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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:12 pm

    Both Bumerang and Kurganets "revealed" o.O :

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/

    Scroll down.
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    Post  Zivo on Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:08 pm

    The look very NATO-esque.

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    Post  TR1 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:35 pm

    Most modern APCs and IFVs have that look, not just NATO.
    Optimal configuration I guess.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:46 pm

    TR1 wrote:Both Bumerang and Kurganets "revealed" o.O :

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/

    Scroll down.

    Kurganets looks like BMP-3
    Bumerang is sth new
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:47 pm

    Kurganets is completely new, no BMP-3 relation.

    Only similarity I see is somewhat similar looking wheels.
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    Post  AJ-47 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:18 pm

    Here is a link for the show with many picyures from Army Recognition:

    http://www.armyrecognition.com/forum_engineering_technologies_defence_exhibition_2012_pictures_photos_images_video_moscow_russia_.html
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:04 am

    APCs are just angled shaped boxes on wheels or tracks... there is not much room for variation.

    Of course the armour structures and thicknesses and weights separates them... as does their armaments.

    Interesting models... look forward to seeing the full sized vehicles.

    BTW at 25 tons neither of these two vehicles are much like any BMP or BTR... which are both much lighter vehicles.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:33 pm

    Is it possible that the APC version of the Boomerang will have doors at the sides? Otherwise there will be some trouble disembaking as fast as on the BTRs. It looks like there is a little space between the first pair of wheels and the next pair, conceivably a door could be added..
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    Post  TR1 on Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:41 pm

    Yeah I was hoping the new APC would have both side doors + ramp.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:02 am

    I have read that they want to keep the side doors because in an ambush situation when being attacked from one side or the other it is safer being able to get out from the sides. If you can imagine if the only ways out are the rear ramp and the roof then when the APC or IFV turns to face the firepower that initiated the ambush and the rear ramp opens and the rear attack component of the ambush opens up with machine guns and small arms fire into the rear facing open ramp all your troops are suddenly exposed. In comparison the side doors only expose those about to disembark... plus side doors offer flexibility and having three points of exit not counting the vulnerable roof hatches means getting in and out should be measurably faster... which can be critical.
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    Post  Zivo on Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:21 am

    TR1 wrote:Yeah I was hoping the new APC would have both side doors + ramp.

    Looking at the 8x8, I don't think it could have one on the right side because of the size of the rather large engine compartment. Left side maybe.
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    Post  George1 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:42 pm

    Putin Calls for New Ground Forces Equipment

    Russian President Vladimir Putin called on the country's arms designers and manufacturers on Tuesday to begin work on new small arms, body armor and communications equipment for the infantry and airborne forces.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin called on the country's arms designers and manufacturers on Tuesday to begin work on new small arms, body armor and communications equipment for the infantry and airborne forces.

    "We need new solutions for equipping our soldiers, for small arms, individual communications and body armor," Putin said at a meeting in Sochi on the theme of the State Armaments Program and Infantry and Airborne Forces. "I call on you to start design and research work in these fields," he added.
    Putin noted that research and development for the ground forces accounted for just ten percent of their equipment budget.
    "And for the airborne forces its less than five percent," Putin said. "At the same time, over 75 percent of the total finance goes to five research projects. That is a huge disbalance. This means that there are many important areas of armament development and military equipment which go without vital funding," he said.
    Putin said nine S-300 air defense missile systems must enter service with the Army by 2020.
    “Ten Iskander-M tactical missile launchers, nine S-300V4 air defense missile systems, more than 2,300 tanks, about 2,000 self-propelled artillery systems and mobile guns, as well as more than 30,000 vehicles must enter service with the Russian Army,” Putin said.
    “Beyond that, the deployment of new control and communication systems, advanced reconnaissance systems and military equipment is planned,” the president said.
    By 2020, the government will spend over 2.6 trillion rubles ($79.8 billion) to arm the Airborne Forces and the Army, Putin continued. The overall value of the national rearmament program will reach 20 trillion rubles ($614 billion).


    http://worldwide-defence.blogspot.com/2012/07/putin-calls-for-new-ground-forces.html
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    Post  Zivo on Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:17 pm

    Those number seem very optimistic. But who knows, maybe the new modular vehicle platforms are cheaper and easier to manufacture than I think.

    2300 Armata's would be damn impressive.
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:05 pm

    Manufacturing those numbers by 2020 isn't a problem, but cost wise it is indeed a big question mark.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:06 am

    Numbers were always going to be an issue because the Heavy brigades are going to be more expensive to buy and operate... they will be harder to transport and use more fuel when moving around.

    In a standard current brigade, whether it is a tank brigade or motor rifle brigade, the regiments of MBTs are the most expensive vehicles in the unit.

