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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:05 pm

    Viktor wrote:I think its only because India will buy just one seat version of the PAK-FA in the start and later as the two seat version of PAK-FA

    gets done we will see it as a model just like this one now.

    Actually I am pretty disappointed with the model ( am referring to the one currently shown in Aero India , picture above) that HAL has put up . It's clearly missing some basic stealth features .

    From what I hear the Indian Air Force will purchase the one seater PAKFA , while the Indian Navy will purchase the two seater PAKFA .
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    Corrosion


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    Post  Corrosion Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:38 am

    Sujoy wrote:It's clearly missing some basic stealth features
    Like What??
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:59 am

    Black paint...

    BTW I suspect the Russian PAK FA will have 360 degree AESA coverage too, they have been talking about integrating AESA antennas into the aircrafts skin.
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    Post  Sujoy Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:04 am

    Corrosion wrote:Like What??

    (1) The FGFA’s scale-model at HAL’s pavilion does NOT even show the rear-mounted IRST sensor that is now already flying on the PAK-FA . [The same goes for the AMCA’s model].

    (2) The engines are not shielded with internal blockers .

    (3) Round Nozzles . Isn't the FGFA supposed to be an aircraft that's supposed to take out enemy SAM sites ? And HAL expects to do that using round nozzles ? The T 50 is being designed as a "Hunter Killer" which would detect other stealth or non stealth aircrafts at stand off distances & defeat them in a WVR combat so flat 2D TVC nozzles is not a requirement but is imperative for an air dominance aircraft like the FGFA.

    (4) Canards and non edge alignment indicate lack of attention to detail as the leading edge does NOT slats on all the way to the tip of the wing .

    Having said all this HAL on it's part might suggest that this is just a scale down model so RCS etc etc doe NOT matter.



    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:57 pm

    It is a model guys, you are looking way too into it.

    F-23 also did not have slats all the way down to wingtips, guess what, its RCS passed requirements!

    Seriously, we are talking about Sukhoi and HAL, two organizations far better versed in details fanboys like ourselves can spot; just have some patience and wait for the final product Smile .
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    Post  Werewolf Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:23 pm



    SMOTR Docu.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:43 am

    F-23 also did not have slats all the way down to wingtips, guess what, its RCS passed requirements!

    And the YF-23 had a lower RCS than the YF-22, but was rejected because it was less manouverable.

    X2 regarding ...it is just a model... how many secrets do you expect them to give away before it has even flown?
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:29 am

    TR1 wrote:Seriously, we are talking about Sukhoi and HAL, two organizations far better versed in details fanboys like ourselves can spot; just have some patience and wait for the final product Smile .

    Actually , it's only HAL that has pulled off this masterpiece Smile

    In other news pertaining to PAKFA/FGFA coming out of Aero India 2013 :

    Preliminary design phase of the FGFA will be completed by March 2013 , and then the product development phase will commence. During this product development phase, three airworthy FGFAs will be shipped from Russia to HAL between 2015 and 2018 to enable DRDO and HAL to commence mission avionics/sensors installation and their integration. After this phase is over , the three FGFAs will be flight-tested by the IAF to determine the aircraft’s performance parameters and its optimum weapons load. If all this works out as planned, series-production of the FGFA/PMF will commence in India by 2022.
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    Post  Aegean Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:30 pm


    Correct me if I am wrong, but so far the T-50 has not been seen flying with Radar enchancers attached to it.

    When the F-22 was flight-tested there were reflectors on board to make it visible to ground stations.

    The T-50 has been flying extensively and surely tracked by ground radars. It is standard procedure to monitor test planes in flight.

    No ?

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    Post  Mindstorm Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:21 pm


    When the F-22 was flight-tested there were reflectors on board to make it visible to ground stations.


    .............Smile Smile ........................ Very Happy Very Happy ..................... Laughing Laughing
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    Post  Werewolf Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:55 pm

    Such comments are always amusing. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Post  Aegean Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:28 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Such comments are always amusing. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


    really ?? ?

    let me amuse a bit more by showing you the said device on the F-22! It is called 'luneburg lens'

    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 F-22_luneberg_500-375



    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 Raptor_enhancer

    Still amusing ?
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    Post  Djoka Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:30 pm

    Oh man give it a break on that superstealth crap will you.No plane on the planet is totaly invisible to radar,yes that includes f-22.So us airforce should drop that bullshit propaganda and instead focus on making f-22 NOT to kill its own pilots.
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    Post  TR1 Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:51 pm

    Aegean wrote:
    Correct me if I am wrong, but so far the T-50 has not been seen flying with Radar enchancers attached to it.

