There are nowhere near as good as nuclear subs. AIP gives them some more time under water. The submarine keeps the same caracteristics.
Ironically the class of subs we are talking about... essentially the long range sub that is very true and very accurate.
For smaller shorter ranged SSKs their reduced size and weight and ability to manouver make them better than much bigger heavier nuclear subs and their lack of speed and endurance is not so much a big deal because being coastal only they don't have to go very far or very fast.
SSKs do have areas where they are certainly the best choice but long range long endurance is not something they need to be good at except for navies that don't have nuclear powered alternatives.
They are not more stealthy. Once the AIP system empty they will have to surface and run their diesel engines just like old submarines.
When running on batteries they are the quietest subs available, but some AIP systems do make noise... even if it is just pumping fuel from tanks to Stirling engines... Hydrogen fuel cells have no moving parts and act like a chemical motor and would be the most efficient AIP except their low power output in terms of what Germany is currently using... and they are the experts AFAIK with hydrogen fuel cell technology.
So yes for export they better propose AIP but for their own kilo and lada they don't really need it.
I seem to remember in an article I read about the Kilo in competition for an Indian order that they had worked out that with current Hydrogen fuel cells the danger of carrying around liquid oxygen tanks and low energy output that actually replacing the lead acid batteries and the Hydrogen fuel cells plus their oxygen tanks, with Lithium Ion batteries would lead to better performance than just replacing the lead acid batteries with Li Ion batteries but still developing a new AIP Hydrogen fuel cell and using the fuel cells and liquid oxygen tanks needed to make it work. I rather suspect the Japanese came to the same conclusion and swapped their stirling engine and fuel and oxygen tanks with extra li-Ion batteries and replaced existing lead acid batteries for better overall performance and lower costs and improved safety...
If an export country demands AIP they are striving to develop one, but I don't think the Russian military is fully funding it because I doubt they see value in it.
It would probably be more cost effective to replace all existing batteries with Lithium Ion batteries.
Ask them. Poloand just made an exercice and found out in 3 days russia would take their country. Yet they want to upgrade their f-16. Either they have some other potential enemies thay are not powerfull like Russia or they are stupid.
They buy Americas cast offs, because that is how you stay in the club.
But I am not saying they are not stupid.
Those east european countries have no chance to win against Russia.
It was a buffer area to fight on for the Soviet Union and is a buffer area for HATO to fight on now... the nukes will still be landing on them from both directions...
I know T72 is out of production, i was comparing Kilos with T72 and Lada with T14.
Well you shouldn't. The Kilo is more like a T-90 and still perfectly viable to use anywhere including front line European theatre... not the most powerful tank there but one of the cheapest and with all the extras it has reasonable armour and good mobility and decent optics and good fire power... that the T-14 will be better means nothing till it is in production and widespread service.
The Kilo is an excellent SSK with a range of powerful weapons including new torpedoes and rocket propelled ballistic anti sub weapons and land attack cruise missiles that can be launched from its torpedo tubes.
It has good quality sonar and other sensors and good communications equipment.
Once Lada has completed tests and the upgraded next two are accepted into service and get the thumbs up then that class of sub can go into service for domestic use... export customers can make their own decision, but their choice will be limited to 300km range weapons so they wont be getting the same deal as with the better weapons the Russian Navy has access to.
I dont think we will ever see a full scale production of Ladas, they are not that better then the Kilos.
Ladas are over 500 tons lighter, have half the crew size, a generation newer sonar and electronics and systems... they are clearly better than teh Kilos, but it is clear that the Russian Navy also still want to fully test the changes made to both the first sub and the other two that got upgrades and changes based on the tests of the first sub.
I would say that the designer said the two new Lada boats would not have AIPs because they probably made teh same decision the Japanese did with their latest Soruyo class sub and replaced the AIP systems with just more Lithium Ion batteries... because they are just better... safer and silent... and possibly cheaper.
Better to go with Kalinas with AIP and with the sonar and stuff they have completed on the Ladas.
They dropped the AIPs for Lada because they clearly are not worth it... I would suspect the Kalinas will likely just use even more Lithium Ion batteries and a more efficient electric motor... probably with high tech electric motors that are supercooled or something...
No need to be patronising, yes the AIP keeps batteries hold 20 days instead of 3 days, a big difference for stealth. If you want to be really quite you only have to turn of the AIP, no need to keep it running all the time.
The Kilo class sub can operate for about 5 days on batteries AFAIK... they were talking about Lithium Ion batteries extending that to two weeks.
That is interesting, the AIP is nothing self needed if you can get 20 days under water with ion batteries, great. Just how long would it take to charge this massive battery bank though?
Modern high current charging techiques a few hours... would be easily achievable a fully loaded Improved Kilo is about 4K tons submerged... a Lada class is about 2.7K tons submerged... so smaller and lighter to have to push around.
You say against yourself, its the AIP that makes the subs more stealthy, they dont need to snorkle.
But unless they want to travel at 5knts everywhere they do need to snorkle too...
I disagree, to be able to stay submerged and stealthy for 20 days can never be "not needed", even if they are in Black sea or Baltic. These are still vast areas and you keep up snorkeling is going to make you detected.
So the only effective SSKs have AIPs?
Sounds like the claim you don't have a fighter if it does not have an AESA radar...
Ever heard of Hato? Or do you imagine Russia and Polen fighting a war all alone? Do you think these east european countries will be picked of one at a time?
