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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    GarryB
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:43 am

    It is all new and as I mentioned there are a lot of electronic systems packed in a ship that need to work together... there has been a long history of new stuff being put on board ships only to find things don't work the way they should.

    Sometimes you don't find out until it is too late... look at the British experience in the falklands... on paper the Sea Wolf system should have easily dealt with a few Exocets, but they didn't know the Sea Wolf system interfered with their satellite communications.

    Who was to know that when they turned off their Sea Wolf CIWS to speak to London that they would be attacked with the one missile type they really needed the Sea Wolf defence missile to defend them from... Sea Dart is fine as long as the threat is not sea skimming... but the Argentines had both Sea Dart and Exocet...

    From what I have read here about what works and what does not with Poliment Redut, it seems to me that if the long range missile fails after a few seconds of flight that the missile is not getting target data for a lofted flight profile to get it to its target area... I would assume the missile would not be launched until there is a target lock and track and the fire control solution has been calculated... therefore the missile is being launched but not sent to the intercept area for the terminal phase of the interception to take place.

    Could be the datalink or something interfering with that... reportedly the short range missile works (40-60km range) but the long range missile (120-160km) is the one with the problem.

    The issue with engines means they have time to sort it out...


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    George1
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:53 am

    Frigate Admiral Kasatonov will be transferred to fleet in 2017



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2257500.html


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:31 am

    Nice series of Gorshkov leaving Baltiysk 22nd via Balancer forum








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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:10 pm

    And has arrived at St Petersburg


    Bastion Karpenko reckons Poliment-Redut is sorted & is likely to go into service soon http://foto-i-mir.ru/22350-gorshkov-161124/ (also more pics there)
    Google translate wrote:According to experts, the particular difficulties to ship test called new anti-aircraft missile system "Poliment-Redoute," but now these problems have been solved, and there is a great likelihood that the lead ship "Admiral Gorshkov" in a series of frigates of Project 22350 will soon join the Russian Navy.
    The decision on transmission Navy frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" project 22350 will be made after the audit of all its systems, naval sources say.
    I'll believe it when I see it  Suspect

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:03 am

    hoom wrote:And has arrived at St Petersburg


    Bastion Karpenko reckons Poliment-Redut is sorted & is likely to go into service soon http://foto-i-mir.ru/22350-gorshkov-161124/ (also more pics there)
    Google translate wrote:According to experts, the particular difficulties to ship test called new anti-aircraft missile system "Poliment-Redoute," but now these problems have been solved, and there is a great likelihood that the lead ship "Admiral Gorshkov" in a series of frigates of Project 22350 will soon join the Russian Navy.
    The decision on transmission Navy frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" project 22350 will be made after the audit of all its systems, naval sources say.
    I'll believe it when I see it  Suspect

    agreed, show me the system works then I'll believe it.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Ned86 on Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:23 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    agreed, show me the system works then I'll believe it.
    Well you can expect russian navy will now post all evidence about this system working, just to make you believe Smile

    you have plenty of videos on youtube, showing Redut system in operation(mostly on Project 20380 ships).
    Last one we have seen is this one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jug4ddRm4M

    anyway it is the same system installed on Project 22350.
    All news about problems with redut were speculations, and officially they have some problems with system in condition with Electronic countermeasure systems on....where redut system apparently didn't act as they wanted....

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:26 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...........

    agreed, show me the system works then I'll believe it.

    Check your inbox, they already emailed you all the data and blueprints. Razz

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:28 am

    Ned86 wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    agreed, show me the system works then I'll believe it.
    Well you can expect russian navy will now post all evidence about this system working, just to make you believe Smile

    you have plenty of videos on youtube, showing Redut system in operation(mostly on Project 20380 ships).
    Last one we have seen is this one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jug4ddRm4M

    anyway it is the same system installed on Project 22350.
    All news about problems with redut were speculations, and officially they have some problems with system in condition with Electronic countermeasure systems on....where redut system apparently didn't act as they wanted....

    Far has I know they got the short range missile to work but not the long range one.

    "Well you can expect russian navy will now post all evidence about this system working, just to make you believe Smile"

    Did I mock you in a sarcastic manner, No?. Manners get them.

