:31 pm

    Those guns on the Armata model's turret. 45mm? Shocked
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    Post  AZZKIKR on Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:08 pm

    The turret of what appears to be the Armata MBT variant seems different from what I expected. Idk it looks like a challenger turret with a russian curvature twist on it, but the turret does seem like it might extend to the rear of the tank with a bustle, in a way like a curved black eagle turret if one thinks about it. This also might mean that the turret isnt unmanned, as cameras might not be as beneficial as human eyesight and instinct in some cases, since afterall MBT's serve as essentially the "frontline" of the unit, like a robbery happening in a mall, the guard panics nd doesnt know which screen to look at. Sensors serve better on a 2nd tier unit like the Koalitsiya , as they are way behind enemy lines.

    The gun might be a 152mm, due to the reinforced mantlet of the gun, whic might hinder gun changing if it needs be, but the russians probably thought of that.
    The chassis appears to have 6 roadwheels, as expected, and with that shape of the turret and length, it supplements the notion that the T-99's turret is inded akin to a more western design, essentially having an overhanging bustle.

    The 45mm, seems like a rapid departure to the more traditional HMG, but as the back of the turret cannot be seen, I cannot say anythig much. So the 45mm cannon probably will be used to engage softer targets like IFV's and APC;s, so the 152mm gun wouldnt need to waste ammunition. Another modification that could be made was the 45mm essentially firing a grenade round, making it useful for engaging enemies in urban environments. Though what worries me about thr 45mm cannon is the amount of ammunition. Might not be an issue, since T-99 MBT's will have back up in the form of like BMP-T variant to support it.
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    Post  TR1 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:39 pm

    GurKhan says it is not a fact that is Armata, and I tend to agree, I think Armata will be very different.
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    Post  Zivo on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:29 am

    How much different could Armata be? With all the sensors, comms equipment, 45mm ammo, Arena 2, and the auto loader, the turret really cannot get much smaller.

    I watched the video a few times, if you look at the very left side of the picture of the tank, that square-ish protrusion above the "box" that trails back from the gun appears to be the commanders sight. I really wish the camera guy got a better shot of the tank though, what a tease. The best part of the video is at 2:10. Laughing
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    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:15 am

    Who said Armata will have 45mm cannon in addition to main caliber ? o.O

    All other Armata renders have very different turrets, this one seems large for an unmanned turret- the whole point is to decrease size and weight.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:21 am

    This also might mean that the turret isnt unmanned, as cameras might not be as beneficial as human eyesight and instinct in some cases, since afterall MBT's serve as essentially the "frontline" of the unit, like a robbery happening in a mall, the guard panics nd doesnt know which screen to look at. Sensors serve better on a 2nd tier unit like the Koalitsiya , as they are way behind enemy lines.

    The turret will definitely be unmanned, this has already been stated.

    Regarding looking at monitors... it is actually rather likely that the commanders panoramic sight will have stereo cameras and the images from those cameras will be displayed in a helmet mounted display system for a virtual view of the outside world. Only the commander needs that sort of view, the driver and gunner would find it distracting from their duties, though occasionally popping up and getting a good high view of the terrain in front of the vehicle might be useful for the driver it is most important for the commander.

    Panic is part of war. Training is what allows the crewman to focus on their job at hand and use the available sensors and equipment to determine what is happening... potentially including live video feed from nearby vehicles or even UAVs.

    The gun might be a 152mm, due to the reinforced mantlet of the gun, whic might hinder gun changing if it needs be, but the russians probably thought of that.

    Modern very high velocity tank guns wear out and lose performance... and that includes smoothbores. Changing a gun barrel is a routine thing that should be possible in the field and not require the vehicle to be taken out of service for a long period.

    The chassis appears to have 6 roadwheels, as expected, and with that shape of the turret and length, it supplements the notion that the T-99's turret is inded akin to a more western design, essentially having an overhanging bustle.

    Turret bustles are not "western" inventions. The T-34 had a turret bustle of sorts. Western turrets have three crew, this turret has zero. Look at the plastic models of all the vehicles... the pictures I looked at show three crew around an engine compartment at the front... Kurganets, Boomerang, and Armata.

