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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1

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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 29 Empty Re: PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  TR1 Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:28 am

    http://russianplanes.net/planelist/Antonov/An-22

    Mindstorm, at this point less than 10 An-22s are flying in the RuAF, though some of them were recently restored, so the fleet is in actual better shape than 10 years ago.

    That being said as a whole Russia's air-lift ability is huge by any nations standard, and the VTA plans through 2025 are pretty comprehensive.
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    Post  Austin Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:59 am

    All informative post Mindstorm.

    I think the only Tu-22M3 capable of delivering Kh-555/101 series missile would be perhaps the 30 upgraded Tu-22M3M


    Mindstorm wrote:B-2 ,clearly, is NOT the counterpart of TU-160 ; in facts the unique real role that strategic bombers would have, in the very unlucky event of a full scale conflict between very powerful opponents not involving ICBM (in this instance relevance of any branch of Air Forces of both side would be next to ZERO and the only elements at count would be efficiency of ICBM and strategic IADs elements) , would be to take-off ,reach in the lesser time possible useful point of delivery for strategic range cruise missiles -with conventional or nuclear warheads ,at second of the typology of conflict- aimed at the most critical enemy assets (C-4 nodes, main airfields, main radar stations, satellite's data relay) land ,reload and repeat the sequence with the shortest cycle possible.

    Good Point and one of the reasons I belive the PAK-FA bomber will be Supersonic Bomber and not subsonic as rumours says is being looked at a-la B-2 but with better stealth.

    For Russia that has huge land mass and very few if any Air Bases Overseas , Time to reach a point quickly fire its cruise missile and return back is a critical parameter , something a Mach 2 supersonic Bomber can do it well compared to subsonic one.

    I wonder if not hypersonic will they try to push the Mach number of PAK-DA to higher supersonic like Mach 3 - 3.5

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    Post  Austin Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:54 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:integrated ground-space system ( Project "Aquarel")

    Mindstorm whats that , any more details ?
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:18 am


    I wonder if not hypersonic will they try to push the Mach number of PAK-DA to higher supersonic like Mach 3 - 3.5

    There is a reason the richest country in the world withdrew their only Mach 3 aircraft... it was just too expensive to operate.

    The simple fact is that moving from mach 2 to mach 3 means you need far more expensive materials and engine technology... and the difference for a missile carrier is not even relevant.

    Like I have been saying... the cheapest but still effective option would be to make a flying wing with a horizontal tail to allow supersonic flight... With modern 5th gen bomber engines supercruising would become an easy option and a bypass chamber that allows fuel to be added and burned like a ramjet that is designed for supersonic combustion you could have a very fast bomber that supercruises to the target area at mach 1.5 and then accelerates to mach 3 or more using air bypassing the jet engines and acting like a scramjet for a short period... the aircraft surface would have to endure heating for a period but not the whole flight so it can be made from cheaper materials.

    Werent there plans to finish those Tu-160 airframes left in the factories during the cold war? If its doen how many millions will it cost?

    They already have. If they could have gotten the 18 odd that the Ukraine tried to black mail them with then they could have had a decent force of about 30 odd, but most of the factories that made the aircraft components are now in the Ukraine and without work all this time no longer exist.

    One of the critical components is an aluminium box beam that is at the centre of the aircrafts design structurally... and that can no longer be made.
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    Post  Austin Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:50 am

    What ever they do from PAK-DA i hope its as stealthy if not better as US NGB under development and its supersonic atleast as good as Tu-160.
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    Post  collegeboy16 Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:16 pm

    Austin wrote:What ever they do from PAK-DA i hope its as stealthy if not better as US NGB under development and its supersonic atleast as good as Tu-160.
    Hmm, to nitpick I think the proper analogue would be the NNGB?(2037? bomber)
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:58 pm

    Russia's air lift capability is huge but I really don't think Russia needs that because maintaining a huge air lift capability is an extremely expensive exercise. More importantly the rail network around Russia is so very extensive that supplies can reach every nook of the country at short notices .

    Huge air lift capabilities are generally maintained by countries that plan on invading foreign countries thousands of miles away or as in the case of India and China due to the inhospitable terrain that limits rail transport making it imperative for the armies to depend on air transport.
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    Post  Austin Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:57 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Russia's air lift capability is huge but I really don't think Russia needs that because maintaining a huge air lift capability is an extremely expensive exercise. More importantly the rail network around Russia is so very extensive that supplies can reach every nook of the country at short notices .

    Huge air lift capabilities are generally maintained by countries that plan on invading foreign countries thousands of miles away or as in the case of India and China due to the inhospitable terrain that limits rail transport making it imperative for the armies to depend on air transport.

