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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:31 am

    Confirmation that the Pr. 22350 is not 4500T.

    From the shipyard (Severnaya) press release:

    http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/1917901.html

    Основные характеристики проекта 22350:
    · Водоизмещение - 5000 тонн
    · Длина –135 м
    · Ширина – 16 м
    · Скорость – до 29 узлов
    · Дальность плавания - 4500 миль
    · Автономность – 30 суток
    · Экипаж – 180-210 человек

    Translation:

    Main specifications of project 22350
    Displacement: 5000 T
    Length: 135 m
    Width : 16 m
    Speed : up to 29 knots
    Range : 4500 nautical miles
    Autonomy ; 30 days
    Crew : 180 - 210 people
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:58 am

    Considering that it took more than half a decade to launch the first Yasen-M and the improved borei hasn't been completed yet, can we expect extremely long buildtimes for the larger Gorshkov too? After all, so much more novel stuff will need to be tested. Will the super gorshkov benefit from the experience of lessening of the build time of the first Gorshkov or will it have to go through the blunders of being a completely new design just as the improved subs?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:13 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Considering that it took more than half a decade to launch the first Yasen-M and the improved borei hasn't been completed yet, can we expect extremely long buildtimes for the larger Gorshkov too? After all, so much more novel stuff will need to be tested. Will the super gorshkov benefit from the experience of lessening of the build time of the first Gorshkov or will it have to go through the blunders of being a completely new design just as the improved subs?

    I don't think so. Ship will be larger but they will not be adding any new weapons, just more of the already existing ones.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Considering that it took more than half a decade to launch the first Yasen-M and the improved borei hasn't been completed yet, can we expect extremely long buildtimes for the larger Gorshkov too? After all, so much more novel stuff will need to be tested. Will the super gorshkov benefit from the experience of lessening of the build time of the first Gorshkov or will it have to go through the blunders of being a completely new design just as the improved subs?

    I don't think so. Ship will be larger but they will not be adding any new weapons, just more of the already existing ones.

    The Yasen-M and 955As also did not have new systems, yet they have been in construction for almost a decade.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:31 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:....

    I don't think so. Ship will be larger but they will not be adding any new weapons, just more of the already existing ones.

    The Yasen-M and 955As also did not have  new systems, yet they have been in construction for almost a decade.

    Excuse me? Suspect

    955A is completely upgraded ship and Yasen-M is so redesigned that it might as well be called new class.

    Super Gorshkov will be elongated in order to accommodate more vertical launchers and that is pretty much it.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:35 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:....

    I don't think so. Ship will be larger but they will not be adding any new weapons, just more of the already existing ones.

    The Yasen-M and 955As also did not have  new systems, yet they have been in construction for almost a decade.

    Excuse me? Suspect

    955A is completely upgraded ship and Yasen-M is so redesigned that it might as well be called new class.

    Super Gorshkov will be elongated in order to accommodate more vertical launchers and that is pretty much it.

    What completely new upgrades? Doesn't the 955A just have more Bulavas, and the Yasen-M more UKSKs?

    Anyway if you're right, thats good news.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:57 am

    Confirmation that the Pr. 22350 is not 4500T.
    Not really a surprise, still tiny relative to most ships being built for other navies.
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    Benya

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Benya on Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:43 pm

    Russian Navy Next Generation Frigates to be Based on Project 22350 Gorshkov-class

    The next generation frigates with increased displacement and reinforced armament suite will be based on the Project 22350 frigates, the President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) Alexey Rakhmanov told TASS. Russia`s Minister of Defense, General of the Army Sergei Shoigu said previously that the Project 22350 frigates would form the Russian Navy`s backbone.


    The Admiral Gorshkov frigate is the lead vessel of Project 22350

    "She [the frigate] will be evolving in a drastic manner. The ship will be bigger that the Project 22350 [frigates]. She will feature a more powerful armament suite and an increased effectiveness," Rakhmanov said commenting the statement by the Minister.

    "The armament suite will be reinforced certainly. Regarding the displacement, we will have to change her dimensions to incorporate a heavier armament suite and the frigate may become bigger," the head of the USC added. However, the new ship would remain a frigate not transforming into a destroyer, he pointed out.

    The research and development works on the upgrade of the Project 22350 are underway, according to Rakhmanov.

