Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #9

Boshoed wrote:The explosion that hit the tail-rotor seemed to be quite large not what I would expect from a failure of an unguided rocket, and, it was an explosion, debris from a rocket would look a lot different I think.

Not really. An exploding rocket could rupture the canister and result in debris including one of more separated warheads. A warhead struck by the stabilizer blades and detonating would make an appreciable bang...

according to alsmadar news  there is  a new twist to the story..  


allegedly the defense ministry says it was an accident ,malfunction of a rocket.

According to the Russian Ministry of Defense, the helicopter’s third missile accidentally struck the aircraft’s tail during launch due to a technical error, causing the helicopter to plunge towards the ground.

So we will know in the near future for sure what really happened.
and investigation of the crash scene will reveal the facts. if any sign of manpad
or tow attack. or if indeed was a rocket accident.  The pilots bodies were rescue
already by Russia special forces.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/video-russian-helicopter-crashes-raid-isis-near-palmyra-two-pilots-dead/

If this story is confirmed , Russia will need to redesign the helicopter tail or improve the
security of the rockets and the position they launched.

Vann7, that's fully consistent with the video, so my money is on technical fault rather than any action by the snack-bar monkeys...

But just in the event that it was downed by American tow, can we atleast see American choppers getting downed by Iglas please Putin? This is an apparent back stabbing by US for supplying Isis with sophisticated systems. This calls for a tit for tat response and i hope to see it very soon. I think it would be fair to say that American blood needs to be spilled to balance the equilibrium in this incident.

I find it ridiculous Russia refuses to supply counter battery radars to SAA the way the US does to Ukraine. You see that mortar sitting there for minutes, could have been easily wiped out if SAA has counter battery radars to locate artillery. I swear to god it seems Putin wants this senseless war to drag on forever rather than end it by supplying counter battery radars to SAA.

https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/4s4xe1/video_from_alzenki_showing_clashes_on_the/

Veteran helicopter pilot Ryafagat Khabibulin, who died in battle in Syria’s Homs, was among Russia’s most decorated and renowned military pilots. He had taken part in multiple operations in the North Caucasus over the last 25 years.
Ryafagat Khabibulin (b. 1965) graduated from Air Force school in 1988 and was stationed in Poland with the 55th combat helicopter regiment, where he trained to replace helicopter pilots taking part in the Afghanistan campaign.

In February 1989, all Soviet troops were withdrawn from the country and Khabibulin continued to train with senior officers, as some 85 percent of the pilots in his unit had served missions in Afghanistan. They taught the younger pilots the tactics and tricks of warfare in the mountains.

In 1992, Khabibulin’s helicopter squadron was redeployed back to Russia, in the southern Krasnodar region.
In autumn 1992, pilots of the 55th squadron flew missions to curb the conflict in the North Caucasus between the Ingush and the Ossetians.

The squadron then took part in putting an end to the conflict between Georgia and Abkhazia. In 1993-1994, Ryafagat Khabibulin spent the whole148 days of the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict on missions.

During the 1994 campaign in Chechnya, Khabibulin's helicopter came under fire from militants. Ninety-seven bullet holes were later found in the aircraft's fuselage. Everybody onboard was killed except the pilot, who suffered a fragmentation wound to the face and had his right thigh shot through. Close to blacking out, in a cabin full of smoke and spilled fuel, Khabibulin managed to secure the aircraft. He spent the next eight months in hospital.
Despite serious injuries, Khabibulin stepped back into the ranks and continued service in Chechnya until 1996.

From Chechnya, Khabibulin returned to Abkhazia. He monitored the truce there, only to return to Chechnya in 1999, when Chechen militants led by Shamil Basaev attacked nearby Dagestan, thus beginning the second Chechen campaign.

By that time he was one of the most experienced military helicopter pilots in Russia. After the active phase of the operations was over, Lieutenant-Colonel Ryafagat Khabibulin was regularly deployed to Chechnya where his squadron operated from the Khankala airfield.
When Georgia attacked South Ossetia in August 2008, Khabibulin went on sorties in the Ossetian Mountains. During one, his helicopter evacuated 12 wounded soldiers from the battlefield.

In his numerous rescue missions, many of them in extreme weather conditions or under fire, Khabibulin saved the lives of at least 40 wounded soldiers. He received numerous commendations for his skill.

