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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1

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    Firebird


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    Post  Firebird Mon May 06, 2013 11:44 pm

    TR1 wrote:Garry: info has come out that Sukhoi specifically requested maximum speed be limited to Mach 2.
    So no cruising above that speed.

    "
    I know Russia has corruption problems, but I dont think it has cash black holes in the way the USA does."

    Yeah, it has far far worse ones. Terrible corruption to this day, and not just in politics.

    I was thinking in military development TR1.
    I know the whole Yeltsin era was a total disaster in terms of corruption. And Putin is limited in what he can do against Oligarch Power. I know Russia still has corruption problems as does America. But Russia's military procurement, I think, looks much better value than America's.
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    Post  TR1 Mon May 06, 2013 11:57 pm

    The amount of corruption in the military is ENORMOUS.
    I have zero doubt whatsoever it is far worse than anything the US has going on. Overpriced subcontractors is one thing, straight up fraud and money theft like in Russia is a whole separate.
    And don't doubt for a second, Putin is a corrupt bastard himself.
    As are, frankly most Russian politicians.
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    Post  Sujoy Tue May 07, 2013 6:23 am

    Firebird wrote:I watched the whole vid. Shows, as we know, how sinister corporate America can be when selling something thats either good or garbage.

    What's important here is that this is for the first time that they are accepting it .

    Firebird wrote:I wonder how the F-22 stands up to close examination.

    "Problem" is it's middle name . See this link

    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/115543547/F22-analysis


    Firebird wrote:The next thing I wonder is, how good will the Pak-fa be. Its looking like an extreme bargain compared to the F-35 so far...

    It's shaping up exactly as per requirement . A Hunter Killer , which is going to identify stealth / non stealth air crafts at stand off range and then neutralize them in a WVR conflict .

    http://defense-update.com/20120502_beyond-visual-range-stealth-fighters-in-asia.html
    Now, let us take a close look at the Russian PAK FA program. The PAK FA already comes with a forward looking large nose mounted I-band Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radar, smaller, side looking I-band AESA radars, and wing mounted C/D-band AESA radars. In addition, it uses multi-spectral IRST both in the front and back. Going by the prototype it seems that extreme manoeuvrability has been given precedence over all aspects of stealth, so the PAK FA may not carry out the deep penetration role of the F-22. It is understood that the PAK FA has been designed from the onset to detect the F-22 or similar stealth aircrafts from a long distance using its IRST and then destroy these aircrafts in a Within Visual Range conflict.Obviously, designing the avionic suite of the PAK FA (also the Sukhoi/HAL FGFA for India) is not going to be easy for Sukhoi. The provision of high capacity avionic cooling is essential, to avoid producing infrared hotspots. Likewise, the need for wideband, yet very low RCS radio-frequency apertures for the use of both passive and active sensors and aircraft datalink/network terminal transceivers. Unlike the Lockheed Martin F-22, which uses conventional stealth technology for signature reduction, Sukhoi favored another innovative approach – 85 percent of the surface of PAK FA is covered with unique coating made of nano-particle materials that decrease the visibility of the plane. (In addition, this coating is also said to offer extra benefit in drag reduction).



    Firebird wrote:It would be very interesting if it did emerge that Su-35 beats the F-35.

    The F 35 only has good stealth features at the front . Stealth shaping of the rear and wings are mediocre . Because of it's design it lacks extreme maneuverability as well .

    So a Russian or Chinese SU 35 pilot can very easily defeat a NATO F 35 in both BVR as well as WVR conflict .
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    Post  Zivo Tue May 07, 2013 10:59 am

    So a Russian or Chinese SU 35 pilot can very easily defeat a NATO F 35 in both BVR as well as WVR conflict.

    It wouldn't say it would be "very easy", but if the Su-35's were working closely with ground radar the F-35's probably wouldn't last long.
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    Post  Sujoy Tue May 07, 2013 11:37 am

    Zivo wrote:
    So a Russian or Chinese SU 35 pilot can very easily defeat a NATO F 35 in both BVR as well as WVR conflict.

    It wouldn't say it would be "very easy", but if the Su-35's were working closely with ground radar the F-35's probably wouldn't last long.

    After a simulation exercise carried out by the US air force the F 35 ( to quote an Australian Air Force official) "had been clubbed like baby seals by the Sukhois " . Link below :

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/09/us-stealth-figh/
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 07, 2013 11:57 am

    We all know the F-35 has faults. OK some/many will be sorted, perhaps not.
    I wonder how the F-22 stands up to close examination.

    F-22s main problem is that it was designed to fight enormous hordes of unstealthy aircraft during a third world war than didn't come at the right time.

