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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Peŕrier on Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:31 pm

    Military competence comes always before technical quality of the weapons.

    The Soviet officers' corp of the summer/autumn 1941 would have made the same wrong moves as you just support, i.e. do not retreat at full speed any time the germans accomplished local penetration of soviet lines, with the consequent disarray of the nearby troops and at last division and corps surrounded.

    It was only when the soviet officers resumed to a flexible defense that the germans lost the option to destroy large forces just moving around them and cutting them down from their logistical bases.

    Relying on the false sense of security given by superior tanks would have only leaded to the same defeats over and over.

    When Hitler decided to start Barbarossa in 1941, he made two mistakes, one easily foreseen the other not to be expected, both related to meteorological conditions.

    In 1941 spring was one of the most raining, forcing OKW to delay until late June the offensive to wait for fields and dirt roads to dry up, this way losing two months in the available timeframe before autumn rains would bog down again operations.

    Second, because the whole operation plan had as main focus the fall of the soviet regime within few months, there was in the plan itself an insane rush to conquer Moscow, both for the blow to Stalin's personal prestige and because Moscow was the key logistical hub before the Urals, and its fall would have forced the Red Army to retreat east of the Urals themselves leaving to the germans most of the soviet population, most of the infrastructure's network and most of the agricultural land. This forced the OKW to not stop the operations in late autumn, when time was actually reap for a tactical retreat and reorganization before the imminent winter.

    Instead as the cold freezed the soil enough to grant again movement to mechanized forces, they pushed forward exhausted forces that already had 5 months of fighting behind them, in an ever more rigid climate, until in full winter they were left with no option than to retreat nonetheless, only without any winter quartiers available.

    In the weeks after the offensive on Moscow was called off, the Wehrmacht lost more than 200.000 mens to illness and frostbites alone, without any need for enemy actions.

    Just around the amount of losses it would suffer one year later in the fall of Stalingrad's pocket.

    Having postponed Barbarossa to the following year, with a more dry Spring, would have granted around two months more of useful operations, and the battle for Moscow, an hopeless offensive anyway, would have been called off when winter was not still there giving time to arrange for the incoming winter and saving most of those 200.000 men, all experienced soldiers, NCO and officers.

    It's not the winter that defeated the germans, it was the STAVKA starting to operate both elastic defense operations and concentrating offensive thrust in a lesser number of key points instead to launch a multitude of small scale senseless offensive operations as they tried in the first months of war.

    But the timeline followed by the germans leaved them with no option but to try a desperate thrust to Moscow or admit their operational plan had failed, and specific climate's conditions of 1941 were very instrumental in forcing the germans in such a position.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:09 pm

    That just shows why you should be prepared to fight in all weather conditions.

    Just how many tanks do you think would be left in the Wermacht if they had to fight a force of vastly superior vehicles every step of the way.

    In the early part of world war 2 the Soviets mainly used old T-26s,BT-7s and T-28s as there were not enough T-34s and KV-1s.

    And my original point was that the west never takes opotunities to defeat its enemies in times of vaulnrability and would rather wait until they are facing a force they cannot defeat. Case in point the Nazis.

    Now can we get back to naval warfare

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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:47 am




    all new equipment, weapons & sensors,
    Palash is already tested
    UKSK is already tested
    Furke is already tested
    Zarya is operational
    A-130 is already fixed quickly and is a development of the old AK-130

    The only all new weapon exclusive to the Gorshkov for now is redut.


    I'd say the Gorshkov has actually been combat ready for the last 2 years, but due process must be observed.
    At least thats true. Then they should've sent it to launch cruise missiles in syria.

    while the Udaloys will be upgraded with UKSK and Uran launchers. I don't worry about them not being replaced.
    Only the Shaposhnikov as far as we know and there are no known plans to upgrade any more.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:41 pm


    Palash is already tested
    UKSK is already tested
    Furke is already tested
    Zarya is operational
    A-130 is already fixed quickly and is a development of the old AK-130

    The only all new weapon exclusive to the Gorshkov for now is redut.