His last assignment Ryafagat Khabibulin came this spring, when he was deployed to Syria as pilot-instructor.

Lieutenant-Colonel Ryafagat Khabibulin and weapons system operator Evgeny Dolgin died in combat in the Syrian province of Homs on July 8, when their Mi-25, after having fired on a group of advancing Islamic State militants, was hit with a missile in their tail and crashed to the ground.
Later, the Defense Ministry announced: "The skillful actions of the helicopter pilots pushed back the terrorist attack and thwarted their effort to pierce through the Syrian Army defenses" in the area.

Ryafagat Khabibulin and Evgeny Dolgin are now to be posthumously decorated with top state awards.

Big_Gazza wrote:Vann7, that's fully consistent with the video, so my money is on technical fault rather than any action by the snack-bar monkeys...

regardless of what it was... the death is still consequence of American sponsored terrorism in Syria. Because had Americans did not promoted the war , and not backing ISIS and ALqaeda in Syria to overthrow Assad, then Russia will have no need to be there in a war.

So directly or indirectly ,any Russian killed in Syria is consequence of Americans proxy war again
Russia and Syria there.

Clearly a misfire, so I wonder why all the false statements and misreporting? I must admit to disappointment that official sources seem to be being less than truthful about the circumstances of this loss.

Lets console ourselves with turning more Wahabbi snack-bar monkey-men into steaming heaps of fertiliser and undoing all of the evil plans of the god-damned Uh'murikkkans and their medieval Turk-Saudi inbreds.

Well lets be fair, the officials probably only had information from friendly forces in the area and depending upon what they saw and reported you could get all sorts of different stories going around... I doubt the crew itself knew what actually happened...

Russia publishes book on role of Russian-made weapons in Syrian conflict

It is the first comprehensive assessment and analysis of possible changes to the global arms market caused by the performance of Russian armaments in Syria

MOSCOW, July 11. /TASS-DEFENSE/. The STATUS Company has published a book titled “Russian Weapons in Syrian Conflict”. The book’s editor, Prof. Valery Polovinkin, PhD, Honored Scientist of the Russian Federation, told TASS that it the first analysis of the employment of Russian arms in Syria. The book offers information about the latest and upgraded Russian-made materiel proven in combat in the Syrian theater of operations since September 30, 2015.

"The book is the first comprehensive assessment of the effectiveness of up-to-date Russian-made weapons in a real war under the harsh climatic conditions and the first analysis of possible changes to the global arms market, caused by the performance of Russian armament in Syria," the scientist said.

According to him, the latest Russian materiel the military is transitioning to should be fit for use in various climes around the world.

"We realize full well that combat-proven weapons enjoy a higher demand on the international arms market than the ones lacking a combat record do. Everybody wants reliable hardware tested in battle, because they usually pay a lot of money for it," Valery Polovinkin stressed.

"Previously, Russian arms usually lagged behind US ones in this respect. As is known, the United States fights on all continents and its weapons are always tested in battle. Now, Russia has the same opportunity owing to the friendly policies of Syria’s leadership," the scientist noted.

"We have tested all of our advanced weapons and demonstrated their capabilities to the whole of the world. This is especially important because many of the current and potential customers for our military gear are situated the same climatic zone or in the ones similar enough," he emphasized.

The book comprising six chapters provides detailed analysis of the Syrian operation of the Russian Aerospace Force, Navy and Army. Of special interest is the chapter covering Western military experts’ analysis of Russian weapons. The global arms market situation preceding Russia’s joining the Syrian conflict has been analyzed and a market assessment has been made based on the combat record of Russian arms in Syria.

All information in the book is complemented with tables, graphs, charts and 200 color photographs courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry and TASS Russian News Agency.

STATUS Director General Andrei Shansherov told TASS that Russian Weapons in Syrian Conflict has been published both in Russian and in English.


More:
http://tass.ru/en/defense/887510

Six Russian Tu-22M3 bombers destroyed the camp and three warehouses militants in Syria

Подробнее на ТАСС:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/politika/3448703&usg=ALkJrhjoNcY8YimJJcb51a1yKH7echhakw

Why not supply some counter battery radars to SAA? Modern wars cannot be won without counter battery radars. If you don't know where enemy artillery is, don't even think about winning.

