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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:50 am

    First two are heading to the Baltic fleet assuming they do build two more word is maybe the Nothern will get those.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:03 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:First two are heading to the Baltic fleet assuming they do build two more word is maybe the Nothern will get those.


    hmm Baltic Fleet has so far 1 Sub? I hope all 4 will end up in Baltic Fleet then
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    Post  hoom on Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:21 pm

    But its 3 or 5 not 4.
    There are the 2 launched, 1 more in construction & 2 more just announced.
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    Post  kumbor on Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:37 pm

    hoom wrote:But its 3 or 5 not 4.
    There are the 2 launched, 1 more in construction & 2 more just announced.

    These subs are the first single-hulled boats in russian navy for 50 years or more. By russian standards they are rather small so they are optimised for littorals, say Baltic and Black sea in perspective.
    Russians have been working on fuel-cell propulsion for almost 20 years. Evidently, fuel cells are still not ripe to be installed aboard submarine. In comparison to Stirling and MESMA, fuel cells are the most advanced source of energy and also the most expensive. The lead ship, Sankt Peterburg is in experimental service for almost ten years. Some kind of Permasyn motor has been copied from Germans, thanks to FSB espionage, but russian variant had problems with obtaining sufficient power. Also there were problems with sonar suite of a new model! New builds were therefore suspended until problems are solved. Launching of Kronshtadt can mean that problems are overcome... probably.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:58 pm

    hoom wrote:But its 3 or 5 not 4.
    There are the 2 launched, 1 more in construction & 2 more just announced.

    The first lada is a pure test bed ship the thing was crap do not count it has a combat ship, they flat out rejected the first lada has it failed state tests. The ship did its job already it showed them what they did wrong and they corrected the problems.

    It's four not five assuming they do build two more.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:35 pm

    kumbor wrote:These subs are the first single-hulled boats in russian navy for 50 years or more.

    Yasen boats are also single hull...Severodvinsk laid down in 1993
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    Post  George1 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:07 am

    hoom wrote:But its 3 or 5 not 4.
    There are the 2 launched, 1 more in construction & 2 more just announced.

    the lead ship will be used as experimental only?
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:14 am

    George1 wrote:
    hoom wrote:But its 3 or 5 not 4.
    There are the 2 launched, 1 more in construction & 2 more just announced.

    the lead ship will be used as experimental only?

    According to the source, SSK St. Petersburg will not be commissioned into the Navy and remain an experimental prototype:

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=13698
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    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:32 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    kumbor wrote:These subs are the first single-hulled boats in russian navy for 50 years or more.

    Yasen boats are also single hull...Severodvinsk laid down in 1993

    The improvement of torpedos made double hull useless. Double hull used to provide very good protection but since torpedos can penetrate them they stped increasing the weight for no sugnificant advantages.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:25 am


    These subs seem to be chosen replacements​ for Kilos

    While they still don't have AIP fact remains that they are new designs and that every piece of equipment on them is new (redesigned based on St. Petersburg test performance over the years)

    Navy most likely wanted to switch to new and improved model but did not want to delay whole project over one component

    This way they can get the production rolling and test all that new stuff they installed so far

    Also, in addition to having smaller crew than Kilos these new subs are also cheaper than them (according to HI Sutton)
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    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:24 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    These subs seem to be chosen replacements​ for Kilos

    While they still don't have AIP fact remains that they are new designs and that every piece of equipment on them is new (redesigned based on St. Petersburg test performance over the years)

    Navy most likely wanted to switch to new and improved model but did not want to delay whole project over one component

    This way they can get the production rolling and test all that new stuff they installed so far

    Also, in addition to having smaller crew than Kilos these new subs are also cheaper than them (according to HI Sutton)

    Those are for testing AIP technology and for baltics. Kilo replacement will be Kalina with VLS and AIP so a little bit bigger than this class.

    Lada are not really new neither.
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    Post  kumbor on Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:39 pm

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    These subs seem to be chosen replacements​ for Kilos

    While they still don't have AIP fact remains that they are new designs and that every piece of equipment on them is new (redesigned based on St. Petersburg test performance over the years)

    Navy most likely wanted to switch to new and improved model but did not want to delay whole project over one component

    This way they can get the production rolling and test all that new stuff they installed so far

    Also, in addition to having smaller crew than Kilos these new subs are also cheaper than them (according to HI Sutton)

    Those are for testing AIP technology and for baltics. Kilo replacement will be Kalina with VLS and AIP so a little bit bigger than this class.

    Lada are not really new neither.