    The third Project 22350 frigate, 'Admiral Golovko', is planned to be launched in 2017. "The 'Admiral Golovko' ship will be launched this year to all appearance. The deliveries of its main instruments and components are supposed to be started since mid-2017. Therefore, we are planning to catch up the shifted schedules," the President of the Corporation said.

    He reminded that the 'Admiral Gorshkov' ship had started the final stage of the state trials. Rakhmanov expressed the hope that they would finish in Summer and the St Andrew`s flag-raising ceremony would take place.

    "She will become the newest naval combatant, only once her main complexes and systems are in good working order meeting the original terms of reference," he pointed out. The Navy is planning to get the second Project 22350 frigate, 'Admiral Kasatonov', in 2018.

    Previously, Russia`s Vice Premier Dmitry Rogozin said that the new state armament program through 2025 would focus on the building of the corvettes and frigates armed with guided weapons.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/june-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5269-russian-navy-next-generation-frigates-to-be-based-on-project-22350-gorshkov-class.html



    Actually, a new destroyer class could be based on the Gorshkovs, which would be both great and effective.
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    zg18

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  zg18 on Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:27 pm

    "Gorshkov", Baltysk, June 14th





    "Admiral Kasatonov"

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    George1

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:24 pm

    Russian Navy to get four frigates by 2020

    The Project 22350 lead frigate Admiral Gorshkov is currently undergoing state trials

    ST. PETERSBURG, June 26. /TASS/. Four Project 22350 frigates are planned for their transfer to the Russian Navy by 2020, Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Vladimir Korolyov said on Monday.

    "The [Project 22350] lead frigate Admiral Gorshkov is undergoing state trials. The Navy’s Main Command displays an especially demanding and meticulous attitude to the lead warships of new projects and in this regard we are closely interacting with the industry. A series of Project 22350 frigates, four hulls, are planned to be built by 2020," he said.

    Russian Navy Shipbuilding Chief Vladimir Tryapichnikov earlier said that the transfer of four Project 22350 warships was planned until 2025, after which the project would be modernized.

    Navy Commander-in-Chief Korolyov also said that two Project 11356 frigates - the Admiral Grigorovich and the Admiral Essen - and the third warship of the series (the Admiral Makarov) were undergoing state trials and will be demonstrated to participants in the St. Petersburg International Maritime Defense Show that would be held on June 28 - July 2.

    "As was stipulated by the shipbuilding program, we are smoothly switching over to the construction of large-displacement combat ships. In the coming days, the Northern Wharf Shipyard in Petersburg will float out the new Project 20385 corvette Gremyashchiy fitted out with precision weapons and Russian-made engines," the Navy chief said.

    Project 22350 warships have a displacement of 4,500 tonnes and can develop a speed of 29 knots. They are armed with Oniks and Kalibr cruise missiles and the Poliment-Redut air defense missile system.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/953377


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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:44 pm

    Now they're saying 22350M will be 8,000 ton.

    Thats a whole heap more ship than Gorshkov, so what do we think they might manage with that extra displacement?

    Enough for a doubling of the current missile load? 64* Redut + 32* UKSK, upgrade from Palma to Pantsir-M, 2* helos.
    Stick it all in a bow stretch or a 2nd 32* cell Redut section ahead of the hangar?

    Maybe just a bump to 48* Redut + 24* UKSK + Pantsir-M? Would presumably allow better speed/range/habitability.
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    Rodion_Romanovic

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:30 pm

    hoom wrote:Now they're saying 22350M will be 8,000 ton.

    Thats a whole heap more ship than Gorshkov, so what do we think they might manage with that extra displacement?

    Enough for a doubling of the current missile load? 64* Redut + 32* UKSK, upgrade from Palma to Pantsir-M, 2* helos.
    Stick it all in a bow stretch or a 2nd 32* cell Redut section ahead of the hangar?

    Maybe just a bump to 48* Redut + 24* UKSK + Pantsir-M? Would presumably allow better speed/range/habitability.

    http://mil.today/2017/Weapons59/

    Here another link
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:07 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:......

    http://mil.today/2017/Weapons59/

    Here another link

    ....According to him, the Russian Navy currently needs ten ships of this type.

    Speaking about the builders for the newest frigates, Viktor Bursuk assumed that the production most likely would be divided between the Far East and the North West. He also allowed for Yantar Shipyard (Kaliningrad, Russia) to join the program. .....


    Best thing I heard lately. If you want to build a ship class you need more than one shipyard to do it.

