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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:11 am

    Some pics of a partly constructed hull, unclear if its recent pics of the 3rd or older pics of one of the first 2.
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 14 15-6768449-imag1010
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 14 15-6768453-imag1008
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 14 15-6768461-imag1007
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:07 pm

    http://tass.com/defense/1032462 wrote:Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs

    Goodbye Kalina, goodbye AIP.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:13 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    http://tass.com/defense/1032462 wrote:Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs

    Goodbye Kalina, goodbye AIP.

    AIP is initially for Lada class. Actually, first one had a testing unit I believe. Future were supposed to get it as well. So don't just knock it yet.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:34 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    http://tass.com/defense/1032462 wrote:Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs

    Goodbye Kalina, goodbye AIP.

    AIP is initially for Lada class.  Actually, first one had a testing unit I believe.  Future were supposed to get it as well.  So don't just knock it yet.

    What??

    No, i am pretty sure there was no testing unit when the first sub came out, the AIP was still under development back then.

    As for these new Lada subs, they don't mention whether they'll have the AIP or not, so we will have to wait and see.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:50 pm

    First plan was to equip the Lada class with AIP from the fifth sub. The Navy didn´t like this, that´s why the production was stopped for a few years. Either the AIP is ready now and will be fitted from the fourth sub or all twelve will be "normal" diesel subs.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:09 am


    They are newer, faster, quieter, need less crew and there will be double digit number of them so excellent news.

    As for AIP, they designed to be equipped with it should it become available so there is no problem here.

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    Post  hoom on Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:51 am

    Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs
    Interesting.
    verkhoturye51 is taking use of 'diesel-electric' as 'no AIP' which may be correct implication but isn't explicitly stated.
    Certainly 12 Ladas would mean Kalina is a long way off.

    12 would presumably be 6 each for North & Baltic?
    Still leaves a gap for up to 6 for Tartus/completing BSF squadron, maybe another 6 split between North & Pacific?
    According to Wiki USSR/post-soviet Russia had 24 original 877 Kilos, anyone know how those were split?
    I have the idea they had more than 6 in North/Pacific -> less in Baltic/Black sea, probably somewhat affected by Soviets keeping a heap of older sub classes 'in service' though.

    Some pics from Balancer
    2nd or 3rd hull without sonar
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 14 NskR_3fwPjE

    Line drawings
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 14 12-6761333-pr.677-nar.vid
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 14 12-6761333-pr.677-skhema-apalkov.t.1.ch.2-
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:30 am

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 14 001212
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    Post  hoom on Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:25 am

    Yeah thats the current setup but its including the new 6 for BSF, only has 16 of the original 24 Kilos included.
    I'm interested in where those 8 retired Kilos were & if there was a post-soviet rebalance at some point.

    Anyway, ppl at Balancer pointed out that just before that section the quote talks about '636.3 for North' rather than Pacific.
    Either there has been a destination change or the reporter has at least partially mis-understood -> 12 Ladas may also be wrong.
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    Post  Hole on Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:07 pm

    2 or 3 were scrapped.

    6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
    6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

    6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
    6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?

    Composition would make sense.

    Plus some old Kilos modernised to use Kalibers.

    Here the russian navy can choose what it wants. More Kilos. More Ladas. How many new Kalinas?
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    Post  kumbor on Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:52 pm

    Hole wrote:2 or 3 were scrapped.

    6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
    6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

    6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
    6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?

    Composition would make sense.

    Plus some old Kilos modernised to use Kalibers.

    Here the russian navy can choose what it wants. More Kilos. More Ladas. How many new Kalinas?

    Kalina is still in early development stage. We cannot guess how many will be built, if any!
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    Post  Hole on Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:46 pm

    This is what I wanted to say. The Navy can choose between three designs, one which proved itself (Kilo), a new one (Lada) and a future design (Kalina). If the development of Kalina needs a few more years it won´t be a problem.
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    Post  kumbor on Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:15 pm

    Hole wrote:This is what I wanted to say. The Navy can choose between three designs, one which proved itself (Kilo), a new one (Lada) and a future design (Kalina). If the development of Kalina needs a few more years it won´t be a problem.

    I agree that AIP sub is not by any means and always better than DE -SSK sub. If Russians make progress with new batteries and a permasyn type motor, the difference is not so large. Sub on batteries is also very quiet. and the sole source of noise rests the motor - as is on fuel cell sub!
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:47 am

    Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:43 am

    GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

    Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?
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    Post  Teshub on Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:51 am

    kumbor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

    Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?
    Smile We've only had them for over a century now...
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:25 am

    Teshub wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

    Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?
    Smile  We've only had them for over a century now...

    @Teshub, @ Garry B, By my opinion nuclear batteries are batteries working on nuclear - atomic fission. The atom was first fissioned by Rutherford in 1935, or I am an idiot? First nuclear reactor was made for purpose of Manhattan project in early 40s. So, what are nuclear batteries to produce electricity by nuclear fission, without primary circle to heat water and without need to heat water in secondary circle and power turbine by steam. Turbine than runs E-generators. Fuel cells are not nuclear batteries. dunno
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    Post  chinggis on Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:58 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    Teshub wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

    Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?
    Smile  We've only had them for over a century now...