    Pr.877/636 Kilo class is now almost 40 years old - counting from the year of putting in service the lead SSK! Pr.677 Lada is the first new SSK project after the dissolution of USSR and following "wild nineties "smuta" when only a few already laid down 877/636 hulls were completed. So, in comparison with succesful Kilos, they are new, although maybe "temporary" project while Kalina with AIP is developed. I don`t consider newbuilt 636.6 for Black sea fleet a failure, as they have improved propulsion, new electronics and effective Kalibr-PL aboard. B-871 Alrosa also has experimental pump-jet propulsor. Kilos were not revolutionary design, but they were modern, first russian SSK to boast all-electric propulsion (where DG are used only for charging batteries), and they are very quiet (dubbed "black holes" in the West), but they are manpower intensive. As Russians are the "champions" of submarine construction, every new project is welcome!
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    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:27 pm

    the lead ship will be used as experimental only?
    Yeah if thats the case then a group of 4 would make some sense.

    These subs seem to be chosen replacements​ for Kilos
    Well that was certainly the original plan but more recently its been to just finish off the 2 partly built hulls & be done with it till the Kalinas.

    I guess of they're building more Ladas they've either got the important bits working well enough (at least to be better than more Kilos) or Kalinas are still a long way away, maybe both.

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A0%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BD1/ has at least some brave talk about systems now being up to par
    Google Translate wrote:According to the director of "Rubin", now "St. Petersburg" successfully completes the pilot operation in the Northern Fleet: the boat not only confirmed the specified characteristics, but also surpassed them. Vilnit added that "Kronstadt" implemented not only the solutions already tested, but also those scientific and technological achievements that have yet to be approved. The designers are confident in the successful application of new solutions, the general director of "Rubin" said.

    I was pretty intrigued about this pic of St Petersburg in construction
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 12 677_okeanpribor_02
    Thats a pretty big sonar & I believe a conformal array which is the new fangled thing.
    Probably explains a lot about development troubles aside from the AIP & if software/computing power was problematic could explain why now (with possibly newer processors/years of extra coding time) it could be beating the specs.

    Compare with 636 sonar
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 12 1958503_original

    Also Marching Girls were present Very Happy
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 12 677_KRONSHTADT_180920_1_06
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:37 pm

    Kalina was supposed to be replacement project for Kilo and Lada. Only 2 years ago, Admiralty shipyard announced the construction would commence in 2018. But than arrived new order for 6 Kilos for Pacific fleet and now 2 Ladas. The point of Kalina is AIP, that was supposed to be ready in 2021-2022, according to the United shipbuilding corporation. So I think there are some problems on this front. Otherwise, we should know at least the design and specifications by now.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:32 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Those are for testing AIP technology and for baltics. Kilo replacement will be Kalina with VLS and AIP so a little bit bigger than this class.

    Lada are not really new neither.

    I really doubt that they got VLS, unless usage of Zircon will get a must. 6 torpedo tubes if just fine for small salvo of Kalibrs/mini Brahmos and VLS make sub bulkier and more expensive.

    @Papa @kumbor
    I just wonder if next AIP subs will have also "ocean going" variant. Then bigger size would matter
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    Post  kumbor on Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:37 pm

    hoom wrote:
    the lead ship will be used as experimental only?
    Yeah if thats the case then a group of 4 would make some sense.

    These subs seem to be chosen replacements​ for Kilos
    Well that was certainly the original plan but more recently its been to just finish off the 2 partly built hulls & be done with it till the Kalinas.

    I guess of they're building more Ladas they've either got the important bits working well enough (at least to be better than more Kilos) or Kalinas are still a long way away, maybe both.

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A0%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BD1/ has at least some brave talk about systems now being up to par
    Google Translate wrote:According to the director of "Rubin", now "St. Petersburg" successfully completes the pilot operation in the Northern Fleet: the boat not only confirmed the specified characteristics, but also surpassed them. Vilnit added that "Kronstadt" implemented not only the solutions already tested, but also those scientific and technological achievements that have yet to be approved. The designers are confident in the successful application of new solutions, the general director of "Rubin" said.

    I was pretty intrigued about this pic of St Petersburg in construction
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 12 677_okeanpribor_02
    Thats a pretty big sonar & I believe a conformal array which is the new fangled thing.
    Probably explains a lot about development troubles aside from the AIP & if software/computing power was problematic could explain why now (with possibly newer processors/years of extra coding time) it could be beating the specs.

    Compare with 636 sonar
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 12 1958503_original

    Also Marching Girls were present Very Happy
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 12 677_KRONSHTADT_180920_1_06

    I think that big bow mounted sonar is "Irtish-Amfora" model ?
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:38 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Kalina was supposed to be replacement project for Kilo and Lada. Only 2 years ago, Admiralty shipyard announced the construction would commence in 2018. But than arrived new order for 6 Kilos for Pacific fleet and now 2 Ladas. The point of Kalina is AIP, that was supposed to be ready in 2021-2022, according to the United shipbuilding corporation. So I think there are some problems on this front. Otherwise, we should know at least the design and specifications by now.