    Well Russia is also a very huge country like 7 times the size of India and with small population base , Weather can be extreme and that can cause disturbances with Rail and Road network and to cover long distances quickly you need Air Transport.

    Not to forget Russia has to take care of CSTO members and also areas of interest that it has strategic interest in so you need large fleet of Air Transport to cover these and their new doctrine that base on Quick Mobility.

    Russia probably needs more Transport wing then it has now but there is also financial limitations in having that
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    Post  Austin Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:46 am

    So just to clarify on the engine front the new engine is it the Type 30 or something else ?

    "I opened the secret and say that we actually already have two engines of the 5th generation. Second, which is conventionally called the" Type 30 ", has been tested in flight on a fighter" T-50 ". Later he probably will the name of "Al-...". By its parameters it a 15-25 percent superior to the "117th
    ". "
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:23 am

    Well we knew they were making a 5th gen fighter engine... I am more interested in the other 5th gen engine... do they mean that PD-14 engine they were working on for big aircraft?
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    Post  Austin Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:28 am

    GarryB wrote:Well we knew they were making a 5th gen fighter engine... I am more interested in the other 5th gen engine... do they mean that PD-14 engine they were working on for big aircraft?

    No not PD-14 but Type 30 for PAK-FA it seems it is 15-25 % better than 117 the curent engine for PAK-FA

    So my question was they said Type 30 was ready but we know they are working on new engine , so are they working on two 5th Gen Engine for PAK-FA ? Or its the same one
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    Post  Austin Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:20 pm

    Indo-Russian FGFA/PMF model reveled at AeroIndia 2013

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 29 %253D%253Futf-8%253FB%253FSU1HLTIwMTMwMjA1LTAxMTk1LmpwZw%253D%253D%253F%253D-704778

    More pictures here FIRST PHOTOS: The 5th Gen Sukhoi-HAL Prospective Multirole Fighter
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    Post  Zivo Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:57 pm

    I was hoping for a more detailed model of a serial FGFA at AeroIndia.
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    Post  Cyberspec Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:23 pm

    Some interesting stuff posted on Paralay's forum...

    Air Intakes Masking Device
    http://www.freepatent.ru/patents/2362110

    IR & Radar Signature reduction device
    http://www.freepatent.ru/patents/2413161

    These aren't necessarily the final solutions but it gives an idea on what they're working on.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:25 pm

    So my question was they said Type 30 was ready but we know they are working on new engine , so are they working on two 5th Gen Engine for PAK-FA ? Or its the same one

    Working on two engines designed to fit into the same aircraft that would therefore be the same size and weight and presumably thrust and performance would be a big waste of resources.

    The Type-30 is the final series production engine for the PAK FA... there were fears it wouldn't be ready till 2018 and that early serial aircraft would take to the skies with prototype engines and that the final 5th gen engines would be fitted later when they were ready.

    It now seems like the engines are ready before the serial aircraft, which is good because it means more experience time for the new engines so any bugs can be worked out.

    No not PD-14 but Type 30 for PAK-FA it seems it is 15-25 % better than 117 the curent engine for PAK-FA

    So if they are not working on the PD-14 as a 5th gen engine then perhaps they are working on a new bomber engine for the PAK DA. The only other alternative would be a new engine for a heavy subsonic transport, or the new subsonic CAS aircraft or last a high speed UCAV.

    Those are the only likely candidates for a new engine and I suspect a variable cycle engine for a supersonic bomber would make the most sense... they could design it to operate as a ramjet for high speed flight to increase performance... especially in supercruise.

    A normal turbojet chokes on supersonic air so when flying at mach 2 a turbojet reduces the size of its intake to reduce the airflow so when it gets to the engine it is subsonic and can burn fuel and produce thrust. If they can design a scramjet bypass flow chamber the supersonic air can be sucked in, fuel added and burned and a much larger volume of much faster air can leave the exhaust generating considerably more thrust than from a standard engine.

    Using its hot core you could make very large engines for heavy aircraft with a large propfan added to improve performance at subsonic speed, so it could be the basis of a range of aircraft engines just like the D-30 from the Mig-31 is also used as the basis of the engine in the Il-76 and A-42 Albatross etc.

    [quoteI was hoping for a more detailed model of a serial FGFA at AeroIndia. [/quote]

    That is a bit unrealistic considering they haven't even got a serial PAK FA ready yet and it has a lot of testing to do yet.

    These aren't necessarily the final solutions but it gives an idea on what they're working on.