    To date the system wasn't fully operational there is nothing wrong with wanting to see it's full operation before you believe it. Because you know the Russian Navy has never lied before right?.

    Excuse me for wanting to see evidence of the claim.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:30 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...........

    agreed, show me the system works then I'll believe it.

    Check your inbox, they already emailed you all the data and blueprints. Razz

    You express reasonable doubt given past circumstances and this is the reaction you get? Tisk.




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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  VladimirSahin on Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:37 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...........

    agreed, show me the system works then I'll believe it.

    Check your inbox, they already emailed you all the data and blueprints. Razz

    You express reasonable doubt given past circumstances and this is the reaction you get? Tisk.




    It's friendly sarcasm man Smile I understand your concern however I don't think there is any reason to doubt this ship being ready for its service.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:45 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...........

    agreed, show me the system works then I'll believe it.

    Check your inbox, they already emailed you all the data and blueprints. Razz

    You express reasonable doubt given past circumstances and this is the reaction you get? Tisk.

    Humor. Try it, it's awesome.

    Also, nobody will be showing us anything. If it works it gets sent into service, if not then back to testing.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  zg18 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:01 pm

    "Admiral Kasatonov"


    hoom
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:26 am

    It's actually starting to look close to completion Shocked

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Dennis_3003 on Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:01 am

    Hopefully the lead Gorshkov will be commissioned this month.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Benya on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:13 pm

    Pictures: Russian Navy 2nd Project 22350 Gorshkov-class Frigate Being Fitted Out in St Petersburg

    Pictures published by spotters in Russia show the second Project 22350 (NATO reporting name: Admiral Gorshkov-class) frigate "Admiral Kasatonov" nearing completion at Severnaya Verf (Northern Shipyard) in Saint Petersburg.


    Admiral Kasatonov, the second Project 22350 Frigate of the Russia Navy at fitting out stage in St Petersburg. Picture: Alexey Akentev

    The pictures are showing that the Furke-4 volume search radar is in place at the top of the main mast. The A-192M 130mm main naval gun system is still to be fitted however.

    The frigate was laid down at Severnaya Verf on 26 November 2009 and launched on December 12, 2014. Start of sea trials was scheduled for 2016 but has been pushed back to 2017.

    The lead ship of the Project 22350 series was laid down in early 2006 and set afloat in the fall of 2010. The frigate started its trials in November 2014. Delivery date to the Russian Navy is still uncertain. Launch of the third ship of the class, the Admiral Golovko, is scheduled for 2017.


    Admiral Kasatonov, the second Project 22350 Frigate of the Russia Navy at fitting out stage in St Petersburg. Picture: Alexey Akentev

    The Project 22350 frigate is designed to fight surface warships and submarines in the ocean and coastal areas and repel air attacks both independently and within a formation. The Project 22350 frigate is flush-decked and has three-island superstructures, a tower mast and a steel tube. The ship has a lower radar signature.

    The Project 22350 frigate has a displacement of 4,550 tons and a length of 135 meters. The capacity of its diesel-gas-turbine power plant is 65,000 hp. The ship is armed with the new A-192 130mm artillery gun and anti-ship, antisubmarine and air defense missile systems, including the Kalibr and Redut-Poliment systems.
    The ship is capable of carrying a Kamov Ka-27 (Helix) helicopter or its versions.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/december-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4724-pictures-russian-navy-2nd-project-22350-gorshkov-class-frigate-being-fitted-out-in-st-petersburg.html



    If NPO Saturn has started to produce the engines for the ships of the class, then the delays won't affect the "Admiral Golovko" and "Admiral Isakov" (3rd and 4th ships of the class) that much, so they could be delivered in time. I don't want to speculate, but I think that if "Admiral Gorshkov" (lead ship of the class), will be commissioned in early 2017 (or maybe this month), and Kasatonov will start its trials at the same time, it is likely to be commissioned in late 2017 or early 2018, then Golovko would finish its trials in mid to late 2018, and would be commissioned shortly after that.

    I have heard some rumors that Golovko and Isakov would be commissioned to the Pacific Fleet, which is IMO highly unlikely, since they should be constructed at an other shipyard in the Far East, and AFAIK all current ships of the class will be constructed at Severnaya Verf, and will be issued to the Northern Fleet.