    Yes, and when the Gorshkov was first laid down, all of these systems were new.  Fitting-out and integrating all of these new systems necessitated a lengthy program.  Redut is the last piece and has dragged on because of issues with the 120km missile version.

    Then they should've sent it to launch cruise missiles in syria.

    Contractually and legally near-impossible, and would probably need a Presidential decree. Why send the Gorshkov and delay her shakedown/troubleshooting when the Pr 11356 frigates and Pr 636 SSKs are available?

    while the Udaloys will be upgraded with UKSK and Uran launchers. I don't worry about them not being replaced.
    Only the Shaposhnikov as far as we know and there are no known plans to upgrade any more.

    AFAIK it was planned that a total of 5 Udaloys would be modernised.  Best source I have right now is Navy to modernise five Udaloys by 2022

    Five Project 1155 large anti-submarine warfare (ASW) destroyers (Udaloy-class) will be upgraded and modernized by 2022 as their radio-electronic warfare and life support systems are to be overhauled, Russian Navy spokesman Igor Dygalo told reporters.

    "By 2022 five big antisubmarine warships of project 1155 of the Northern and Pacific fleets will be refurbished and modernized at shipyards in the North and the Far East," he said. Dygalo said the ships "will undergo a major overhaul of their life support and radio-electronic warfare systems."

    In the summer of 2015 Admiral Viktor Chirkov who was Russian Navy commander-in-chief at the time said the big antisubmarine ships of project 1155 were included in the Navy modernization program and will receive modern missile complexes. He added the first warship will be rearmed with Onix and Caliber missiles in 2017. In 2016 Vice President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation for military construction Igor Ponomarev told TASS the shipyards have not received full tactical and technical assignments and the work "has not been launched in full volume".


    Subsequently, Shaposhnikov to receive Kalibres details the refit of the 1st upgraded unit and states:

    In January, it was reported that five Project 1155 large ASW ships of the Northern and Pacific fleets would be repaired and upgraded at the shipbuilding enterprises of North and Far East through 2022. A huge amount of work to update life support systems and radio-technical equipment of the ships will be fulfilled.

    Upgrading the Udaloys makes a lot of sense and will hugely enhance their combat capability for ASW and anti-surface, though lack of a potent medium range SAM will prevent them from being a true multi-purpose destroyer.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:57 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Palash is already tested
    UKSK is already tested
    Furke is already tested
    Zarya is operational
    A-130 is already fixed quickly and is a development of the old AK-130

    The only all new weapon exclusive to the Gorshkov for now is redut.

    Yes, and when the Gorshkov was first laid down, all of these systems were new.  Fitting-out and integrating all of these new systems necessitated a lengthy program.  Redut is the last piece and has dragged on because of issues with the 120km missile version.

    Then they should've sent it to launch cruise missiles in syria.

    Contractually and legally near-impossible, and would probably need a Presidential decree. Why send the Gorshkov and delay her shakedown/troubleshooting when the Pr 11356 frigates and Pr 636 SSKs are available?

    while the Udaloys will be upgraded with UKSK and Uran launchers. I don't worry about them not being replaced.
    Only the Shaposhnikov as far as we know and there are no known plans to upgrade any more.

    AFAIK it was planned that a total of 5 Udaloys would be modernised.  Best source I have right now is Navy to modernise five Udaloys by 2022

    Five Project 1155 large anti-submarine warfare (ASW) destroyers (Udaloy-class) will be upgraded and modernized by 2022 as their radio-electronic warfare and life support systems are to be overhauled, Russian Navy spokesman Igor Dygalo told reporters.

    "By 2022 five big antisubmarine warships of project 1155 of the Northern and Pacific fleets will be refurbished and modernized at shipyards in the North and the Far East," he said. Dygalo said the ships "will undergo a major overhaul of their life support and radio-electronic warfare systems."

    In the summer of 2015 Admiral Viktor Chirkov who was Russian Navy commander-in-chief at the time said the big antisubmarine ships of project 1155 were included in the Navy modernization program and will receive modern missile complexes. He added the first warship will be rearmed with Onix and Caliber missiles in 2017. In 2016 Vice President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation for military construction Igor Ponomarev told TASS the shipyards have not received full tactical and technical assignments and the work "has not been launched in full volume".