    The 45mm, seems like a rapid departure to the more traditional HMG, but as the back of the turret cannot be seen, I cannot say anythig much. So the 45mm cannon probably will be used to engage softer targets like IFV's and APC;s, so the 152mm gun wouldnt need to waste ammunition. Another modification that could be made was the 45mm essentially firing a grenade round, making it useful for engaging enemies in urban environments. Though what worries me about thr 45mm cannon is the amount of ammunition. Might not be an issue, since T-99 MBT's will have back up in the form of like BMP-T variant to support it.

    We need to translate this correctly:

    Said Victor Ivanovich wants a little more precise: in the picture all the same machine is not a 57mm gun and 45mm with the latest automatic weapon with a telescopic ammunition. The same module will not only stand on the platforms, "Kurgan" and "Boomerang" but the "Armata" in the form of heavy infantry fighting vehicles.

    The key issue is that the 30mm cannon on the Russian IFV is intended to deal with enemy IFVs and helos and other problems. It has been the case that the 30mm is not adequate to deal with 30 ton western IFVs so the BMP-4 was to have gone either for a 45mm or 57mm gun which is nothing like a grenade launcher... we are talking about a high velocity powerful round with armour penetration figures in the 200-300mm range at 1,500m.

    Keep in mind that this 45/57mm weapon will have an entire unmanned turrets space for ammo so it should be able to carry plenty of ammo.
    The quote above says that the IFV in each family will have either a 45mm or 57mm calibre gun... and that is in the kurgan, the boomerang, and the Armata families IFV. With this weapon these vehicles will be able to take care of enemy Warriors and Bradleys and Pumas etc. For use against enemy tanks of course there will be 125mm gun armed boomerangs, kurgans, and armatas.

    The question is will this 45/57mm round be brand new using telescoping ammo for powerful but compact and easy to load ammo, or old 57mm powerful but bulky rounds?

    The laser homing rounds developed for the old 57mm could be adapted to a new 57mm round of course that is more compact and uses far more powerful propellent and more effective projectiles.

    By the look of the photos of the models the Boomerang and Kurgan both have their engine in the front right corner with three crew positions around it in the hull which likely means unmanned turrets, which is more room for ammo and sensors.

    Just looking at this photo for example:
    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 12 Cgljcn10
    From left to right you can see the corner of the Taifun truck, but the next two wheeled vehicles are clearly Boomerangs with the first having what appears to be a 120mm mortar in a turret and the second a 45/57mm turret denoting a Mortar Boomerang-25 and IFV Boomerang-25 respectively, the next vehicle has the same IFV turret with a 45/57mm gun, but the chassis is tracked so this is a Kurganets-25 IFV. The same turret on an Armata chassis is what the Armata IFV will look like and all three vehicles will have the same sensors and weapons and ammo and electronic suites. There is likely a 4 and 6 wheel version of Boomerang that will also have the same turret for the IFV version.
    The next vehicle in line I suspect is the tank version of the Kurganets-25 as it is tracked, but is not armata and the gun will therefore likely be initially a 125mm gun, later to be a 152mm gun if possible with that chassis. There will likely be a boomerang-25 with a similar turret and an armata with a similar turret too. I rather suspect it is stripped of its electronics and defences like ARENA and Shtora and its UAV system, but this is what the bare bones turret will look like.

    Who said Armata will have 45mm cannon in addition to main caliber ?

    The purpose of a 30mm cannon on T-95 was to allow the engagement of targets the main gun of a tank could not elevate to engage like rocket launchers on the 5th floor of a building.

    Looking at the elevation of the main gun for the tank vehicle I would say there would be no need for a 45/57 or 30mm cannon if the main gun can elevate that far.

    Of course the whole idea of the BMPT was that BMPs and BTRs were not able to operate where tanks operate, so Armata doesn't need a high elevation weapon of any kind as it will be operating with BMPs and BTRs with the same level of protection with weapons easily able to elevate to hit all sorts of threats and targets. Having said that a high elevation weapon certainly wouldn't hurt in the guise of a 30mm or 40mm automatic grenade launcher or 14.5mm HMG or light cannon like a 30mm. I think a 45/57mm is getting too big and its ammo would take up too much room.

    I do however like the idea the Israelis apply where they add a 60mm mortar to their tanks for engaging targets with HE without wasting tank main gun ammo.