    In a heavy brigade all the vehicles will be MBT weight vehicles with vehicles like the AD vehicles adding expensive sensors like 3D and AESA radars etc etc.

    You don't need hundreds of heavy brigades.

    The medium brigades will be tracked or wheeled units, while the light brigades will be all wheeled units, so these will likely be much cheaper in terms of purchasing (though all those thermal sights and communications (datalink) and computers etc wont be cheap as such.

    The standardisation of vehicles and electronics and weapons and systems and ammo should reduce costs and the introduction of smart and guided weapons should mean that instead of needing 60 120mm mortar shells a SAU might get away with less than half that.

    The light brigades should be much cheaper than a current brigade, but it should also be much more mobile and when taking into account the full integration of artillery in the new structure they should actually be very powerful units.

    Previously the organic artillery in a Russian brigade or division was for direct fire support as well as suppression et al. With the new C4IR structures Brigades will be able to cooperate much better and a light brigade can go in on an attack supported by an artillery regiment from a heavy brigade firing GLONASS guided shells with a CEP of 10m or less at ranges of up to 80kms away...

    Even an exotic weapon like the 240mm Tulip offers first round kill probabilities no other artillery system can offer... with a 130kg shell for targets in mountains or cities where buildings or steep mountains block the angled shot of a conventional gun or howitzer, the near vertical fall of a mortar round can be dropped right on target and with trajectory shaping and Glonass guidance with perhaps an air burst fuse a large group of enemy in the open are in serious danger. Equally a 130kg falling mortar bomb with a delayed fuse could probably deal with people in the basements of buildings too...

    You wouldn't need thousands, but mountain units would benefit with such a system.
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:06 pm

    http://twower.livejournal.com/830898.html

    Tigr showing what ambush proof means.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:37 am

    Correct me if I'm wrong (the translation really sucked) but in one part of the article it said something about one of the soldiers being "lightly scratched" by a bullet. Does that mean one of the rounds got through?

    Also, have there been any attempts to improve the Tigr's mine protection? Because lets face it, if those militants had used a few kilograms of TNT instead of SVDs and Kalashnikovs, that Tigr would be in pieces.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:56 am

    I think one round penetrated from an SVD.

    AFAIK there are heavily armoured models of Tigr that offer better levels of protection.

    Just the same as the original Humvees were not armoured initially and even an AK round would penetrate them.

    These vehicles are not for replacing armoured vehicles, they basically replace jeep type vehicles.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:14 am

    An SVD AP round got through, but after coming out of the armor and door, had barely any energy left.

    Some good shooting on the part of the bandits too- driver was clearly targeted. Sucks for them they targeted a Tigr >Very Happy !

    If that was an UAZ, we would be reading about dead servicemen.
    So how would Iveco have done in that situation, is the relevant question.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:49 am

    The reality is that there is no level of protection you can fit that an insurgent can't defeat in time.

    More armour on the door and all of a sudden you need hydraulics to open and close the doors...

    When the bad guys fail... like they did this time, the next time they will likely try something different... of course the idea is to kill them each time they try to keep their numbers down.

    If the threat level is so high that a Tigr is not going to be safe... then use a heavier vehicle like a Taifun or even a Boomerang-10... when it is ready.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:52 am

    What would be better than heavier armour would be a remote weapon station fitted with a KPV 14.5mm HMG, a PKT MMG and a 30mm grenade launcher and an acoustic sniper detection system to locate the shooters and engage them directly. A light standoff ceramic plate would also be useful too.
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:42 am

    http://saidpvo.livejournal.com/74710.html

    Excellent pics of PVO equipment @ TVM-2012.
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    Post  Pugnax on Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:58 pm

    The vehicle was severely penetrated...look at the lesson of the pre war "invulnerable humvee"...to know its story and not upgrade to match is sheer folly.The door penetration must have severely wounded occupants and it was only a 7.62 by the caption.
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:23 pm

    Pugnax wrote:The vehicle was severely penetrated...look at the lesson of the pre war "invulnerable humvee"...to know its story and not upgrade to match is sheer folly.The door penetration must have severely wounded occupants and it was only a 7.62 by the caption.


    The only round that penned was AP SVD, and it lightly injured someone. That's it.
    Severe penetration never happened, the only round that got through barely had ay energy left.
    Keep in mind that is not even up armored Tigr (and still, is far better armored than basic HUMVEE).
    I wonder if that vehicle was not fitted with that cloth material we saw on the inside of other Tigrs, it would have caught the round I think.

    There was another Tigr that was ambushed, and shot with machine guns + RPG, nobody died as well.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:05 am

    This vehicle is the low end model, the Humvee equivalent wont even stop a standard ball assault rifle cartridge.

    The game is action and reaction and will continue.

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