George1 wrote:Six Russian Tu-22M3 bombers destroyed the camp and three warehouses militants in Syria

Подробнее на ТАСС:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/politika/3448703&usg=ALkJrhjoNcY8YimJJcb51a1yKH7echhakw

3 tanks, 3 alleged ammunition depots, 8 pickup trucks, a field camp, and 4 BMP’s, i would have thought that this was a bit over kill, 6 Tu-22M3 dropping a shit load of bombs just to destroy a few vehicles and a camp and a few ammo depots. The pick up trucks, BMP'S and tanks could have easily been destroyed by Mi-28 or Su-25 so why use Tu-22M3 to destroy such targets. This is over kill and yes it shows what kind of fire power the Russians have at there finger tips but ISIS dont really care about that.

d_taddei2 wrote:

George1 wrote:Six Russian Tu-22M3 bombers destroyed the camp and three warehouses militants in Syria

Подробнее на ТАСС:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/politika/3448703&usg=ALkJrhjoNcY8YimJJcb51a1yKH7echhakw

3 tanks, 3 alleged ammunition depots, 8 pickup trucks, a field camp, and 4 BMP’s, i would have thought that this was a bit over kill, 6 Tu-22M3 dropping a shit load of bombs just to destroy a few vehicles and a camp and a few ammo depots. The pick up trucks, BMP'S and tanks could have easily been destroyed by Mi-28 or Su-25 so why use Tu-22M3 to destroy such targets. This is over kill and yes it shows what kind of fire power the Russians have at there finger tips but ISIS dont really care about that.

After many months this was a sign of a more active role of Russia again. A test to see what happens. Also, such an attack has a very different moral effect which can be controlled even by SA-16 than one or two helicopters.

GarryB wrote:Well lets be fair, the officials probably only had information from friendly forces in the area and depending upon what they saw and reported you could get all sorts of different stories going around... I doubt the crew itself knew what actually happened...

There is speculation that this was a friendly fire incident...Wingman got in front of second Crocodile which was firing, FFAR might have hit the tail sending the wingman in uncontrolled spin.

If true, very very sad incident.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
There is speculation that this was a friendly fire incident...Wingman got in front of second Crocodile which was firing, FFAR might have hit the tail sending the wingman in uncontrolled spin.

If true, very very sad incident.

And poor coordination between wingmen, the shootdown helicopter seems to follow a straight path....

KoTeMoRe wrote:

GarryB wrote:Well lets be fair, the officials probably only had information from friendly forces in the area and depending upon what they saw and reported you could get all sorts of different stories going around... I doubt the crew itself knew what actually happened...

There is speculation that this was a friendly fire incident...Wingman got in front of second Crocodile which was firing, FFAR might have hit the tail sending the wingman in uncontrolled spin.

If true, very very sad incident.

I've heard from person who is Mi-8 pilot that Russian doctrine suggests if flying in pairs that second helly gunner and pilot would be scanning for threats and targets and only the first one up front would engage it till it does a turn and switches with his colleague. Still doctrines are not always followed so You could be right. Isis and tow sounds like bullshit

Regular wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

GarryB wrote:Well lets be fair, the officials probably only had information from friendly forces in the area and depending upon what they saw and reported you could get all sorts of different stories going around... I doubt the crew itself knew what actually happened...

There is speculation that this was a friendly fire incident...Wingman got in front of second Crocodile which was firing, FFAR might have hit the tail sending the wingman in uncontrolled spin.

If true, very very sad incident.

I've heard from person who is Mi-8 pilot that Russian doctrine suggests if flying in pairs that second helly gunner and pilot would be scanning for threats and targets and only the first one up front would engage it till it does a turn and switches with his colleague. Still doctrines are not always followed so You could be right. Isis and tow sounds like bullshit

IR missile that we have seen until now have always hit the center mass (heat source), there's the infamous Mil Mi 8 that takes a Strela and still flies. The impact detonation and some pictures in internet make it look like fragments have hit the choper, which could indicate a HE-Frag rocket.

Still very unusual path for a ManPads.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Regular wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

GarryB wrote:Well lets be fair, the officials probably only had information from friendly forces in the area and depending upon what they saw and reported you could get all sorts of different stories going around... I doubt the crew itself knew what actually happened...