    In the future (around 2025-2030) other fleets will receive such frigates too (except the Black Sea Fleet, which will have 6 Admiral Grigorovich-class frigates,— currently, they have 2 — and the Caspian Flottila, which has 2 Gepard-class frigates)

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Benya on Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:05 pm

    Russian Navy to receive 1st Project 22350 Frigate Admiral Gorshkov in first half of 2017

    The Project 22350 lead frigate Admiral Gorshkov will be delivered to Russia’s Navy in the first half of 2017, Navy Chief-of-Staff Vice-Admiral Andrei Volozhinsky said.


    Project 22350 lead frigate Admiral Gorshkov in St. Petersburg in October 2016

    "Shipyards always face difficulties when they develop vessels, especially lead ships. However, this task will be accomplished within the next several months. I am glad that there are no time limits. Thorough work is under way so that the Navy receives a perfect finished ship," Volozhinsky said.

    It was reported in November that the frigate Admiral Gorshkov had completed its state trials but the decision on its joining the Navy would be taken only after all its systems were checked.

    The Project 22350 lead frigate Admiral Gorshkov was laid down in early 2006 and put afloat in the autumn of 2010. The ship started undergoing trials in November 2014. The second Project 22350 frigate Admiral Kasatonov was floated out in 2014. The third frigate Admiral Golovko is expected to be put afloat in 2017.

    The Project 22350 frigate has a displacement of 4,500 tons and a speed of 29 knots. The frigate is armed with Oniks (NATO reporting name: SS-N-26 Strobile) and Kalibr (SS-N-27 Sizzler) missiles and the Poliment-Redut air defense missile system.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/december-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4745-russian-navy-to-receive-1st-project-22350-frigate-admiral-gorshkov-in-first-half-of-2017.html

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:22 am

    Second unit of this class (Adm. Kasatonov) will start sea trials this summer.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:45 am

    Benya wrote:Russian Navy to receive 1st Project 22350 Frigate Admiral Gorshkov in first half of 2017

    The Project 22350 lead frigate Admiral Gorshkov will be delivered to Russia’s Navy in the first half of 2017, Navy Chief-of-Staff Vice-Admiral Andrei Volozhinsky said.


    Project 22350 lead frigate Admiral Gorshkov in St. Petersburg in October 2016

    "Shipyards always face difficulties when they develop vessels, especially lead ships. However, this task will be accomplished within the next several months. I am glad that there are no time limits. Thorough work is under way so that the Navy receives a perfect finished ship," Volozhinsky said.

    It was reported in November that the frigate Admiral Gorshkov had completed its state trials but the decision on its joining the Navy would be taken only after all its systems were checked.

    The Project 22350 lead frigate Admiral Gorshkov was laid down in early 2006 and put afloat in the autumn of 2010. The ship started undergoing trials in November 2014. The second Project 22350 frigate Admiral Kasatonov was floated out in 2014. The third frigate Admiral Golovko is expected to be put afloat in 2017.

    The Project 22350 frigate has a displacement of 4,500 tons and a speed of 29 knots. The frigate is armed with Oniks (NATO reporting name: SS-N-26 Strobile) and Kalibr (SS-N-27 Sizzler) missiles and the Poliment-Redut air defense missile system.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/december-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4745-russian-navy-to-receive-1st-project-22350-frigate-admiral-gorshkov-in-first-half-of-2017.html

    Really? ANOTHER delay going on eleven years now.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:31 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Really? ANOTHER delay going on eleven years now.
    oh comon....you are overreacting now 10 or 15 years more or less no big deal....

    Smile

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:58 pm

    A lazy conman wrote: I am glad that there are no time limits
    State rearmament program 2020??? HELLO????? Ever heard of it??? Mad Mad Mad angry angry angry angry angry

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:29 am

    Yeah, of course it is vastly more important to get ships into service on time because those times were set by god and must be adhered to within the strict bounds of religion and mother nature.

    Then again putting a vessel into service just to meet a deadline that has no other meaning than being an arbitrarily date based on guesses of how long everything takes that did not take into account unforseen problems with the engines and the 130mm guns and the self defence missile systems, is very naive.