    The result is that the F-22 is a super sniper, but if you are immune to its bullets (AMRAAM and AIM-9X) then it is in trouble if you are in a smaller more nimble fighter with a modern short range missile or gun.

    The F-22 works best from a distance.

    Anyone wonder whether the Mig1.44 (VTOL) tech that was sold to the US was a "poison pill" ie sent America down a wrong path...

    ??? the Mig-1.44 is the stealthy version of the Mig-1.42 built for the MFI program... pretty sure it is not VTOL.


    It would be very interesting if it did emerge that Su-35 beats the F-35.

    How will we tell? If you read western histories of WWII the Soviet retreat to Moscow in 1941 was a rout, while the British "escape" at Dunkirk was a victory... Cool

    Garry: info has come out that Sukhoi specifically requested maximum speed be limited to Mach 2.
    So no cruising above that speed.

    The same reason for the limitation of the speed of the F-16 and F-18... lower speed requirements means lower costs and allows certain parts to be greatly simplified... including the air intakes.


    After a simulation exercise carried out by the US air force the F 35 ( to quote an Australian Air Force official) "had been clubbed like baby seals by the Sukhois " . Link below :

    Such simulations make a lot of assumptions... not all of them would apply all of the time. Keep in mind that not using even very good equipment effectively is the leading cause of death in arab israeli wars...
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    Post  Firebird Tue May 07, 2013 1:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    We all know the F-35 has faults. OK some/many will be sorted, perhaps not.
    I wonder how the F-22 stands up to close examination.

    F-22s main problem is that it was designed to fight enormous hordes of unstealthy aircraft during a third world war than didn't come at the right time.

    The result is that the F-22 is a super sniper, but if you are immune to its bullets (AMRAAM and AIM-9X) then it is in trouble if you are in a smaller more nimble fighter with a modern short range missile or gun.

    The F-22 works best from a distance.

    Anyone wonder whether the Mig1.44 (VTOL) tech that was sold to the US was a "poison pill" ie sent America down a wrong path...

    ??? the Mig-1.44 is the stealthy version of the Mig-1.42 built for the MFI program... pretty sure it is not VTOL.


    It would be very interesting if it did emerge that Su-35 beats the F-35.

    How will we tell? If you read western histories of WWII the Soviet retreat to Moscow in 1941 was a rout, while the British "escape" at Dunkirk was a victory... Cool

    Garry: info has come out that Sukhoi specifically requested maximum speed be limited to Mach 2.
    So no cruising above that speed.

    The same reason for the limitation of the speed of the F-16 and F-18... lower speed requirements means lower costs and allows certain parts to be greatly simplified... including the air intakes.


    After a simulation exercise carried out by the US air force the F 35 ( to quote an Australian Air Force official) "had been clubbed like baby seals by the Sukhois " . Link below :

    Such simulations make a lot of assumptions... not all of them would apply all of the time. Keep in mind that not using even very good equipment effectively is the leading cause of death in arab israeli wars...

    Sorry I think I was confusing 2 things. There was a rumour that Mig stealth had been sold off. And I think there was a separate rumour that Yak VTOL/ STOL tech had been sold off. The F-35 for their marines looks to have similarities with the Yak STOL that was abandoned.

    It sort of looks like the Americans had an idea, but didnt know how to implement it. So this does tend to suggest a little failed back engineering/ something similar...
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 07, 2013 1:52 pm

    The VSTOL main engine bits are licence produced Sukhoi technology... the west didn't have a vectored thrust system that could operate in full AB, so they bought the technology cheap from Sukhoi.

    The requirement to have a single aircraft replace all the non stealthy NATO aircraft including the F-16, AV-8, Tornado, etc etc resulted in a jack of all trades master of none type scenario.

    The requirement to have large lift fans powered by the main engine resulted in a lot of wasted space internally and mandated certain features that are required for a VSTOL but not much use on other aircraft types. The F-35 was handicapped from the start by the need to share an airframe structure with a VSTOL.

    Imagine how the F-16 would have turned out if it had to have the same shape as the Harrier.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Tue May 07, 2013 4:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:The VSTOL main engine bits are license produced Sukhoi technology... the west didn't have a vectored thrust system that could operate in full AB, so they bought the technology cheap from Sukhoi.
    Wowowowo....GarryB are you telling me that the US/LM had bought the VSTOL vectored thrust systems from Sukhoi under license or are you implying that they replicated it?? Shocked
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    Post  Firebird Tue May 07, 2013 5:24 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The VSTOL main engine bits are license produced Sukhoi technology... the west didn't have a vectored thrust system that could operate in full AB, so they bought the technology cheap from Sukhoi.
    Wowowowo....GarryB are you telling me that the US/LM had bought the VSTOL vectored thrust systems from Sukhoi under license or are you implying that they replicated it?? Shocked

