S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Arrow wrote:https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2019/12/05/12849368.shtml

The S-400 exceeded all Turkey's expectations!!!

I'm sure Turkey test them in ECM environment as well. We have to know, that S-400 in Turkey is export version for NATO member. It is for sure importantly different and downgraded, that it would not compromise Russian domestic S-400 even if US experts get hands on them. If this export one exceed all expectations, than we could only assume, what capabilities domestic one have. Integrated together with Pantsir-S1/S2, Pantsir-SM and S-350 it is a big headache for NATO planners.

New Tiksi anti-aircraft missile regiment and continued rearmament of the Air Defense Forces

A new anti-aircraft missile regiment of the 3rd Air Defense Division of the Northern Fleet is deployed in the village of Tiksi-3 (Yakutia). The regiment received the S-300PS anti-aircraft missile system

source https://yakutia.info/article/192609

The block-modular town under construction in Tiksi to accommodate units of the third air defense division of the Northern Fleet of the Russian Federation (Tiksi-3) Aisen Nikolaev visited the Head of Yakutia as part of a working trip to Bulunsky District. Recall that the construction of the block-modular town in Tiksi to accommodate units of the third air defense division of the 45th Army of the Northern Fleet was announced last December by Russian Minister of Defense Sergei Shoigu at the annual board of the military department. Today, construction is actively underway in the village, a hostel for military personnel with 100 seats has already been commissioned.



The next regimental set of S-400 was transferred to the air defense forces. Since 2007, 61 S-400 air defense missile divisions have entered the Armed Forces of Russia. With an export price of $ 500 million per division, the S-400 production program has become the most expensive among other weapons systems.

Air defense crews of the 568th anti-aircraft missile regiment of the Central Military District in the Samara Region will receive the S-400 Triumph anti-aircraft missile system next year. This was reported by the Okrug press service with reference to the commander of the 76th Air Defense Division, Major General Sergey Tikhonov.

“In 2020, we plan to rearm the air defense calculations in the Samara region with a new set of S-400 Triumph anti-aircraft missile systems,” Tikhonov said.

According to Tikhonov, in 2018-2019 the division was armed with modern radars and anti-aircraft installations: S-400 missile systems for the Saratov regiment, Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft missile and gun systems, Νebo-M, Nebo-U ”and others. He emphasized that this has increased the combat capabilities and range of the division.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3868856.html

The S-400 exceeded all Turkey's expectations!!!

Turkey was worried because on paper the S-400 is way better in every way than the Patriot... which was also much more expensive... to get the Patriot system to being almost as good as the S-400 you would have to buy both Patriot and THAAD and THAAD is even more expensive than Patriot and still not better than S-400 on its own or together with Patriot.

The point is that they thought the performance figures for S-400 might be exaggerated... it is nice to hear they weren't and that the actual system they received exceeded their specs... and of course the domestic model will be better...

No wonder Turkey keeps mentioning wanting to buy S-500...

medo wrote:

Arrow wrote:https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2019/12/05/12849368.shtml

The S-400 exceeded all Turkey's expectations!!!

I'm sure Turkey test them in ECM environment as well. We have to know, that S-400 in Turkey is export version for NATO member. It is for sure importantly different and downgraded, that it would not compromise Russian domestic S-400 even if US experts get hands on them. If this export one exceed all expectations, than we could only assume, what capabilities domestic one have. Integrated together with Pantsir-S1/S2, Pantsir-SM and S-350 it is a big headache for NATO planners.

For me the important thing is how stupid the Russians are w.r.t to arms sales.

The PAC-3 which Turkey was interested in was costlier (approx $3.5billion) which they couldn't get, and the Russians (STUPIDS!!!) sold the S-400, a system which is far better than PAC-3 and to a customer (loyalty-suspect) who had no other option at a lower price of approx $2.5billion.

Atleast Russia could have sold the S-400 at $3.5billion and invested the huge profit of more than $1billion on Russia's own needs for additional S-400 OR other military hardware OR on R&D in other areas like fast tracking Marine gas turbines & diesel engine, AIP etc.

They lower the price to seal the deal and to help insure that the Turk have a good reason to push back against any US pressure.

A billion USD less is a cheap price to pay to set the Turks against the Muricans. This will do IMMENSE damage to US-Turk relations and any source of friction within the HATOstani Hegemony is a good thing!

