Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine

hoom wrote:Semi-OT but since Li-ion batteries have been discussed: https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3366556.html
Japan launched the first Li-ion battery equipped sub

Says it gets about the same underwater endurance as AIP but unlike AIP can recharge with the diesels (& quicker charge than lead-acid batteries).
Costs about $100mil more than the conventional version.

Li-Ion are obviously superior to lead acid batteries in performance but they are not safe until they make them solid state.

Are they not solid state already? Or just not at the scale needed for subs?

On the one hand there's like billions of ppl walking around all day, every day with Li-ion batteries in their pockets with relatively few cases of them exploding, on the other hand with all the problems Boeing has had with airliner batteries the idea of having similar issues with a couple orders of magnitude more battery & 300m of ocean overhead is super-terrifying.

hoom wrote:Are they not solid state already? Or just not at the scale needed for subs?

On the one hand there's like billions of ppl walking around all day, every day with Li-ion batteries in their pockets with relatively few cases of them exploding, on the other hand with all the problems Boeing has had with airliner batteries the idea of having similar issues with a couple orders of magnitude more battery & 300m of ocean overhead is super-terrifying.

The Lithium batteries can not be charged around freezing point.

Trying to charge it at low temperature lead to hydrogen built up.

The lead-acid is more flexible and can work in wider operating environment.

So, it is not that simple just to swap the batteries, they need good thermal management.

I read that china has working AIPs in service since like 2015. Why not buy it from them. Whatever safety risks chinese AIPs carry, surely it would be better than waiting 5-10 more years for a russian version to be developed?

PTURBG wrote:I read that china has working AIPs in service since like 2015. Why not buy it from them. Whatever safety risks chinese AIPs carry, surely it would be better than waiting 5-10 more years for a russian version to be developed?

The AIP doesn't means better submarine than a diesel electric one.

The swap of lead to lithium could means active thermal management, with cooling liquid circulation.
It require pumps and heat exhangers, means all component has to be silent, AND safe.

In the case of AIP the situation is the same, it is quieter than a diesel during charge, but can be more noisy than a diesel during electrical mode.

So, the challenge is not just simply swap the batteries/ diesel and so on, but to make every element of the system quiet.

The AIP can be good for long range /deep sea deployments, IF quiet enough .

hoom wrote:Are they not solid state already? Or just not at the scale needed for subs?

On the one hand there's like billions of ppl walking around all day, every day with Li-ion batteries in their pockets with relatively few cases of them exploding, on the other hand with all the problems Boeing has had with airliner batteries the idea of having similar issues with a couple orders of magnitude more battery & 300m of ocean overhead is super-terrifying.

They are not solid state, the first submarine scheduled with solid state batteries is the Australian Shortfin Barracuda.

Singular_Transform wrote:

PTURBG wrote:I read that china has working AIPs in service since like 2015. Why not buy it from them. Whatever safety risks chinese AIPs carry, surely it would be better than waiting 5-10 more years for a russian version to be developed?

The AIP doesn't means better submarine than a diesel electric one.

The swap of lead to lithium could means active thermal management, with cooling liquid circulation.
It require pumps and heat exhangers, means all component has to be silent, AND safe.

In the case of AIP the situation is the same, it is quieter than a diesel during charge, but can be more noisy than a diesel during electrical mode.

So, the challenge is not just simply swap the batteries/ diesel and so on, but to make every element of the system quiet.

The AIP can be good for long range /deep sea deployments, IF quiet enough  .

Both Stirling (external combustion) and MESMA (turbine) are engines with mowing parts. Only fuel cells have no mowing parts - and therefore, they are as quiet as sub on batteries.

Some pics of a partly constructed hull, unclear if its recent pics of the 3rd or older pics of one of the first 2.

http://tass.com/defense/1032462 wrote:Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs

Goodbye Kalina, goodbye AIP.

verkhoturye51 wrote:

http://tass.com/defense/1032462 wrote:Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs

Goodbye Kalina, goodbye AIP.

AIP is initially for Lada class. Actually, first one had a testing unit I believe. Future were supposed to get it as well. So don't just knock it yet.

miketheterrible wrote:

verkhoturye51 wrote:

http://tass.com/defense/1032462 wrote:Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs

Goodbye Kalina, goodbye AIP.

AIP is initially for Lada class.  Actually, first one had a testing unit I believe.  Future were supposed to get it as well.  So don't just knock it yet.

What??

No, i am pretty sure there was no testing unit when the first sub came out, the AIP was still under development back then.

As for these new Lada subs, they don't mention whether they'll have the AIP or not, so we will have to wait and see.

First plan was to equip the Lada class with AIP from the fifth sub. The Navy didn´t like this, that´s why the production was stopped for a few years. Either the AIP is ready now and will be fitted from the fourth sub or all twelve will be "normal" diesel subs.

They are newer, faster, quieter, need less crew and there will be double digit number of them so excellent news.

As for AIP, they designed to be equipped with it should it become available so there is no problem here.

Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs

Interesting.
verkhoturye51 is taking use of 'diesel-electric' as 'no AIP' which may be correct implication but isn't explicitly stated.
Certainly 12 Ladas would mean Kalina is a long way off.

12 would presumably be 6 each for North & Baltic?
Still leaves a gap for up to 6 for Tartus/completing BSF squadron, maybe another 6 split between North & Pacific?
According to Wiki USSR/post-soviet Russia had 24 original 877 Kilos, anyone know how those were split?
I have the idea they had more than 6 in North/Pacific -> less in Baltic/Black sea, probably somewhat affected by Soviets keeping a heap of older sub classes 'in service' though.

Some pics from Balancer
2nd or 3rd hull without sonar


Line drawings

Yeah thats the current setup but its including the new 6 for BSF, only has 16 of the original 24 Kilos included.
I'm interested in where those 8 retired Kilos were & if there was a post-soviet rebalance at some point.

Anyway, ppl at Balancer pointed out that just before that section the quote talks about '636.3 for North' rather than Pacific.
Either there has been a destination change or the reporter has at least partially mis-understood -> 12 Ladas may also be wrong.

2 or 3 were scrapped.

6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?

Composition would make sense.

Plus some old Kilos modernised to use Kalibers.

Here the russian navy can choose what it wants. More Kilos. More Ladas. How many new Kalinas?

Hole wrote:2 or 3 were scrapped.

6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?

Composition would make sense.

Plus some old Kilos modernised to use Kalibers.

Here the russian navy can choose what it wants. More Kilos. More Ladas. How many new Kalinas?

Kalina is still in early development stage. We cannot guess how many will be built, if any!

This is what I wanted to say. The Navy can choose between three designs, one which proved itself (Kilo), a new one (Lada) and a future design (Kalina). If the development of Kalina needs a few more years it won´t be a problem.

Hole wrote:This is what I wanted to say. The Navy can choose between three designs, one which proved itself (Kilo), a new one (Lada) and a future design (Kalina). If the development of Kalina needs a few more years it won´t be a problem.

I agree that AIP sub is not by any means and always better than DE -SSK sub. If Russians make progress with new batteries and a permasyn type motor, the difference is not so large. Sub on batteries is also very quiet. and the sole source of noise rests the motor - as is on fuel cell sub!

GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?

kumbor wrote:

GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?

We've only had them for over a century now...