    I thought sthg MIGHT have been bought from Yak..?
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 07, 2013 7:57 pm

    They got consultation from Yak, but the F-35s system in terms of actual hardware is all new.
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    Post  Sujoy Tue May 07, 2013 8:24 pm

    Fifth-generation jet tests may start in July - Air Force -Air Force Commander Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev

    Tests of Russia’s fifth-generation T-50 fighter jets in the Chkalov state flight test center in Akhtubinsk, Astrakhan Region in south Russia may start in July, Air Force Commander Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev said.
    “In two months,” he said Monday when asked when the center would start tests of such jets, adding that the first serial fifth-generation jet may be manufactured in 2014-2015.

    United Aircraft Corporation President Mikhail Pogosyan said in April Russia will start state flight tests of the T-50 in 2014.

    The fighter jets will enter service with the country’s armed forces in 2016, and not 2015 as was previously announced, President Vladimir Putin said at a live Q&A session with the Russian public in April.
    The Defense Ministry had earlier said the jet would be ready in 2015.

    The T-50, also known as PAK-FA (future tactical fighter aircraft), first flew in January 2010 and was presented to the public at the Moscow Air Show in 2011.

    The T-50, which will be the core of Russia's future fighter fleet, is a fifth-generation multirole fighter aircraft featuring elements of stealth technology, super-maneuverability, super-cruise capability (supersonic flight without use of afterburner), and an advanced avionics suite including an X-band active phased-array radar.

    Bondarev also said some 60-70 military airfields will be built or reconstructed for Russia’s Air Force by 2020.

    Source : RIA Novosti
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 08, 2013 1:19 am

    They got consultation from Yak, but the F-35s system in terms of actual hardware is all new.

    You make it sound like they had a little chat and that was it.

    I will say it again, Yak had a TVC engine nozzle for the huge R179 engine in the supersonic Yak-141 that could withstand the engine running at full throttle in full AB while vectored, so it could in theory be used at full AB power in a takeoff or landing providing the surface was fully heat resistant... like the special decks of carriers.

    The US didn't have that technology and bought it/licenced it from Yakovlev. They didn't buy an engine, just the thrust vectoring system design suitable for a single very large and powerful afterburning turbofan.


    Last edited by GarryB on Wed May 08, 2013 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Wed May 08, 2013 1:44 am

    1.) What does Sukhoi have to do with it? I've only heard about a deal with Yak.
    2.) I have not heard anything about licensing either. That is a much bigger step than consultation and technological assistance, which is substantial in its own.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Wed May 08, 2013 2:16 am

    TR1 wrote:1.) What does Sukhoi have to do with it? I've only heard about a deal with Yak.
    2.) I have not heard anything about licensing either. That is a much bigger step than consultation and technological assistance, which is substantial in its own.
    No kidding this is news to me, GarryB can you post some sources of this deal. Shocked
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 08, 2013 2:54 am

    Typo corrected.

    Plus... not the best direct source (wiki), but

    n June 1994, Lockheed, which had merged with Martin Marietta to form Lockheed Martin, revealed that it had entered into a collaborative relationship with Yakovlev on their bid for the Joint Advanced Strike Technology competition, consisting of the purchase of design data from the Russian company; according to Jane's All the World's Aircraft 2000-2001 this was data from the cancelled Yak-141 program which employed a similar propulsion system.[5][6][7][8]

    The original source is Janes... wouldn't trust them for information about Soviet or Russian planes but this is about an American plane.

    LM bought "DESIGN data" regarding the Yak-141... it wasn't the engine because they already had the engines... it is generally accepted they bought the design of the vector thrust nozzle of the engine that can resist afterburning while directing the engine thrust 90 degrees.

    They already had the engine thrust vector nozzles of the Harrier and AV-8 to examine but it doesn't have an afterburner, so the pressure and heat on the joints and seals is not as extreme.
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    Post  Department Of Defense Fri May 10, 2013 6:24 pm

    Sujoy wrote:The T-50, which will be the core of Russia's future fighter fleet, is a fifth-generation multirole fighter aircraft featuring elements of stealth technology, super-maneuverability, super-cruise capability (supersonic flight without use of afterburner), and an advanced avionics suite including an X-band active phased-array radar.

    Fail . The T 50 can be detected by radio telescopes .Radio telescopes can detect signal from stars thousands of light year distance, The basic of these systems is that objects which have certain temperature radiates electromagnetic energy based on Planck"s radiation law.