    Any single component doesn't need to be perfect and offer complete protection... it is like tank armour... ERA on their own are not good enough to protect any vehicle, but together with other technologies like modern composite armour structures, APS, ECM/ESM suites, DIRCM, Nakidka, etc etc and suddenly that vehicle is very well protected from a much wider range of threats. Different protection strategies offer best protection against a few specific things but when combined with other protections the coverage becomes more effective over a wider spectrum.
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    Post  Cyberspec Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:38 pm

    What I meant was that these are publicly available patents and we've seen several of those over the past couple of years. It doesn't mean these exact devices will be implemented although I suspect it will be if not exactly the same then something similar.

    I haven't read the patent properly yet but the "shroud" for the engine exhaust is interesting. It seems it can be deployed and retracted depending on the situation.
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    Post  Russian Patriot Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:29 am

    BANGALORE (India), February 6 (RIA Novosti) - India is to equip its Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF) variant of the Russian T-50 fifth-generation combat aircraft with avionics similar to Russia’s version of the plane, United Aircraft Corporation President Mikhail Pogosyan said on Wednesday.

    “The future plane (PMF) will have not only the same airframe, but also an integrated system of onboard equipment,” Pogosyan said, stressing this was a requirement of the Indian Air Force.

    Details of the PMF design will be specified after the relevant contracts with India are signed, he said.

    The PMF will have such advanced features as stealth, supersonic cruise speed, high maneuverability, an integrated set of avionics, and an advanced threat-warning system, according to Sukhoi.

    The fighter is being developed on the basis of the Russian perspective aviation complex (PAK FA), of which T-50 is a prototype, to India's stringent technical requirements. Further development of the program envisages design and development of a two-seat variant and integration of an advanced engine with increased thrust. The two sides are supposed to cooperate in joint marketing of the aircraft in other countries.

    Analysts say India's choice of Russian avionics is a logical step and in line with previous joint programs.

    “It would be reasonable to assume that the model adopted for India’s Su-30MKI [fighter jet purchase from Russia] would be continued with regard to its purchase of Russia’s fifth-generation fighter, based on the Sukhoi T-50 prototype," said Douglas Barrie, air warfare analyst at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.

    "The Indian Su-30MKI has some non Russian-standard avionics systems, but the baseline platform, propulsion and sensors are very much Russian, with final assembly of the aircraft in India. The PMF will, I suspect, be to all intents the production standard of the T-50, again perhaps with some non-Russian avionics and systems,” he added.

    The PMF project began following a Russian-Indian agreement on cooperation in the development and production of perspective multirole fighter, signed on October 18, 2007. In December 2010 Russian arms sales agency Rosoboronexport, India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and aircraft maker Sukhoi Company signed a preliminary design development contract for the new aircraft.

    In mid-January, Russia's prototype Sukhoi T-50 made out its first long-range flight from a manufacturing plant in Russia’s Far East to an airfield near Moscow. The plane flew 7,000 kilometers (4,350 miles), making two landings on the way.

    The plane joined three other T-50 prototype models at the Zhukovsky flight test center, prior to state flight tests which are scheduled to start in March 2013. A fifth prototype aircraft is being built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur factory in Siberia.

    The T-50 first flew in January 2010 and was presented to the public at the Moscow Air Show in 2011. The Russian Defense Ministry is planning to finish the state flight tests of eight prototypes by 2015, with production starting around 2016.

    The T-50, which will be the core of Russia's future fighter fleet, is a fifth-generation multirole combat aircraft featuring elements of "stealth" technology, super-maneuverability, super-cruise capability (supersonic flight without use of afterburner), and an advanced avionics suite including an X-band active phased-array radar.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20130206/179261409/India-to-Use-Russian-Avionics-For-Future-Fighter---UAC-Boss.html
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    Post  Cyberspec Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:13 am

    The PMF/FGFA might be ready by 2015 according to the latest Lenta.ru report.

    ___________


    Regarding the rear radar speculation on the T-50

    I was looking through some old and new discussions in various places. Possible candidate (most likely IMO) is a development of the 'Epaulet-A' that was shown a few years back and was mentioned as part of the tech (test bed at the time) associated with the Pak Fa.

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 29 Th_201777801_Epolet_A_122_219lo

    ..

    Another interesting theory is that it might be a Russian "MADL" that is planned for the F-35

    Multifunction Advanced Data Link
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunction_Advanced_Data_Link


    Although the location seems a bit odd for a data link
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    Post  Viktor Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:56 am

    T-50 will have SH121 radar complex comprising of 5 radar systems all combined in a single picture.

    of course there is DAS like system also that is implemented in MIG-35 and T-50.

    Here is 1500+ T/R module AESA radar

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 29 2a63w51

    And here is location of other 4 radar.

