Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

The problem is the engines as we all know, the npo saturn is developing new ones in a hurry. So we have 4 ships being constructed with hulls ready. As soon as the new engines are ready we will see the ships rapidly coming into service.

It would make sense to continue building gregorovich frigates as the new destroyer is 10-15 years away and sovrymennys and udaloys is soon completely obselete.

The russian warship industri would need a sucess after many failures and broken timelines.

runaway wrote:The problem is the engines as we all know, the npo saturn is developing new ones in a hurry. So we have 4 ships being constructed with hulls ready. As soon as the new engines are ready we will see the ships rapidly coming into service.

It would make sense to continue building gregorovich frigates as the new destroyer is 10-15 years away and sovrymennys and udaloys is soon completely obselete.

The russian warship industri would need a sucess after many failures and broken timelines.

They laid the head ship down in 06 even with the engine problems still should have been able to finish six ships problem is they took so much time with the first few by the time the engines became a problem none where finished. They said at first it would be in the ranks by 09. Now I understand yes new ship and all sure but again this isn't a massive warship. its a frigate they have made Icebreakers and submarines with bigger tonnage quicker then this. Yes an Icebreaker isn't a military ship and subs are different also.

Yes the Engines are a problem, still the rate of construction has been slow since the start. Heck China can make ships of all classes way quicker.

runaway wrote:The problem is the engines as we all know, the npo saturn is developing new ones in a hurry. So we have 4 ships being constructed with hulls ready. As soon as the new engines are ready we will see the ships rapidly coming into service.

It would make sense to continue building gregorovich frigates as the new destroyer is 10-15 years away and sovrymennys and udaloys is soon completely obselete.

The russian warship industri would need a sucess after many failures and broken timelines.

Since they are already waiting for engines they might as well just focus on Gorshkovs because Grigorevich uses same engines so it's delay one way or the other. Better to go with new stuff. And without engines they might as well use that time to iron out missile problems on lead ship. One ship more or less over six month period is nothing.

sepheronx wrote:This is a reason why this forums is turning to crap....  once again, new systems not made before. You guys can clearly read English (I hope), the issue is Almaz antey. Not shipyard.  Their navy based aad system Poliment Redut is just not working and apparently they broken it down to Fakel plant that makes the S-400 system.  As Gary pointed out, when making them for ship, it isn't the same and many problems arise.  AA will have to get their facility in order as the ministers made mention of the plants condition and that they were very unimpressed.  At same time, the authorities made it very well known they are forcing the KPI system on many state companies, including AA.

Yes new systems, however new systems alone should not cause such a massive delay, I understand when making something new there will be problems you will need to iron out first. That's a given still these issue should be resolved in a more timely manner. It's not like they never dealt with such issues before.

There is problem with the shipbuilding industry that cannot be ignored, I am sure once they actually start commissioning these things at a regular pace they will be fine frigates, Russia makes quality stuff despite what most people think. It's just a shame on the progress.

PapaDragon wrote:

runaway wrote:The problem is the engines as we all know, the npo saturn is developing new ones in a hurry. So we have 4 ships being constructed with hulls ready. As soon as the new engines are ready we will see the ships rapidly coming into service.

It would make sense to continue building gregorovich frigates as the new destroyer is 10-15 years away and sovrymennys and udaloys is soon completely obselete.

The russian warship industri would need a sucess after many failures and broken timelines.

Since they are already waiting for engines they might as well just focus on Gorshkovs because Grigorevich uses same engines so it's delay one way or the other. Better to go with new stuff. And without engines they might as well use that time to iron out missile problems on lead ship. One ship more or less over six month period is nothing.

"NavyRecognition.com reported in March and January 2015 respectively that the Project 20385 (Gremyashchy), Project 21631 (Buyan-M), Project 22350 (Admiral Gorshkov), and Project 11356M (Admiral Grigovich) class corvettes and frigates are dependent on German and Ukrainian engines.[17] Projects 20385 and 21631 use German diesel engines, while the 22350 and 11356M use Ukrainian-assembled turbines"

Not that it matters much but its not the same engines.