    When the F-22 was flight-tested there were reflectors on board to make it visible to ground stations.

    The T-50 has been flying extensively and surely tracked by ground radars. It is standard procedure to monitor test planes in flight.

    No ?


    Why would T-50 have flight reflectors when skin does not even have RAM treatment yet?

    Take a look how "stealthy" the F-35 or F-22 looked this few years into the program.
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    Post  Mindstorm Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:31 pm


    really ?? ?

    let me amuse a bit more by showing you the said device on the F-22! It is called 'luneburg lens'


    Aegean are you serious ?

    Do you truly pretend that someone here has any need to be explained what is a Luneberg Lens ?


    You have said that F-22 (or for better say YF-22A) was flight tested with radar reflectors "to make it visible to ground stations" , letting from that infering that Edwards AFB's radars would have been incapable to maintain track of it without.
    That is very amusing Very Happy .


    You could start examining instead when that Lens is really employed and the precise reason for its peculiar and selective placement Wink .

    Just to aid you at eliminate from the possibilities the one ,very likely, present in your mind about that Luneberg lens real employment's rational you should observe what F-22 used in reality scrambling missions of true potential "enemy" aircraft Wink

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    Post  Aegean Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:51 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    really ?? ?

    let me amuse a bit more by showing you the said device on the F-22! It is called 'luneburg lens'


    Aegean are you serious ?

    Do you truly pretend that someone here has any need to be explained what is a Luneberg Lens ?


    You have said that F-22 (or for better say YF-22A) was flight tested with radar reflectors "to make it visible to ground stations" , letting from that infering that Edwards AFB's radars would have been incapable to maintain track of it without.
    That is very amusing Very Happy .


    You could start examining instead when that Lens is really employed and the precise reason for its peculiar and selective placement Wink .

    Just to aid you at eliminate from the possibilities the one ,very likely, present in your mind about that Luneberg lens real employment's rational you should observe what F-22 used in reality scrambling missions of true potential "enemy" aircraft Wink


    I am sorry you lost me in that last bit, can you try again?

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    Post  Mindstorm Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:52 pm


    I am sorry you lost me in that last bit, can you try again?


    Ok i will try to be more explicit : that lens obviously is NOT placed here to "mask" the entire airframe diffraction field in an high frequency scattering regime Very Happy .

    Instead just some dozen of centimeters onward is placed a critical structural element of F-22 generating......a very distinctive RCS peak variation when actioned (and not Very Happy you cannot avoid to use it if you want to engage in combat anything with that aircraft).


    Clear now ?
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    Post  Austin Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:51 am

    Mindstorm , Can you tell us some of the few qualities that the new 2nd Stage engine will bring for PAK-FA ?

    Beyond More Thrust and Longer Engine Life are they targetting something like Variable Cycle Engine ?
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    Post  Mindstorm Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:44 am


    Mindstorm , Can you tell us some of the few qualities that the new 2nd Stage engine will bring for PAK-FA ?

    Beyond More Thrust and Longer Engine Life are they targetting something like Variable Cycle Engine ?



    I don't know.
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    Post  Austin Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:16 am

    Mindstorm wrote:I don't know.

    Not the answer we usually hear from Mindstorm Smile
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    Post  Aegean Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:06 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    I am sorry you lost me in that last bit, can you try again?


    Ok i will try to be more explicit : that lens obviously is NOT placed here to "mask" the entire airframe diffraction field in an high frequency scattering regime Very Happy .

    Instead just some dozen of centimeters onward is placed a critical structural element of F-22 generating......a very distinctive RCS peak variation when actioned (and not Very Happy you cannot avoid to use it if you want to engage in combat anything with that aircraft).


    Clear now ?

    I am sorry I very much doubt this claim you are making. I find it lacks any substantial basis. You can elaborate of course but really I see no merit here.

    Especially since all stealth planes F-22, F-117 and B-2 have these devices for two main reasons. 1 is to allow air traffic control to see them and second to not allow anyone else to have a real RCS figure for them.

    this is not an unknown fact and has been cited in various magazines and books about the said planes. Now you are telling me that this is to mask the weapons bay of the F-22?