Some new details from test of the C-400E system in Turkey : the F-16s that, according to some bright minds (mostly at F-16.net ) would have been detected thanks to its relatively low RCS at about 200/240 km by C-400 radar was instead detected practically at the very outher boundary of that radar footprint , about 600 km, by the export version of the system.


http://avia.pro/news/turciya-raskryla-rezultaty-ispytaniy-s-400-triumf-obnaruzhil-istrebitel-f-16-za-600-kilometrov?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

About the reasons, as i had highlighted some times ago, for which the Federation had no problems at all at leave its C-400E "confront" the F-35 while US authorities gone mad at the same idea; too many hundreds of USD billions at stakes.....theirs ones.....to remain polite

Mindstorm wrote:

Some new details from test of the C-400E system in Turkey : the F-16s that, according to some bright minds (mostly at F-16.net ) would have been detected thanks to its relatively low RCS at about 200/240 km by C-400 radar was instead detected practically at the very outher boundary of that radar footprint , about 600 km, by the export version of the system.


http://avia.pro/news/turciya-raskryla-rezultaty-ispytaniy-s-400-triumf-obnaruzhil-istrebitel-f-16-za-600-kilometrov?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

About the reasons, as i had highlighted some times ago, for which the Federation had no problems at all at leave its C-400E "confront" the F-35 while US authorities gone mad at the same idea; too many hundreds of USD billions at stakes.....theirs ones.....to remain polite  

Serious research went into the design of these systems and not garage dabbling so much beloved in the USA. Hard core analysis of physics problems beats
nose picking improv from amateurs always. The clowns running the USA still have not grasped the fact that if you dumb down your proles by making the
education system (including the private one) into a joke, you will pay a price.

Not saying that I don't trust Russian sources most of the time. But can we have a source from a Turkish news source instead of a Russian one to confirm this by any chance?

thegopnik wrote:Not saying that I don't trust Russian sources most of the time. But can we have a source from a Turkish news source instead of a Russian one to confirm this by any chance?

There's been plenty of Turkish news papers that reported that the S-400E has performed better than they expected, almost suggesting they perform better than advertised.

Some new details from test of the C-400E system in Turkey : the F-16s that, according to some bright minds (mostly at F-16.net ) would have been detected thanks to its relatively low RCS at about 200/240 km by C-400 radar was instead detected practically at the very outher boundary of that radar footprint , about 600 km, by the export version of the system.

Nothing surprising. Even the Irbis E whoch has an antenna of less than 1m and 20kW peak power can see at around 300km such fighters. S-400 has an antenna 10 times bigger and much more output power.

dino00 wrote:Serial deliveries in 2025 no comments, if this is true fuck all this shit.

Why exactly is this a surprise for you?

For comparison:

• T-14 has been produced since 2015, though there hasn't been real serial deliveries. It will likely start getting deployed in 2025-2030.
  
• Su-57 has been produced since around 2010 and will unlikely see real serial deliveries until 2024 or even later.
  
• S-400 system started testing in 1999, though was only deployed in 2007.
  
• Pantsir-S1 finished development in 1995, started production in 2008 and was only deployed to the troops in 2012.
  

S-500 production only started in 2019. Serial deliveries to the aerospace defense forces are not going to start before it is fully tested.

I believe the planned deadline of 2025 is quite ambitious, to be honest as such a system (mobile anti-ICBM air defense) has never been deployed before. Another quite obvious problem is the fact that many of these new systems will become available at mostly the same time, in which case the Russian military would have to either increase their budget, or prolong the procurement of such systems to a wider time-frame.

Probably not working to expectations so they are prolonging potential delivery date of production models.

Or it may come out sooner. I trust the defence minister over deputy defence minister imo. Who knows.

We have zero information about the timelines of the missiles it will be using. It cannot be assumed that everything is ready now
and so any "delay" is a fail. The Su-57 is not a fail simply because it doesn't have the final model of the engine it is supposed
to be equipped with. It makes an infinite amount of sense to deploy systems into the real world in stages allowing for natural
debugging. Cramming the development into one "final release" is merely a choice, not a necessity and puts all the eggs in
one basket. Given the pattern of Russian missile development over the last 30 years, it is an ongoing process and not tied
to particular projects like the S-400 and S-500. So the missile characteristics are actually driving the design choices of
their launchers.

For all we know we may get an S-600 system before 2030 based on missile design advances.

kvs wrote:We have zero information about the timelines of the missiles it will be using.   It cannot be assumed that everything is ready now
and so any "delay" is a fail.   The Su-57 is not a fail simply because it doesn't have the final model of the engine it is supposed
to be equipped with.   It makes an infinite amount of sense to deploy systems into the real world in stages allowing for natural
debugging.   Cramming the development into one "final release" is merely a choice, not a necessity and puts all the eggs in
one basket.   Given the pattern of Russian missile development over the last 30 years, it is an ongoing process and not tied
to particular projects like the S-400 and S-500.   So the missile characteristics are actually driving the design choices of
their launchers.