So there it is, no new gorshkov or grigorovich until 2019-2020. The last 3 grigorovich could be sold to india.

Guess the big ships is put on hold and they will be building the new type of corvettes with russian engines.

runaway wrote:

"NavyRecognition.com reported in March and January 2015 respectively that the Project 20385 (Gremyashchy), Project 21631 (Buyan-M), Project 22350 (Admiral Gorshkov), and Project 11356M (Admiral Grigovich) class corvettes and frigates are dependent on German and Ukrainian engines.[17] Projects 20385 and 21631 use German diesel engines, while the 22350 and 11356M use Ukrainian-assembled turbines"

Not that it matters much but its not the same engines.

So there it is, no new gorshkov or grigorovich until 2019-2020. The last 3 grigorovich could be sold to india.

Guess the big ships is put on hold and they will be building the new type of corvettes with russian engines.

Whoa, thats a lot of BS going on, I understand that they need to fix all critical problems with these ships before they put them to full production, but at least make the work faster and the time frames shorter..,

So much sour grapes and so much whine... kinda sad.

China is building them fast... really?

And what are they actually building?

I am sure if Russia decided to build updated Sovremmenys and updated Udaloys they could build them just as quickly, but Russia wants something that wont be obsolete when it is finished I suspect.

BTW there wont be any engine problems with their big ships as they will all be Russian made nukes.

GarryB wrote:........

BTW there wont be any engine problems with their big ships as they will all be Russian made nukes.

Now that you mentioned it, I came across this article that claims that all Russian ship from frigates and above will be getting nuclear powerplants. Is that even possible or is it just another rumor?

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4183

@ Runaway

The 20385 Gremyashy recently received Russian-made engines. This class no longer depends on German engines.
The 21631 Buyan class will be fitted with Russian or Chinese engines. That problem will solved as well.
Only the Grigorovich and Gorshkov class frigates are still affected. Entirely Russian made powerplant might become available for them probably in 2017-18.

@ Papadragon

The Leader class ships will almost certainly nuclear propelled.
But, I doubt that all future frigates will be nuclear powered. There are restrictions on nuclear vessels. For example, they cannot pass through the Bosphorus. They are also forbidden to enter certain ports.

sepheronx wrote:This is a reason why this forums is turning to crap....  once again, new systems not made before. You guys can clearly read English (I hope), the issue is Almaz antey. Not shipyard.  Their navy based aad system Poliment Redut is just not working and apparently they broken it down to Fakel plant that makes the S-400 system.  As Gary pointed out, when making them for ship, it isn't the same and many problems arise.  AA will have to get their facility in order as the ministers made mention of the plants condition and that they were very unimpressed.  At same time, the authorities made it very well known they are forcing the KPI system on many state companies, including AA.

Excuses, they are like ass ...everybody have them.

There are no excuses for building 2000t corvette more then 10 years (Sovershennyy 2006-???), there is no excuses for building 4500t frigate for 10 years (Gorshkov 2006 february -???) or 6500t LS for 12+ years.

That is just incompetence. (Please do not start BS that you would like to see me doing that job better, that is not my job, my job is done on time and properly, otherwise i would be fired)

It is not matter if problems are in shipyard, or in research institute or in producer of subsystems.

Russia as state is not capable to produce new generation ships in reasonable time. That is FACT and that can not be denied.

And we are talking about rather small ships, just imagine new destroyer 10000+ tonns or carrier 80-100.000t. I hope they will not even try to produce them before they first re-learn how to build modern frigates or corvettes.

How many years should pass before you will see that this is not normal produce rates? 20? Maybee 30??? Is 30 years fine for finish Frigate according to you?

In every big project problems are part of the game, and capability to overcome problems is something that each good team have to have, otherwise it is not good team.