    It is therefore feasible to use these radio telescope like systems to detect stealth targets at great ranges.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri May 10, 2013 8:38 pm

    So you're going to start scanning the skies with Radio telescopes now?
    Cool story bro
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    Post  Department Of Defense Fri May 10, 2013 9:14 pm

    flamming_python wrote:So you're going to start scanning the skies with Radio telescopes now?
    Cool story bro

    What's wrong with that . Radar has failed .
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    Post  ali.a.r Sat May 11, 2013 7:02 am


    What's wrong with that . Radar has failed .
    Hardly. L-Band and S-Band radars can still detect stealth aircraft. For the money it would take to develop a radio telescope for military applications, you could develop a powerful, long-range L-band radar. (I think the biggest obstacle with L-Band and S-Band is that they are relatively short-range, as compared to X-Band)


    Last edited by ali.a.r on Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Mixed up X and S - oh, the shame)
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    Post  havok Sat May 11, 2013 9:27 am

    Department Of Defense wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:The T-50, which will be the core of Russia's future fighter fleet, is a fifth-generation multirole fighter aircraft featuring elements of stealth technology, super-maneuverability, super-cruise capability (supersonic flight without use of afterburner), and an advanced avionics suite including an X-band active phased-array radar.

    Fail . The T 50 can be detected by radio telescopes .Radio telescopes can detect signal from stars thousands of light year distance, The basic of these systems is that objects which have certain temperature radiates electromagnetic energy based on Planck"s radiation law.

    It is therefore feasible to use these radio telescope like systems to detect stealth targets at great ranges.
    Please be sensible instead of feasible.

    Radio telescopes are large directional parabolic dish antennas. They are ground level and therefore greatly limited by the horizon.

    http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm

    If any country relies on radio telescopes as air defense, no need for 'stealth'. Just a Cessna 172 (Mathias Rust) will do.
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    Post  Zivo Sat May 11, 2013 11:13 am

    Rust was tracked on multiple occasions and interceptors were sent out. No shootdown order was given for obvious reasons.


    Even a 172 would have trouble. But I get your point Razz

    What's wrong with that. Radar has failed.

    Laughable statement.
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 11, 2013 12:27 pm

    Fail . The T 50 can be detected by radio telescopes .Radio telescopes can detect signal from stars thousands of light year distance, The basic of these systems is that objects which have certain temperature radiates electromagnetic energy based on Planck"s radiation law.

    It is therefore feasible to use these radio telescope like systems to detect stealth targets at great ranges.

    Sorry my friend... some objects in space emit radio waves... these are enormous balls of fusing atoms creating enormous amounts of energy that is broadcast in the entire spectrum of energy, from X rays and gamma rays through visible light and UV and IR and pretty much anything in between. Most stealth aircraft to not naturally emit radio waves, and are not 3 million degrees + at their core fusing hydrogen atoms into helium atoms.

    Radio telescopes are also very very large and tend to be used in large groups these days... not exactly much use scanning the entire sky in periods that are useful (ie seconds or miliseconds).

    Hardly. L-Band and X-Band radars can still detect stealth aircraft. For the money it would take to develop a radio telescope for military applications, you could develop a powerful, long-range L-band radar. (I think the biggest obstacle with L-Band and X-Band is that they are relatively short-range, as compared to S-Band)

    Short frequencies are targetted by stealth, so UHF and VHF are interesting areas to move into... perhaps mounted on the sides of large airships, or perhaps inside them to monitor large areas of airspace...
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    Post  BlackArrow Wed May 22, 2013 8:46 pm

    Zivo wrote:Rust was tracked on multiple occasions and interceptors were sent out. No shootdown order was given for obvious reasons.

    What were the obvious reasons? Soviet air defences failed to prevent a foreign aircraft penetrating the most sensitive and protected zone in the whole of the USSR, Rust landed right beside the Kremlin in Red Square - that was not supposed to happen. Certainly a massive failure on the PVO's part. How were they going to learn to deal with a B-2?
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    Post  TR1 Wed May 22, 2013 9:30 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    Zivo wrote:Rust was tracked on multiple occasions and interceptors were sent out. No shootdown order was given for obvious reasons.

    What were the obvious reasons? Soviet air defences failed to prevent a foreign aircraft penetrating the most sensitive and protected zone in the whole of the USSR, Rust landed right beside the Kremlin in Red Square - that was not supposed to happen. Certainly a massive failure on the PVO's part. How were they going to learn to deal with a B-2?

    Ugh, if I had to have a penny everytime I corrected this..

    Nobody failed anything. Rust was tracked for his entire voyage, and MiG-23s buzzed him repeatedly. I am aquaintances with a PVO Lt.General from the time, and he was quite frank about the whole thing.
    After Korean shootdown, USSR did not want bad press. That's it.
    OFc in the west it was turned into "Rust took down the USSR!"

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