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0372/

    They say it is ongoing. Perhaps not only technical problems but also money. Anyway theres no money for Kalinasnow. BTW Kilos 636 werent ordered 3x6? North, Pacific, Black sea fleets?
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:01 pm

    Kilo 2x6 - Black sea and Pacific fleets

    I don't know man, the design shouldn't be so costly. We know the design of top secret Husky class, design buros make several proposed designs for CVNs probably few decades in advance, so what's the problem here? Perhaps coordination between Navy needs, Ministry budget and shipyard capabilities. Which is going slow due to lower importance of this project, in comparison to Husky and CVNs.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:53 pm

    So this pic is actually much older than July Embarassed
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 12 4540670_original
    Its here in August 2017 & possibly older than that https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2781767.html
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    Post  kumbor on Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:12 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    kumbor wrote:These subs are the first single-hulled boats in russian navy for 50 years or more.

    Yasen boats are also single hull...Severodvinsk laid down in 1993

    Both pr.677 and pr.885 have partial double hull construction - along some compartments there is double hull. Watch the longitudinal section!
    Also, concerning survivability of double hull construction, pr.941 Akula - NATO Typhoon were specially designed to survive at least one, possibly even two hits of Mk-48 torpedo when dived. Except for missile containers abreast of tower, pr.949 Antey - NATO Oscar were also projected to survive Mk-48 hit.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:20 pm

    Some kind of Permasyn motor has been copied from Germans, thanks to FSB espionage, but russian variant had problems with obtaining sufficient power.

    The Germans don't have the AIP technology they are going to be using... the Germans have hydrogen fuel cell technology, the AIP technology they are using uses diesel fuel instead of Hydrogen...

    According to the source, SSK St. Petersburg will not be commissioned into the Navy and remain an experimental prototype:

    The first Lada vessel will be used for testing new technologies and equipment so subs from the fleet don't need to be taken from service for the role.

    The improvement of torpedos made double hull useless. Double hull used to provide very good protection but since torpedos can penetrate them they stped increasing the weight for no sugnificant advantages.

    Not true, the Oscar class sub could really only be reliably sunk by an internal explosion of most of its torpedoes as an example... there was 3m filled with water between its inner and outer hull, which is full of equipment and water ballast... unpressurised and excellent protection for the inner hull.

    As Russians are the "champions" of submarine construction, every new project is welcome!

    Indeed, the Lada class have rather better sonar sensors of rather better performance, and are much better in almost every parameter than the subs that came before them.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:40 pm

    The Germans don't have the AIP technology they are going to be using
    At first I thought he meant AIP too but turns out Permasyn is a brand of permanent magnet electric motor made by Siemens for subs https://www.industry.siemens.com/verticals/global/en/marine/submarines/propulsion/permasyn/pages/default.aspx

    I recall mention of new permanent magnet electric motors for a new ship (can't remember which?) fairly recently, not heard any mention of espionage Suspect

    So problems with AIP, electric motor & the sonar, no wonder it was considered a writeoff.

    On the topic of 1st ship, if its experimental mission has successfully brought the motor & sonar 'up to speed' and there isn't something fundamentally wrong with it (like hull construction issues causing limited dive depth) then surely it should be expected to enter regular service?
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:25 am

    On the topic of 1st ship, if its experimental mission has successfully brought the motor & sonar 'up to speed' and there isn't something fundamentally wrong with it (like hull construction issues causing limited dive depth) then surely it should be expected to enter regular service?

    I think the real problem was that expectations were very high, and while most of the issues have been fixed, in the years it has taken to get it up to scratch they have probably developed new solutions and new materials and new systems and want to step it up another level... plus all the obvious issues of replacing all the components to make sure they are all Russian made would be an issue as well.


    At first I thought he meant AIP too but turns out Permasyn is a brand of permanent magnet electric motor made by Siemens for subs

    Who knows if that is even related to the Lada class subs... all the information I have seen about their AIP using diesel as the catalyst seems to suggest it generates rather more power than pure hydrogen fuel cells, and the logistics and handling issues with diesel fuel are already sorted in pretty much any port on the planet, so with an AIP and new batteries... why would it need this new magnetic system?

    They could just as easily put a couple of the nuclear batteries they designed for space exploration for emergency power if needed...
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    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:21 am

    Permanent magnet electric motors are quieter, more efficient & smaller than equivalent power conventional electric motors, making them big enough for powering ships is a fairly recent thing -> a desirable generational upgrade.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:24 pm

    Will a new submarine wash away the disgrace of its predecessor
    Today's batteries r better, so even w/o the AIP it's not that bad.
    They may be back fitted with it later, as the Swedes done.

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