    Subsequently, Shaposhnikov to receive Kalibres details the refit of the 1st upgraded unit and states:

    In January, it was reported that five Project 1155 large ASW ships of the Northern and Pacific fleets would be repaired and upgraded at the shipbuilding enterprises of North and Far East through 2022. A huge amount of work to update life support systems and radio-technical equipment of the ships will be fulfilled.

    Upgrading the Udaloys makes a lot of sense and will hugely enhance their combat capability for ASW and anti-surface, though lack of a potent medium range SAM will prevent them from being a true multi-purpose destroyer.

    Excellent news. 5 big ships till 2022? they never would be able to build 5 new frigates in such short  time.
    Another source, list of planned procurement plan for 2017 for Dalzovod in Vladivostok  (although form 2015)

    http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/1996073.html

    There will be both:
    Urans (Kh-35U if you prefer) and 2x8 Calibrs.

    No info there about new AAD system but I would be surprised if RuN lets so big ship to be used for 30 more years had no decentAAD.
    I'd guess that 4x AK-630 will be replaced by Palash/Pantsir and 4x8 kindhal by 2x12 Shtil (or in place of TA 550mm something as well)


    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:07 am


    Aside from the usual stupidity of the article falsely implying Russian ships entering UK Territorial waters other than 100% legal passage of English Channel etc, that pic is very interesting.
    Note that most of Gorshkov hull is much closer to sea temperature, much more uniform temperature, hot spots mostly confined to expected areas like radar. (or is that just the extra distance hurting sensor resolution?)

    Any idea what Gorshkov is doing in the North Sea?
    Has it been in Baltic recently, I had the idea it was still up North since last round of tests? Suspect
    If its been in Baltic, presumably transiting North for new tests, if its been North then a transit to Baltic would presumably be either for further refit or preps for handover.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:42 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    No info there about new AAD system but I would be surprised if RuN lets so big ship to be used for 30 more years had no decentAAD.
    I'd guess that 4x AK-630 will be replaced by Palash/Pantsir and 4x8 kindhal by 2x12 Shtil (or in place of TA 550mm something as well)

    Don't underestimate Kinzhal - its a navalised Tor and is a great missile for both point defense and can handle multiple small fast incoming threats with heavy enemy ECM.  I'd expect there is an upgrade path available for the old style Kinzhal bin launchers (the updated "Yozh" from the early 90s is equal to the Tor-M1).  Kinzhal (updated) and 4x AK-630s will give the Udaloy an excellent CIWS coverage.

    I'd expect Kinzhal to be upgraded and AK-630s to be retained, but with improved sensors and controls (the Shaposhnikov has been stripped of her main radars but still retains the MR-360 podkats for kinzhal fire control).  Retrofit of a medium range SAM would be problematic, but could potentially be achieved with a portable package like a navalised Buk-M3 "TELAR" similar to the Tor-M2KM.  This would however require a new 3D target acquisition radar to fulfill the role that a "Snow Drift" assumes in a Buk battery, but as a new 3D radar appears to be part of the rebuild, this might not be a significant hurdle?  

    My guess is that a medium-range SAM won't be part of the upgrade as a cost saving measure, and the Udaloys role will be to provide primary ASW support to task force, and to bolster anti-surface & land attack as needed.

    BTW the Udaloy has 8x 8-round launcher bins, 4x fore & 4x aft, each with a MR-360 FCS.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:32 pm


    ...4x AK-630s will give the Udaloy an excellent CIWS coverage....

    What are the chances of Udalois getting AK-630M1-2 (twin gun) CIWS, ones used on Buyan-M boats?

    They fit on same slot and require little modifications on the ship, if any.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    ...4x AK-630s will give the Udaloy an excellent CIWS coverage....

    What are the chances of Udalois getting AK-630M1-2 (twin gun) CIWS, ones used on Buyan-M boats?

    They fit on same slot and require little modifications on the ship, if any.

    yup, even better thumbsup just need a little more cash...
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:49 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    ...4x AK-630s will give the Udaloy an excellent CIWS coverage....