There is speculation that this was a friendly fire incident...Wingman got in front of second Crocodile which was firing, FFAR might have hit the tail sending the wingman in uncontrolled spin.

If true, very very sad incident.

I've heard from person who is Mi-8 pilot that Russian doctrine suggests if flying in pairs that second helly gunner and pilot would be scanning for threats and targets and only the first one up front would engage it till it does a turn and switches with his colleague. Still doctrines are not always followed so You could be right. Isis and tow sounds like bullshit

IR missile that we have seen until now have always hit the center mass (heat source), there's the infamous Mil Mi 8 that takes a Strela and still flies. The impact detonation and some pictures in internet make it look like fragments have hit the choper, which could indicate a HE-Frag rocket.

Still very unusual path for a ManPads.

Recent incident btw PKK and a Turkish Cobra suggests that a MANPAD can hit the tail rotor section. In that particular case, the entire rear end was blown off. Personally, I don't know why that happens since the missile IR seeker should (theoretically) be homing in on the turbine exhaust typically located underneath and slightly behind the main rotor (unless there is some algorithm which offsets the missile impact point from the exhaust).

Acheron wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Regular wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

GarryB wrote:Well lets be fair, the officials probably only had information from friendly forces in the area and depending upon what they saw and reported you could get all sorts of different stories going around... I doubt the crew itself knew what actually happened...

There is speculation that this was a friendly fire incident...Wingman got in front of second Crocodile which was firing, FFAR might have hit the tail sending the wingman in uncontrolled spin.

If true, very very sad incident.

I've heard from person who is Mi-8 pilot that Russian doctrine suggests if flying in pairs that second helly gunner and pilot would be scanning for threats and targets and only the first one up front would engage it till it does a turn and switches with his colleague. Still doctrines are not always followed so You could be right. Isis and tow sounds like bullshit

IR missile that we have seen until now have always hit the center mass (heat source), there's the infamous Mil Mi 8 that takes a Strela and still flies. The impact detonation and some pictures in internet make it look like fragments have hit the choper, which could indicate a HE-Frag rocket.

Still very unusual path for a ManPads.

Recent incident btw PKK and a Turkish Cobra suggests that a MANPAD can hit the tail rotor section. In that particular case, the entire rear end was blown off. Personally, I don't know why that happens since the missile IR seeker should (theoretically) be homing in on the turbine exhaust typically located underneath and slightly behind the main rotor (unless there is some algorithm which offsets the missile impact point from the exhaust).

I have read many articles about this particular incident, and although it is by no means 100% certainty, as the conditions of the accident make it hard to determine 100% the facts. But in my opinion this is a friendly fire incident. Also, i do believe that is might very well have been a Russian Mi-35M being downed, and not a Syrian Mi-25. Unless somebody can post me a serial number or other clear evidence that i missed and proves me wrong. Now let me explain below why i have come to this sad conclusion.

Firstly : i believe it was a friendly fire accident because the impact looks much like that of a HE-FRAG rocket, and because unlike what the MoD has been telling, both helicopters in the video are clearly still preforming attacking runs rather than heading back to base for reloading. There is a smoke trail leading up to the tail section which very much resembles that of a rocket. You can see in the video the helicopters appear to have fixed landing gear, like that on the Russian Mi-35. The Mi-25 would under normal circumstances be flown with retracted gear as far as i know. There is no way of telling 100% sure in the blurred video, but this is my gut feeling.

Looking back at footage of the Ka-52 attack runs on Palmyra, we can clearly see that there are quite a bit of the fired rockets flying off target, some even appear to be flying off in the air. The smoke trails are all over the place. I remember thinking when i saw this footage for the first time that this would be very dangerous for friendly personnel on the ground nearby, or helicopters flying in front preparing to break off the attack. I think a "rogue rocket" from the second helicopter hit the tail rotor, which is probably the number one weak spot in a conventional helicopter layout, causing it to suffer catastrophic damage and send the gunship spiraling out of control.