    @Teshub, @ Garry B, By my opinion nuclear batteries are batteries working on nuclear - atomic fission. The atom was first fissioned by Rutherford in 1935, or I am an idiot? First nuclear reactor was made for purpose of Manhattan project in early 40s. So, what are nuclear batteries to produce electricity by nuclear fission, without primary circle to heat water and without need to heat water in secondary circle and power turbine by steam. Turbine than runs E-generators. Fuel cells are not nuclear batteries. dunno

    Soviet Union is advanced in RTG generators, they made some of them for space use and put it in spacecraft, some of them are made for use in lighthouses on northern passage and for radio relay stations without human crew, if my memory is well, I think they put it on a Voyager II. After brake of SU, and in times of warm period with USA, Russian send one mock up of RTG to USA and never get it back Smile, because Senate is forbidden exporting nuclear technology in SU or Russia Smile (funny isn't it). One of key problems with them is low power output, and SU and now Russian are looking in how to make more powerful RTG setup. Most of this work is not public and information what we know are decade old. And RTG is one of possibility's what are opened by radioisotopes decay, there is other options how to use radioisotopes for producing electricity but output is low and not economical but for special purpose is acceptable.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:31 pm

    chinggis wrote:Soviet Union is advanced in RTG generators, they made some of them for space use and put it in spacecraft, some of them are made for use in lighthouses on northern passage and for radio relay stations without human crew, if my memory is well, I think they put it on a Voyager II. After brake of SU, and in times of warm period with USA, Russian send one mock up of RTG to USA and never get it back Smile, because Senate is forbidden exporting nuclear technology in SU or Russia Smile (funny isn't it). One of key problems with them is low power output, and SU and now Russian are looking in how to make more powerful RTG setup. Most of this work is not public and information what we know are decade old. And RTG is one of possibility's what are opened by radioisotopes decay, there is other options how to use radioisotopes for producing electricity but output is low and not economical but for special purpose is acceptable.    

    The phrase "nuclear battery" is used for RTGs, but they are low-power devices, usually with an output of a few kW at most. They are basically a large number of thermocouples wrapped around a hot core of fuel, usually Pu238. They can run for decades without refuelling, with power levels dropping exponentially as fuel decays (the Voyager probes launched by NASA in 1977 are still functioning today after >40 years).

    RTGs are great for robotic space probes, and could be applied to small ultra-long duration UUVs, but they are useless for propulsion for any practical manned vehicles or water craft.
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    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:21 am

    Plans to build at least 12 submarines of the project 677 for Russian Navy

    In 2019, the Navy plans to accept the Prince Vladimir and Kazan nuclear submarines built at the Sevmash enterprise in Severodvinsk. The construction of a series of diesel-electric submarines of project 636.3 for the submarine forces of the Northern Fleet will continue, as well as serial construction for the Navy of at least 12 units of the latest diesel-electric submarines of the Lada type.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3430481.html
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    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:18 am

    6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
    6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

    6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
    6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?
    Ladas not Kalina.

    My interest in the historical split is because recent history prior to the BSF 6 they had most in North & Pacific, presumably guarding SSBNs? -> may want to repeat that rather than even groups of 6.
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    Post  kumbor on Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:39 am

    hoom wrote:
    6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
    6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

    6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
    6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?
    Ladas not Kalina.

    My interest in the historical split is because recent history prior to the BSF 6 they had most in North & Pacific, presumably guarding SSBNs? -> may want to repeat that rather than even groups of 6.

    According to soviet/russian strategy, SSKs are to be used for "bastion defence" - defence of littoral areas from which SSBNs operate, as well as for disruption of commercial routes throughout the oceans.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:04 am

    kumbor wrote:

    According to soviet/russian strategy, SSKs are to be used for "bastion defence" - defence of littoral areas from which SSBNs operate, as well as for disruption of commercial routes throughout the oceans.

    That was true when they had more than 300 subs in the 70s and 80s. Now don't even have enough to protect their coast.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:07 am

    Back then Amiland had 150+ subs, now around 50.
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    Post  Teshub on Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:06 am

    kumbor wrote:@Teshub, @ Garry B, By my opinion nuclear batteries are batteries working on nuclear - atomic fission. The atom was first fissioned by Rutherford in 1935, or I am an idiot? First nuclear reactor was made for purpose of Manhattan project in early 40s. So, what are nuclear batteries to produce electricity by nuclear fission, without primary circle to heat water and without need to heat water in secondary circle and power turbine by steam. Turbine than runs E-generators. Fuel cells are not nuclear batteries. dunno
    You forgot about naturally occurring fission. It was Henry Moseley in 1912 who created the first beta cell, placing radioactive Radium inside a sphere of silver, to collect charge from the beta radiation. Here are a couple of links which you may find interesting...

    https://www.facebook.com/iaeaorg/posts/he-was-the-inventor-of-the-first-atomic-battery-and-the-first-scientist-to-give-/10153885328662062/

    http://www.rexresearch.com/nucell/nucell.htm

    Alpha and Beta-voltaics are not great at high current applications, but are more energy efficient than RTGs, have greater energy density than electro-chemical cells, and decades long lifespans. There was an article circulating sometime back in June which discussed recent Russian research into radioactive nickle betavoltaic batteries.

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