    What are the chances of Udalois getting AK-630M1-2 (twin gun) CIWS, ones used on Buyan-M boats?

    They fit on same slot and require little modifications on the ship, if any.

    Not much of a chance.
    The recoil of the duet system is much greater than that of the regular mounts. Parts of the superstructure and even hull of the ship will need to be strengthened.
    Too much work and costs involved. Not worth it.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:01 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    ..........

    You're right Tor or in this case probably Tor-M2M is potent short range missile nonetheless cannot protect of ship grouping. ASW is important task but I do no think that 5 ships is updated only for this role.  They are supposed to serve 30 more years until succeeded by Leaders. Besides ASW and AAD is what makes grouping of 22800 even harder to "take down".





    TheArmenian wrote:
    Not much of a chance.
    The recoil of the duet system is much greater than that of the regular mounts. Parts of the superstructure and even hull of the ship will need to be strengthened. 
    Too much work and costs involved. Not worth it.




    For ships that still to serve 30 more years? are you sure?
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    runaway

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    More ships

    Post  runaway on Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:41 pm

    The last ships to be laid down was Admiral Isakov in 2013...
    That's 5 years ago, will the next be in the Project 22350M series and when will that take place? As I see it the M series, if a successful trial of the original of course, would be much better to Lider class Destroyer which will very expensive and takes along time to finish.
    Its time to lay down Gorshkovs in serious numbers so they finally can retire the Uds and Sovs.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:16 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    ...4x AK-630s will give the Udaloy an excellent CIWS coverage....

    What are the chances of Udalois getting AK-630M1-2 (twin gun) CIWS, ones used on Buyan-M boats?

    They fit on same slot and require little modifications on the ship, if any.

    Not much of a chance.
    The recoil of the duet system is much greater than that of the regular mounts. Parts of the superstructure and even hull of the ship will need to be strengthened.
    Too much work and costs involved. Not worth it.

    Are you sure? I mean I'm not saying that you are wrong but Udalois are really massive, they seem sturdy enough to deal with big CIWS recoil... aren't they?


    runaway wrote:
    The last ships to be laid down was Admiral Isakov in 2013... 
    That's 5 years ago, will the next be in the Project 22350M series and when will that take place? As I see it the M series, if a successful trial of the original of course, would be much better to Lider class Destroyer which will very expensive and takes along time to finish.
    Its time to lay down Gorshkovs in serious numbers so they finally can retire the Uds and Sovs.

    Been saying that same thing myself for years, what are they waiting for?

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:13 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:



    For ships that still to serve 30 more years? are you sure?

    300 more years, at least.

    Then they'll get nuclear fusion power plants and get converted into spaceships.

    After updates and SLEPs, they will serve actively between 12 and 15  more years each hull, that's it, reaching each hull 40+ active service's total life.

    Only Admiral Chabanenko is likely to serve around 20 years after upgrade, because hull and systems are still fairly young.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:02 am

    3rd & 4th units under construction, photo dated Jan 18


    walle83

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  walle83 on Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:32 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:3rd & 4th units under construction, photo dated Jan 18


    Six years in construction, and still a long way to go.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:06 am

    walle83 wrote:.....

    Six years in construction, and still a long way to go.


    And not a single new one ordered since.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:26 am

    I read on a russian forum that the only reason the super gorshkov is being even considered is because of russian admirals on almaz antey's payroll lobbying for it so more ships are built with almaz antey missiles. Apparently almaz antey is really scared of the russian navy not buying their mssiles anymore due to the redut shitshow.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:39 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I read on a russian forum that the only reason the super gorshkov is being even considered is because of russian admirals on almaz antey's payroll lobbying for it so more ships are built with almaz antey missiles. Apparently almaz antey is really scared of the russian navy not buying their mssiles anymore due to  the redut shitshow.