Also, i understand why the MoD would claim this was caused by a ToW missile provided by the CIA, in fact it might very will have been. But i seriously doubt the ISIS operators in that area lack the skill to hit a gunship at attack speeds with it. I also dont buy into the "Starstreak  smokeless missile theory".  I think the MoD in this case does not want to admit that another one of its modern gunship (after the Mi-28N crash earlier)  was lost due to possible operator error (and the use of ordinance which might have been overexposed to the elements or simply defunct). This might raise further questions about the level of training of the Russian helicopter crews. There has been no info on the crew of the second helicopter as far as i know. Perhaps the ultra high frequency of flying operations took its tole on the crew(s) causing them to make a slight judgement error and fly too close to each other?

There is a video out there of a Russian journalist visiting the crash site, where the entire wreck has been professionally disposed of using incendiary bombs. There is nothing left but ash, and crystallized remains.  Al tough this is a standard practice, i doubt they would have gone trough such troubles for a Syrian Mi-25 located in friendly territory, even if it was a new or freshly refurbished example. They would chuck in a few explosives and remove any subsystems, or even recover some of the remains for investigation. But this wreck clearly received a next level of clean up treatment (at least in my opinion).

Finally we have seen that at least some (if not all) of the Mi-35M gunships in Syria are equipped with the latest electro-optical countermeasures for MANPADS and also possibly against TOW missiles. Obviously it is not designed to counter a dumb rocket flying in from that particular direction and striking the tail boom by chance.

Perhaps i have not seen enough info on the subject and i will still change my mind about it, but this is at the moment my conclusion to this tragedy. I do not wish to offend anybody and if i am wrong about these things than i apologize for my ignorance, and will gladly rethink the subject. RIP to the crew who died, and respect for the other crews who operated that day. They are all great heroes regardless of what happened in that moment.

0nillie,I don't think (my personal assumption) that the electro-optical countermeasures will affect the TOW, remember they are wire guided, so, someone with enough skill can take down a helicopter with one.

Acheron wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Regular wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

GarryB wrote:Well lets be fair, the officials probably only had information from friendly forces in the area and depending upon what they saw and reported you could get all sorts of different stories going around... I doubt the crew itself knew what actually happened...

There is speculation that this was a friendly fire incident...Wingman got in front of second Crocodile which was firing, FFAR might have hit the tail sending the wingman in uncontrolled spin.

If true, very very sad incident.

I've heard from person who is Mi-8 pilot that Russian doctrine suggests if flying in pairs that second helly gunner and pilot would be scanning for threats and targets and only the first one up front would engage it till it does a turn and switches with his colleague. Still doctrines are not always followed so You could be right. Isis and tow sounds like bullshit

IR missile that we have seen until now have always hit the center mass (heat source), there's the infamous Mil Mi 8 that takes a Strela and still flies. The impact detonation and some pictures in internet make it look like fragments have hit the choper, which could indicate a HE-Frag rocket.

Still very unusual path for a ManPads.

Recent incident btw PKK and a Turkish Cobra suggests that a MANPAD can hit the tail rotor section. In that particular case, the entire rear end was blown off. Personally, I don't know why that happens since the missile IR seeker should (theoretically) be homing in on the turbine exhaust typically located underneath and slightly behind the main rotor (unless there is some algorithm which offsets the missile impact point from the exhaust).

The Supercobra was hit on the base of the tail. watch at 4:52.

In line with the way any ManPads would do (base of tail is the second most heated point of pressure in UH-1 derived helicopters, because the engines direct the exhausts at that point).



Watch the exhaust trail.



In a Mil mi 35 with the diffusers, the heat is sent up and central.



Without Side and central.



So basically either a superlucky shot, or the blades somehow dissipated the heat around the rotor which allowed a hit (?). Really hard to believe, but it has happened before...

New airstrikes by Tu-22M3 bombers

http://tass.ru/en/defense/888172

^

Locations
1.The first target N-E of Palmyra, in Mount Oubayrah(12 X OFAB-250-270).
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.746955&lon=38.466096&z=17&m=h

2. T-3 pumping station(4 Tu-22M3 full load)
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.527985&lon=38.746161&z=15&m=b

3. Arak Gas treatment facility also took a full load (12 X OFAB-250-270)
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.680026&lon=38.622329&z=17&m=b

4. T-3 airport's annexe also received its own Tu-22M3 full load
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.525643&lon=38.731881&z=17&m=b
https://twitter.com/green_lemonnn/with_replies