    Just look at Karakurts, three shipyards​ on the job. No production delays there.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:40 pm

    No production delays there.
    Yet.
    Pretty sure Gorshkov was in the water pretty quickly.
    But I think (hope) they have learned that lesson.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:48 pm

    hoom wrote:
    No production delays there.
    Yet.
    Pretty sure Gorshkov was in the water pretty quickly.
    But I think (hope) they have learned that lesson.

    I know, but that was development delay.

    There are always issues with the first ship but had they built them in several places from the get go they would have had just couple of months delay between delivering rest of the ships instead of couple of years like they have now.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:50 am

    A vid of Gorshkov I think on the way out to another round of tests

    And heaps of pics http://bastion-karpenko.ru/22350-gorshkov-170701/





    SLB

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SLB on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:37 pm

    Now that it is becoming clear that project 22350M will be the size of a project 1155, it could be that the Leader destroyer
    will just be an anti-air/anti-missile warfare optimized variant of the 22350M, trading, for example, an helicopter (out of
    supposedly two) and one or two UKSK (out of 3 or 4), for S-400 or S-500 VLS (besides those it would already have) and their guidance radars.
    Kind of the capability of a project 1164...

    Austin

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:15 pm

    Improved Variant of Russian Project 22350 Frigates Could Operate as Destroyers



    Scale model of an improved Project 22350 frigate on display during IMDS 2017. Note the increased number of VLS cells, just in front of the bridge and in front of the helicopter hangar. It also features the new generation integrated mast of the same family as the one fitted aboard the new Project 20385 corvette. Picture by Curious via Forums.airbase.ru.

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:24 pm

    /\ /\

    That model is not a scaled up Pr.22350
    It is at least twice as big as a Pr.22350. More like a cruiser.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:57 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:/\  /\

    That model is not a scaled up Pr.22350
    It is at least twice as big as a Pr.22350. More like a cruiser.

    Well they did say that new ones will have twice the weight of old ones
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:37 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:/\  /\

    That model is not a scaled up Pr.22350
    It is at least twice as big as a Pr.22350. More like a cruiser.

    Well they did say that new ones will have twice the weight of old ones

    First they said it the super-G will be 1500T more.
    More recently, they said that super-G will be an 8000T ship.

    That model is more the size of a 12000T Slava class cruiser, perhaps even bigger.

    Austin

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:44 pm

    You cant just see the model and figure out the tonnage , It depends on what scale the model is built.

    Indeed they mentioned at IMDS at SG will be 8000 Tons and that Navy needs 10 ships of SG types

    http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F23/
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:33 pm

    It's not just an increase of the Gorshkov. It's an all new ship. Just the VLS at mid-ship are higher than the ones in front so we can assume it's S-300FM/400F class family missile, so new radar for guiding them.

    Hope that the mast is better than the one for corvette size ship. It was marketed with 200km range against fighter IIRC, most western surveillance radars have 400+km range, even older soviet radars do better.

    http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/radiolocation-radio-electronic-systems-and-complexes/radar-with-rotating-l-band-active-phased-array

    I've posted this link in the Lider thread some times ago and said it would be a good capability for liders. Looks like they chosed to fit this on the super gorshkov. It seems to have the same dimensions and it's a rotating radar as said in the article and as seen on the picture.

    It would be a very good ship as it has the stealth design of the gorshkov, the power of slava (and more) and state of art electronics. Moreover they look like they are going to fit it with just already used and tested systems and weapons so they will no need much time to test them and to correct bugs and won't have lot of issues like we have seen with Gorshkov first ship or Redut problems or Shtill problems as they are already solved.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:37 pm

    Austin wrote:You cant just see the model and figure out the tonnage , It depends on what scale the model is built.

    You can if you have a reference item.

    An example of a reference item in this case is the main gun. It is the same gun found on the Gorshkov, yet it looks so tiny on this model.
    The more I look at this model the more I am inclined to think that this ship is 10,000 to 15,000 Ton class.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:45 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    Austin wrote:You cant just see the model and figure out the tonnage , It depends on what scale the model is built.

    You can if you have a reference item.

    An example of a reference item in this case is the main gun. It is the same gun found on the Gorshkov, yet it looks so tiny on this model.
    The more I look at this model the more I am inclined to think that this ship is 10,000 to 15,000 Ton class.

    If they said it will be 1500 T bigger and some months after it will be 8000 T it means that they didn't really start work on it as of now and this is just a model made quickly to have something to show.

    It looks like a nice ship but untill confirmation it's just a maket.

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