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    Post  Werewolf Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:32 pm

    Stealth planes are like "invisible" bra straps, get close enough and you can see them.
    The only invisible thing i can confirm are the IQ's of stubborn people, not direct addressed to you.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:31 pm

    Not the answer we usually hear from Mindstorm

    I would say the opposite... it is what we expect from Mindstorm... the truth as he sees it.

    A lesser man might be tempted to put forward speculation as facts... Smile

    I would expect a new 5th gen engine to have the general characteristics of a 5th gen engine... ie lighter, fewer parts, lower fuel consumption, higher thrust that allows supersonic flight without AB, etc.

    this is not an unknown fact and has been cited in various magazines and books about the said planes. Now you are telling me that this is to mask the weapons bay of the F-22?

    The stealth of the F-22 and other stealth aircraft is aimed specifically at a particular range of radars commonly used for detecting, tracking, and engaging air targets. Fitting a corner reflector for existing radars to be able to track the aircraft easily just saves them the problems of modifying existing radars and air control systems to deal with such aircraft.

    Obviously as such stealth aircraft are intended to operate against Russia they don't have the luxury of expecting all US stealth aircraft to operate in and near their airspace with such corner reflectors fitted, so they are upgrading and changing their radars to minimise the effects of the shaping and materials used on US stealth aircraft to make them harder to detect, track, and engage.

    These factors plus the fact that the PAK FA is a prototype aircraft that hasn't likely even had RAM fitted yet suggests they will have no problems tracking their stealth aircraft without need to use corner reflectors.

    BTW the Soviets have used corner reflectors for years on their obsolete SAMs they use as targets for their air defence forces to simulate different air threats.

    Your criticism reminds me of a comment on the Key Publishing forum that because the Russians didn't have any open air radar ranges to test stealth aircraft models in that they weren't actually working on stealth aircraft at all... it seems if the Russians don't do something the exact same way the US does it then they are not doing it right. The reality is that Russia has different requirements from the west and often the way the west does things don't suit those different requirements... just look at their aircraft carriers, or indeed their space shuttle and space stations.
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    Post  Mindstorm Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:56 pm

    I find it lacks any substantial basis. You can elaborate of course but really I see no merit here.


    Oh...i am sure that you don't see any merit ,but i am equally sure that you will perfectly see ,instead, any empirical evidency Very Happy


    1) F-22's airframe is not constructed with polyetherimide composites Laughing Laughing
    It is NOT radar transparent in any scattering regime !


    2) That lens (leaving even a part the problem of its inherently limited RCS magnification's magnitudo capability....) cannot in any way mask F-22's airbody diffraction field for almost ALL most important re-radiating cones for unavoidable geometrical questions.

    The element in question, in facts, is placed in the third rear segment of lower body fuselage ( just after weapon bay ) where the frame, already "covered" by the the bow section for effect of the asymptotic curvature starting at the duct opening, join with aft section.

    The obvious empirical result of what just said is that the lens in question would be TOTALLY outside ANY reradiating point not only of the fundamental over-median line frontal projection (critical in BVR air to air engagements)










    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 F22_raptor_usairforce



    but even perfectly same-plane frontal aspect !!




    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 F-22a_raptor_42_of_81






    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 China-J-20-stealth-fighter-aircraft-01



    3) F-22s also in peacetime over NORAD patrol missions carry similar lower fuselage recessed Luneberg Lenses, but avoid ,obviously, to mount anywhere possible fuel tanks to retain its reduced RCS













    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 Qslcard-1



    4) When engaged in real peacetime interception missions of real "enemy" aircraft over the same NORAD areas F-22s have always mounted external fuel tanks



    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 F22_tu95bear-copy


    The effect on RCS of which in the critical frontal projection are self-evident



    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 20091219201541



    5) Instead to rely on the comical, demented theories circulating on hopeless places such as F-16 . net and similar (where AIM-120B has an engagement range of 105 km Laughing ,AIM-120D 200 km Laughing, missiles with 30G pull charge limits render irrelevant aircraft capable to produce 9G maneuvers Laughing , F-22 has a relevant RCS of 0,0001 square meters Laughing , USAF F-15s had won engagement against SUI-30MKI at Red Flag 2008 Laughing etc..etc...) if you are seriously interested in the subject in question you could start with a book like "Computer simulation of aerial target radar scattering recognition, detection, and tracking" by Prof. Gorshkov, S., Leshenko, S., Ollenko, V., Sedyshev, S. , Sukharevskiy, O., it is also present a fair model of the B-2's RCS with RAM at different radar frequencies Wink ; i am sure that ,after , you will finds some positions and "theories" on similar subjects simply nauseating.