    Here is your ship... it is on time even though it does not work but boy I guess you are really happy you got it on time... right?


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:21 am

    GarryB wrote:Yeah, of course it is vastly more important to get ships into service on time because those times were set by god and must be adhered to within the strict bounds of religion and mother nature.

    Then again putting a vessel into service just to meet a deadline that has no other meaning than being an arbitrarily date based on guesses of how long everything takes that did not take into account unforseen problems with the engines and the 130mm guns and the self defence missile systems, is very naive.

    Here is your ship... it is on time even though it does not work but boy I guess you are really happy you got it on time... right?

    Look man you can defend this colossal failure all you wish.

    11 YEARS for a ship of that size regardless of it being built with new tech is a disgrace.

    If this was a carrier that would be MUCH MUCH more understandable.

    All your are saying here means the shipbuilding industry cannot get their heads out of their ass. THe mere fact the systems or whatever isn't done yet is NO excuse after 11 years.

    There is NO defending this failure. Also this ship HAS it's engine so don't even use that here.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:25 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Look man you can defend this colossal failure all you wish.

    11 YEARS for a ship of that size regardless of it being built with new tech is a disgrace.

    If this was a carrier that would be MUCH MUCH more understandable.

    All your are saying here means the shipbuilding industry cannot get their heads out of their ass. THe mere fact the systems or whatever isn't done yet is NO excuse after 11 years.

    There is NO defending this failure. Also this ship HAS it's engine so don't even use that here.

    Agreed.  The Zumwalt Class is an unmitigated disaster. Or maybe you mean the LCT?....

    By contrast, the Gorshkov may be well behind schedule, but she is a useful design and will be a huge leap forward for the RuN once all the bugs are resolved and the engine supply issues are resolved.  Until then, test her until she breaks and make 100% sure that all of her systems, sensors and weapons function as intended and that she is fully fit for purpose.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:41 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Look man you can defend this colossal failure all you wish.

    11 YEARS for a ship of that size regardless of it being built with new tech is a disgrace.

    If this was a carrier that would be MUCH MUCH more understandable.

    All your are saying here means the shipbuilding industry cannot get their heads out of their ass. THe mere fact the systems or whatever isn't done yet is NO excuse after 11 years.

    There is NO defending this failure. Also this ship HAS it's engine so don't even use that here.

    Agreed.  The Zumwalt Class is an unmitigated disaster. Or maybe you mean the LCT?....

    By contrast, the Gorshkov may be well behind schedule, but she is a useful design and will be a huge leap forward for the RuN once all the bugs are resolved and the engine supply issues are resolved.  Until then, test her until she breaks and make 100% sure that all of her systems, sensors and weapons function as intended and that she is fully fit for purpose.

    We aren't talking about another ships here.

    I have no doubt it will be a good ship, just saying this timeframe is beyond absurd.

    It shouldn't take them 11 years to sort out all these bugs, hell they still haven't gotten the Redut to work fully.

    Russia has a major problem with it's ship building industry in getting things done on time.

    To pretend otherwise does nothing.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:11 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...............

    We aren't talking about another ships here.

    I have no doubt it will be a good ship, just saying this timeframe is beyond absurd.

    It shouldn't take them 11 years to sort out all these bugs, hell they still haven't gotten the Redut to work fully.

    Russia has a major problem with it's ship building industry in getting things done on time.

    To pretend otherwise does nothing.

    I am quoting you Seig but this is directed at everyone and I have to start somehow:

    This is not fast and Russia does have problems with naval construction. This is no mystery.

    However this most recent news you seem to be arguing over is at least month old. At first I assumed it was some big news that got all of you guys to lose your mind but it was just false alarm. This delay is nothing new.


    And as for delays in general I will repost something I wrote elsewhere:

    I personally have one very simple rule about Russian Naval construction: ignore vessels whose construction started before 2010. I just don't take their delivery speed into any assessment.

    Reason: before 2008 Georgia incident nobody in Russia gave 2 sh*ts about military and navy in particular. So let's say it took them couple of years to get off their asses and you get year 2010.

    I will gladly criticize any ship whose construction started after that point but as for stuff before that, when they come, they come.

    Call it force majeure and save yourself (and others) some hassle.

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