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 29 2zovzar

    T-50 is actually like US AEGIS system of the air in radar/optical/IC/laser spectrum.

    And that`s why it needs 18t trust engine with the combine force of 36 ton to power those radar systems to Very Happy Very Happy and to be able to fly

    at the same time. Very Happy
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    Post  Cyberspec Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:37 am

    Yeah I know, but I'm talking about the radiation symbol in the back of T-50-4 and what that might be.
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    Post  Viktor Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:00 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Yeah I know, but I'm talking about the radiation symbol in the back of T-50-4 and what that might be.

    Sorry, I never sow the word "rear". Very Happy

    I guess it does not hurt to say once more how innovative Russian approach is.
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:32 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Yeah I know, but I'm talking about the radiation symbol in the back of T-50-4 and what that might be.

    The radiation symbol refers to the radiation power in each of the antenna channels at the rear of the aircraft.

    In all likelihood this rear radar will also help the PAK FA fire the rear -firing RW-MD .

    Cyberspec wrote:Another interesting theory is that it might be a Russian "MADL" that is planned for the F-35

    MADL , unlikely as Sukhoi will probably go for the Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS). I suspect that will happen towards the fag end of the stipulated number of flight tests when the PAK FA will have to communicate with Su 35S , SU 30 and MIG 31 . But yes it would be interesting to see where MIDS is placed not just in the PAK FA but also in the other aircrafts .
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    Post  Viktor Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:01 pm

    Nice, so for sure we will live to see one and two seat version of PAK-FA

    1. Two seat version
    2. All is going well and smoothly
    3. Series production after 2015
    4. Russian and India version will differ in 40-50 things
    5. India will use 360° AESA WoW


    8.2.13 ON THE BASIS OF SINGLE PAK FA WILL CREATE A SINGLE VERSION OF THE


    February 8 2013.

    ARMS-TASS . On the basis of single perspective frontline aviation complex (PAK FA), also known as the fighter of the 5th generation, will be designed by the double version, told the president of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), Mikhail Pogosyan, the air show "Aero India 2013" at Bangalore.

    "Details - after will be signed procurement contracts. Inform Then, how many single-seater, and how many double," - he said.

    Pogosyan said that today those planes of the 5th generation, "who pass the test are single, but certainly, there will be two-seaters."

    He added that the tests connected the fourth prototype fighter 5 th generation - T-50-4. "All going well and smoothly," - said the head of the KLA.

    State tests of the first five fighters of the 5th generation will begin on the basis of the test center in Akhtubinsk Air Force in March.

    The first flight of the PAK FA took place January 29, 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur: up in the air then the first prototype aircraft, designated T-50-1. In comparison with the previous generation fighters PAK FA has several unique features, combining the functions of attack aircraft and fighter. Thus, it is equipped with promising radar with a phased antenna array and a fundamentally new avionics. The composition of the latter, in particular, integrated "electronic pilot", which greatly reduces the workload of the pilot.

    Fighter of the 5th generation has an unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared signature, which significantly increases the combat effectiveness of the aircraft at work both on air and ground targets.

    Series production of the PAK FA to begin after 2015. Russian Air Force plans to get 60 of these aircraft.

    Based on the PAK FA project is developing a joint Russian-Idian future aircraft - FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft). It will be different from the base of the Russian fighter of the 5th generation. According to the data of the Indian side, the project FGFA air forces of India identified the 40-45 positions, which need to finalize the Russian PAK FA. In particular, India needs to develop a new airborne radar with active electronically scanned array (AESA radar with) full vision of 360 degrees.

    According to open sources, India is planning to put into service 214 fighter FGFA by 2030. Cost of production declared batch - 30 billion U.S. dollars.
    http://www.itar-tass.com/

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    Post  Sujoy Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:29 pm

    Viktor wrote:Nice, so for sure we will live to see one and two seat version of PAK-FA

    Amen to that Very Happy , but did you notice Viktor that the scaled down model of the PAKFA ( Indian version) shows a one seater aircraft .
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    Post  Viktor Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:10 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Nice, so for sure we will live to see one and two seat version of PAK-FA

    Amen to that Very Happy , but did you notice Viktor that the scaled down model of the PAKFA ( Indian version) shows a one seater aircraft .

    If US was in place of Russia in regard to PAK-FA I bet we would have seen by now all sort of eye candy media presentation on a scale

    not possible to imagine but ending with F-35 specs Twisted Evil . With Russia you get 1/5model of the plane not interested by anyone

    but ending with F-22 like and better specs Very Happy Very Happy .

    I think its only because India will buy just one seat version of the PAK-FA in the start and later as the two seat version of PAK-FA

    gets done we will see it as a model just like this one now.

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