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    Post  Aegean Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:07 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    I find it lacks any substantial basis. You can elaborate of course but really I see no merit here.


    Oh...i am sure that you don't see any merit ,but i am equally sure that you will perfectly see ,instead, any empirical evidency Very Happy


    1) F-22's airframe is not constructed with polyetherimide composites Laughing Laughing
    It is NOT radar transparent in any scattering regime !


    2) That lens (leaving even a part the problem of its inherently limited RCS magnification's magnitudo capability....) cannot in any way mask F-22's airbody diffraction field for almost ALL most important re-radiating cones for unavoidable geometrical questions.

    The element in question, in facts, is placed in the third rear segment of lower body fuselage ( just after weapon bay ) where the frame, already "covered" by the the bow section for effect of the asymptotic curvature starting at the duct opening, join with aft section.

    The obvious empirical result of what just said is that the lens in question would be TOTALLY outside ANY reradiating point not only of the fundamental over-median line frontal projection (critical in BVR air to air engagements)










    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 F22_raptor_usairforce



    but even perfectly same-plane frontal aspect !!




    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 F-22a_raptor_42_of_81






    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 China-J-20-stealth-fighter-aircraft-01



    3) F-22s also in peacetime over NORAD patrol missions carry similar lower fuselage recessed Luneberg Lenses, but avoid ,obviously, to mount anywhere possible fuel tanks to retain its reduced RCS













    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 Qslcard-1



    4) When engaged in real peacetime interception missions of real "enemy" aircraft over the same NORAD areas F-22s have always mounted external fuel tanks



    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 F22_tu95bear-copy


    The effect on RCS of which in the critical frontal projection are self-evident



    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 30 20091219201541



    5) Instead to rely on the comical, demented theories circulating on hopeless places such as F-16 . net and similar (where AIM-120B has an engagement range of 105 km Laughing ,AIM-120D 200 km Laughing, missiles with 30G pull charge limits render irrelevant aircraft capable to produce 9G maneuvers Laughing , F-22 has a relevant RCS of 0,0001 square meters Laughing , USAF F-15s had won engagement against SUI-30MKI at Red Flag 2008 Laughing etc..etc...) if you are seriously interested in the subject in question you could start with a book like "Computer simulation of aerial target radar scattering recognition, detection, and tracking" by Prof. Gorshkov, S., Leshenko, S., Ollenko, V., Sedyshev, S. , Sukharevskiy, O., it is also present a fair model of the B-2's RCS with RAM at different radar frequencies Wink ; i am sure that ,after , you will finds some positions and "theories" on similar subjects simply nauseating.



    First of all I have to apologise, but your written English prevent me from fully understanding what you are trying to say. I have a hard time following your thoughts.

    Hence if I make a mistake please correct me.

    You seem to be under the impression that the lens is there to 'mask' .. the aircraft in some way.

    I never said that. I said it is an enhancer. It raises the planes RCS above a certain threshold.

    I don't know how radar transparent the F-22 materials are, but what you are suggesting there is also lacking serious basis because even if you use full on fiberglass (radio transparent, gliders are hardly picked up by ATC radars) for a jet figther, radar would still bounce of the actual alloys on the stress bearing bulckheads and the engines and wheel struts through the fiberglass.

    but moving beyond that, I still fail to see your point.

    is the lens a masking device so I am wrong?

    is the lens NOT an enhancer and I am again wrong?

    Would the tank carrying (but not lens carrying) F-22s Not lose the disadvantage in combat if they dropped their tanks in an escalation of an intercept?

    Is it not a fact that all the US VLO planes carry said radar enhancer? (some retractable some not) ?

    And again you seem to believe that the lens is outside any reradiating point. It is not. And on this point BVR engagements have nothing to do with it, why was that brought up in the first place?




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