    You read it on a forum...  fuck, well it must be true...   Suspect

    While we're on the subject, I read on a forum that the lead unit of the Pr 23560 Lider has been laid down already....  can't remember where I read it, but its gotta be real eh?...   clown

    Back in the real world, Almaz-Antei is Russias premier manufacturer of SAM missiles, and despite any issues they may be having with long-range Redut, their future is assured.  They don't need to indulge in US style corruption by putting cash into the pockets of politicians and ex-Military "experts" and 'lobbyists" for the Gov to place orders for critical national defense equipment. The more likely reason for the "Super Gorshkov" is that the RuN wants a bigger ship so that it can significantly increase the firepower per hull?
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Isos on Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:00 am


    While we're on the subject, I read on a forum that the lead unit of the Pr 23560 Lider has been laid down already....  can't remember where I read it, but its gotta be real eh?...   clown

    LaughingLaughingLaughinglol1


    Back in the real world, Almaz-Antei is Russias premier manufacturer of SAM missiles, and despite any issues they may be having with long-range Redut, their future is assured. They don't need to indulge in US style corruption by putting cash into the pockets of politicians and ex-Military "experts" and 'lobbyists" for the Gov to place orders for critical national defense equipment. The more likely reason for the "Super Gorshkov" is that the RuN wants a bigger ship so that it can significantly increase the firepower per hull?

    The lobby from defense industries in Russia is as powerfull as in US. It's dangerous to not control those guys.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Kimppis on Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:47 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:.....

    Six years in construction, and still a long way to go.


    And not a single new one ordered since.

    Well, it seems the plan is to have 6 in total of them by around 2025, that is what Shoigu said, etc., so they actually aren't in a hurry, from that POV anyway.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Isos on Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:46 am

    Kimppis wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:.....

    Six years in construction, and still a long way to go.


    And not a single new one ordered since.

    Well, it seems the plan is to have 6 in total of them by around 2025, that is what Shoigu said, etc., so they actually aren't in a hurry, from that POV anyway.

    Aren't they planing to stop the production for the super gorshkov ? That would be nice. But it is more likely that they stop the production because of money.

    3 in he north and 3 in the pacific is already good compare to what they have now. At least it replace the sovromenys. And they have new corvettes and grigorovich.

    Also after 6 produced, the shipyard workers will be used to building them and they will go faster for the super gorshkov which keep the same design. Same also for the weapons which will be in serial production and well tested so there won't be issues with it.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:26 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:.....

    Six years in construction, and still a long way to go.

    And not a single new one ordered since.

    ...because of a deliberate go-slow due to changing requirements, lack of GT engines, and prolonged commissioning of all new integrated weapons & sensors & comms & battle management etc etc

    Surface navy is simply not a priority for Russia and it shows. Subs are the priority, and 8x Borei and 7x Yasen sink the lions share of the procurement funds. Stop crying about it, and stop acting like its a huge problem.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:45 am

    This is a joke when people talk about Redut. The system has been working for a bit now, since October, and it was 1 missile type from 1 daughter company (Furke).

    But it seems that Shtil system is gaining attention due to it's success in use and tests, as well as it has available long range missiles.

    So Grigorovich class may get further development and improvements. Who knows.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:58 am

    ...because of a deliberate go-slow due to changing requirements, lack of GT engines, and prolonged commissioning of all new integrated weapons & sensors & comms & battle management etc etc
    That.
    Gorshkov has been a classic case of concurrency hell (exacerbated by the engines bit) & its sensible IMO to hold off on new construction until that is sorted.
    Its a shocker how long its taken to get sorted but still no point building more when stuff remains broken.

    The system has been working for a bit now, since October, and it was 1 missile type from 1 daughter company (Furke).
    Furke is the navalised version of Pantsir-S1 radar as used on the 20380, its fundamentally underpowered for controlling 9M96 but otherwise unrelated to Gorshkov.
    Unless you mean the Furke-4 on Gorshkov? AFAIK thats different frequency, different tech & used as Search radar only, not related to actual firing of the Redut/9M96.
    If its the Furke-4 which has issues it'd certainly delay Acceptance but we'd surely have official statements blaming the Furke rather than blaming 9M96/Poliment? Suspect


    I see 22350M as a sensible compromise between incredibly expensive Lider that would presumably also have huge risk of Concurrency Hell & actually fixing 22350.
    Big Concurrency Hell risk still but much less so than Lider would have & presumably would leverage bits of 22350 which actually work.

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