For all we know we may get an S-600 system before 2030 based on missile design advances.

There seems to also be a split in information. There is Nudol and then there is S-500. I presume that with S-400 popularity and modularity and the fact that the 46N6 missile isn't in use and the other long range one (48N6) has ranges close to what 46N6 from tests mentioned in the past.

There is a possibility that Nudol is taking priority over S-500 as Nudol also somewhat fills the roll of the S-500 does a bit (anti Ballistic missile and anti satellite). So it would fit in the layered system.

Timelines are given randomly at the start of any project. Even more when it is a totally new one.

When it is the state that finance the project being late means being able to ask for more money.

Plans are estimates... and estimates are commonly wrong.

To be honest the S-500 is a top tier system that is largely used to shoot down ICBM warheads and SLBM warheads.

I suspect the top model S-400 missiles can already shoot down SLBM warheads and anything less than an ICBM warhead... it can deal with targets moving at almost 5km/s for goodness sake...

They will also be working hard to develop a naval version of the missile and will currently likely be working to integrate the missile into the UKSK-M launch system... if they said that wasn't going to be ready before 2025 who would care because they wont have cruisers or CVNs that would carry it in service before then anyway.

It will take as long as it takes... take solace in the fact that the US equivalent wont be ready until... whoops... there isn't a US equivalent mobile ABM system... the closest equivalent is a naval system...

In terms of effect on an actual battlefield, Sosna, and Verba and Igla and Pantsir and TOR and BUK and S-350 and S-400 and S-300V4 will be rather more significant and effective.

Could also be that in this testing phase they equip 2 - 3 regiments with the system and declare it operational in 2025. Just as example, in the interview the General mentioned the Onyx system "which tests have now been completed". There are a lot of ships/coastal defence units equipped with this missile.

Yes, regarding the Onyx, I was amused to hear him say a missile that has been in service for over a decade is now in service, but I suspect he is referring to a new model with the new fuel with mach 5 plus speed that they have been talking about.

Then he would have said a new version of Onyx. It is a good example how much western and russian weapons development differs. In Russia it is fairly common for a weapon system to be "used by the troops" withput being officially in service, which requires a lot of documents to be signed and so on. In the end the defence Minister or even the president has to sign an order to put something "into service".

Or maybe was he talking about ship launched Oniks which isn't really deployed on many ships. All the launches we saw were from Bastion. UKSK was used mostly with lacm kalibr.

There were tests not long ago on last Gorshkov class ship with oniks.

Then he would have said a new version of Onyx.

Would he?

Just read a report about a brand new silent rifle that is entering service, which got me quite excited till I looked at the photo and saw that it was an updated AS suppressed assault rifle in 9x39mm calibre that has been in service since the late 1980s... they don't always differentiate upgraded models with new models...

Or maybe was he talking about ship launched Oniks which isn't really deployed on many ships.

Before they were launching land attack missiles at targets in Syria, the Onyx was the main anti ship missile for the UKSK launchers... its export variants... Yakhont and Brahmos also being deployed overseas too. The main supersonic anti ship model Kalibre took a while to get working right...

There were tests not long ago on last Gorshkov class ship with oniks.

The speeds described suggest upgraded onyx...

MIRV warhead with SLBM fly the same as MIRV with ICBM over 6 km / s.

Speed is determined by distance flown and also radically effected by flight time inside the atmosphere, where most slow down very rapidly.

Think of your hand moving through water... the harder and faster you move your hand the harder the water pushes back... now imagine moving your hand down at high speed through air onto a surface of water.... think of that slap when it hits the water... that is what happens to objects in space entering the atmosphere....

A depressed trajectory flight of an SLBM at a target that is not 6,000km away wont be travelling at the same speed as a normal trajectory launch to targets more than 6,000km away.

The addition of the S-500 to Russian air defence units will likely improve the detection and tracking capabilities and allow more difficult targets to be engaged.

It likely wont be that long before scramjet powered SAMs are developed as it is easier to make a scramjet powered missile travel long distances at high speed than one powered by rocket motor.

The S-400 is not able to capture such targets.

Says whom?

The 4.8km/s target speed limit is for the export model of the S-400 and Turkey has already confirmed in its testing that the system they have exceeds the performances stated...

Only 53T6M can capture some RV from SLBM / SLBM.

The Soviets and Russians had a range of ABM systems in service for quite some time... and they are adding to this capacity all the time.