It will be where HATO forces form up and get nuked. It is where Americas ABM system will be based which will also get it nuked in the first few minutes of any nuke war.
Joining Hato isnt only about defence, its about politics. Buying military hardware in exchange for loans and market acces.
Totally agree... except I think the word Only is redundant and should be removed...
Still, that doesnt change the fact that both Kilos and Ladas is inferior in certain parameters because they lack AIP. You say they dont need it, i disagree.
When they nuke Polish ABM sites with nuclear armed land attack cruise missiles from the Black Sea from 2,500km range will the Poles be able to tell if they were on batteries or snorkling at the time?
LiON batteris could give the same benefit for diesel submarines, for less cost actually.
Something the Russians and the Japanese have realised already.
Yasen/borei have a cost of 800 million. Export kilo can hit 450 million. I would rather have a yasen with 32 VLS and 30 torpedo than 2 kilo with 17 torpedo each and AIP.
I do agree but for coastal use a smaller lighter Lada class sub that is slightly faster than the Kilo and can carry 18 torpedoes and 10 Calibre land attack missiles or Calibre supersonic anti ship missiles, but has no AIP but does have Lithium Ion batteries and an underwater endurance of a couple of weeks I think the Lada is not a bad choice.
I will print it here so all get an understanding what AIP really is and what it really means. I especially welcomes Garry and Isos to read it.
There was nothing there I did not already know... a diesel electric sub is both the noisiest and the quietest sub there is... running diesel engines makes more noise than a nuclear power plant that pumps coolant and generates electricity through steam driven gas turbines, but running on batteries it is much quieter than a nuke... only prop noise generally.
An AIP comes in many different forms, from Stirling engines to hydrogen fuel cells... the point is that the quietest any sub sails is on electric battery power and so Russia and Japan are electing to bypass Stirling engines (Japan) and hydrogen fuel cells (Russia) for just a lot more batteries.
Most nuclear powered subs have backup generators that can be diesel motors or gas turbines or battery backup power supplies too.
AIP submarines are much more advanced and capable of underwater warfare, than conventional diesel electric submarines, being able to stay underwater for much longer time, up to 1-2 months, and sail at much higher speed.
This sounds like a sales pitch... the capability of a sub is more than just how long the batteries last... a crappy sub with rubbish sonar gear and a clunky poorly designed propeller with the latest AIP that can allow it to stay underwater for 2 years is still a crappy sub.
The fact that the article is trying to tell you that AIPs make all subs perfect suggests this article is biased and also wrong.
Thailand is buying from China Yuan Class S26 T boats, which were said to have been developed exclusively for Thailand based on China’s Yuan Class Type 039 A submarines.
They would be nearly 78 metres long and 9 metres wide, equipped with the latest technology AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system, that would allow them to dive consecutively up to 21 days without surfacing.
Didn't it just say AIPs allow remaining submerged and silent for 1-2 months... 21 days is not 1-2 months... in fact it is three weeks... one week longer than an Improved Kilo with Lithium Ion batteries... big deal.
Soviet engineers and shipbuilders didn’t create their own, original AIP technologies. They obtained AIP technologies after WWII, while scavenging in the ruins of devastated Germany’s industries. It didn’t help Soviets much – up until now Russia doesn’t have full-fledged AIP submarine.
It didn't help much because it isn't good enough to improve the subs performance so they didn't bother putting them in to any active sub designs.
Their coastal types don't need to remain hidden for 2 weeks at a time and the ones that do are already nuclear powered.
With many pains, Russia built only one “Lada” type submarine (Project 677), under the name of “Sankt-Peterburg”, in 2004, she was commissioned in 2010, but is still undergoing trials, to be put under repairs and modernization soon (not yet being fully operational). Submarine has fallen far short of requirements, the main problem being AIP. Also there were a number of other major issues.
Quite a few of its new features needed work to get right, and it is pretty clear that an all Lithium Ion battery system coupled with diesel generators is what they are moving forward with...
BTW to put it in perspective the Kilo class has a voyage endurance of 35 days so being able to remain submerged continuously for 14 days on batteries means probably the first 14 days of the trip with fully charged batteries can be submerged, and then perhaps a day or two snorkling to recharge and perhaps move a reasonable distance... another 14 days submerged and it is about time to head home again...
Russia is not exactly a paragon of technological breakthroughs, Russia lags on Soviet know-how (which in their turn, were mostly bought, or stolen, in the West – submarines, battle tanks, rockets and jet engines, to name very few).
BTW the Russians were working on submarines at the same time as people in the west... they got their hands on German designs after the war but that is fair payment for the brutal destruction those
had just ravaged Russian territory. Again... the western tank examples were handed to Russia by western countries keen to help them learn, and rockets... Russia was a pioneer of Rocket technology and jet engine technology. They bought jet engines from Britain and received jet engines from Germany but the engines in the MiG-15 in Korea were rather more powerful than any German or British engine they got their hands on a few years before...
The Nene they received was 726kgs and generated 22.2kN of thrust, the Klimov VK-1F the Soviets used in the MiG-17 had an 872kg dry weight and generated 26.5kN... in dry thrust and 33.8kN in afterburner... strange that a country that knows nothing about jet engines and learned everything from the British engines they bought could improve performance by that much so quickly...
not sure how good or bad his info is but I noted he is a ruskie who fled the country years ago after leaking info.
It shows... russia invents nothing and just copies the west.
Would be interesting to find out if that is what he actually believes or if he just has to say that to get published in the west...
No it wouldn't... don't really care...