    Low velocity ammo with a very curved trajectory is often useful against a range of threats like an enemy firing from behind strong frontal cover... it is often more effective to lob low velocity shells over the cover to land on their heads rather than waste ammo trying to bash through their frontal protection.

    Often in urban situations there will be a staging area back from the fighting area where the enemy group and prepare for combat. You might get no direct line of sight of that sort of activity from your tank even though it is only a couple of blocks away. With live footage from a UAV however you could direct a burst of 40mm grenades to come raining down on the enemies heads. Standard 40mm grenades for the new Balkan grenade launcher have a range of 2.5km but it would certainly be rather easy to have special grenades designed with larger warheads and less propellent that have a range of 600m or less with really steep trajectories especially for the purpose of engaging targets that are close.

    Note the whole purpose of a howitzer was for that steep plunging fire. A gun generally has long range and high velocity and therefore a very flat trajectory. It also has an angle limit so it can't shoot at high angles. This means that a target on the ground between buildings in a city is actually quite safe from a gun because the shallow angle of impact means it will hit a building in front of them rather than the ground next to them.
    The other issue is that the HE shell tends to hit at an angle so half the fragments go into the ground and a quarter go straight up in the air so only a few fragments go sideways and are effective when shooting at targets at close range.
    A howitzer on the other hand, has a multi charge propellent, which means when firing at something close by you can reduce the charge weight so the shell doesn't go up as high or stay in the air so long so it is much more accurate because it spends less time being blown off course by the wind. It also gets to the target quicker and tends to land nearly vertically, which means with a fuse in the nose and the sides of the shell creating the fragments you get a nice circular spread of fragments that are much more effective... more effective still if you fit it with a proximity fuse and detonate it above ground and spread the fragments over a wider area.

    If you want to kill people then go for a howitzer... if you want to kill enemy artillery (ie howitzers) then go for guns as they have superior range.

    Interesting from the photos of the models it seems there is a truck mounted Coalition and presumably a tracked model on an Armata chassis and that it seems to have a single gun. That gun will be 152mm in calibre of course and with current ammo have a range of 40km and with new ammo 80km with Glonass guidance kits for accuracy of 10m CEP at max range... which is pretty good.
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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 12 Empty Boomerang and Kurganets-25

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:37 am

    BTW if you look carefully at both pictures and allow for the different camera angles the tank gun turret on the Kurganets-25 in the photo I posted above is not that different from the Armata tank model... allowing for the fact that the armata will have a larger turret ring designed for a 152mm gun, and that the turret structure above the turret ring, while still low profile might also conceal a 30mm cannon as it does in the armata model.

    Of course as I mention above if the main gun has the elevation depicted in the photo of the armata MBT model then there is little need for an extra cannon because if the 125mm gun is too much then the coaxial 30 cal mg could do the job, or perhaps a coaxial 14.5mm gun might be useful for its extra range and hitting power. I would think a low velocity weapon might also be useful like a 40mm grenade launcher... perhaps with dual feed low velocity heavier warhead grenades for within 600m and standard high velocity grenades with a range of 2.5km and standard warheads.

    Or perhaps some holes drilled into the barrel of the grenade launcher that can be opened to reduce range with standard ammo, and then closed for longer range use. A longer barrel model for vehicle use could perhaps extend range to 3-4km.
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    Post  TR1 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:51 pm

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/blog-post_12.html

    New tank uniforms.
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:45 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GYXlW1rCyNI#!

    Nice vid, track change on MSTA-S.
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:17 pm

    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 12 Image_502b83244e0a9

    T-72s @ UVZ, presumably for modernization.

    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 12 Image_502b832c73671

    T-90SA for Algeria.

    Russian Ground Forces: News #1 - Page 12 Image_502b8341a6e8c

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:21 am

    Nice.

    Hopefully they are making a good profit from that contract.

    Also I hope the Russian Army has ordered T-72 upgrades as most of the components for the upgrades will be made by companies that probably need the work, and the experience and money from this production should allow improvements in the improved versions and equipment going into the next gen stuff in armata and kurg and the two boomerangs...

    The initial focus should be to get tanks into service with digital data communication systems, and night vision equipment and of course battle management computer systems so that they can start training with it day and night and learn how to operate and also control such forces.

    Other things like experimental new APS systems and new ammo could also be tested and put into service... production could reduce the average cost of each item and the investment into the companies should generate revenue they could put into further development and improvements

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