They are unsatisfy with plants conditions you said, well thats on time who would event thing to do checks before give them contract? No....why bother.

I gues that we all on this forum are fans of Russia and Russian military, but that do not means that we should be stupid and/or blind.

Russian shipbuilding industy is in huge problems and Russian security on open seas is jeopadized as just several new oceangoing fighting ships are produced in last 25 years. They are wasting and blocking huge funds in unfinished ships for decades. and you still find excuses.....

First step in problem solving is to addmit that you have one, and understading that finding excuses will not help.

Just for record>
FREM 6500T time of production: 5 years (even first ship)
La Fayette Time of production: less then 4 years firs shipe latter ships 2-3 years.
Mistral 20000T : 3 years.


Sorry for pointing obivious thing to you but it seems you need that. Or prefer staying blind.

sepheronx wrote:You are far from correct. Take a look at laid down time of Talwar/Grigorovich to time inducted. 3 years. Larger ships than the corvettes.

And they already admitted the problem, so did I. But in your infinite wisdome (more like stupidity) you called it an excuse. No, it isn'tthe the shipyard this time,Almaz Antey. The officials pointed this out. Want to state they are wrong? If you weren't so stupid, and decided to read the articles, then you would grasp it.

They could install older systems like Shtil-1 instead or S-300F, and get it out soon. But that defeated the purposes of the ships.  The ships you mentioned, are these ships from brand new design and to commission, or ships in production already before?

Great starting with personal attacks and insults, that is great sign that you have no good answer. Do insulting makes you feel better? You cannot do better then that?

Try to read carefully, i have mentioned NEW GENERATION ships, dammit i even bolded that words and you still didnt notice? Grigorovich is not NEW GENERATION ship its roots are in 1970. Capish?

And as i said it is not matter who failed, at the end it is fail of Russia as state.

Even instaling Shtill would be better then having several hundred million USD worth ship unfinished for years. Those Grigorovich ships are not fancy but they are in service and i have no bad thoughts about them.

I do not have idfinite wisdom but i can recognize shit when i see one. Could you?

kvs wrote:We have no idea how serious these problems are.  All the anger is based on speculation.   I defer to Russian engineers at Almaz Antey and
the respective ship building companies to

1) know what they are doing better than anyone on the internet pontificating in fora

2) be able to handle the obvious growing pains.   This work is not cookie cutter mass production but basically
custom, development mode prototyping.   People who think that this type of deployment will have no problems
are clueless.

It is routine to fob Russia off as incompetent, and "behind the west".   This is propaganda mythology.   NATO corporations
are better at controlling the information flow since they have every worker sign NDAs and any breach of these contracts
will leave these workers living under bridges in cardboard boxes.   In Russia we have too much worker yapping freedom and
not swarm of lawyers and contracts to keep them quiet.  Believe it or not this culture dates back to the USSR period where
it was popular to blame everything on the system.

So it is just some worker who disclose information? Those ships are actually in service and working fine. Ok sorry then my bad....


I have big respect to most of Russian MIC, they are quite good in many fields, Fighter aircrafts all kind of SAM systems, artillery, engineering equipement, ATGM, etc etc.. but in field of new generation oceangoing ships they suck.
period.

sepheronx wrote:You are far from correct. Take a look at laid down time of Talwar/Grigorovich to time inducted. 3 years. Larger ships than the corvettes.

And they already admitted the problem, so did I. But in your infinite wisdome (more like stupidity) you called it an excuse. No, it isn'tthe the shipyard this time,Almaz Antey. The officials pointed this out. Want to state they are wrong? If you weren't so stupid, and decided to read the articles, then you would grasp it.

They could install older systems like Shtil-1 instead or S-300F, and get it out soon. But that defeated the purposes of the ships.

You have already change your message, but all of ships i mentioned are new design.

sepheronx wrote:Yes, clearly I can. Does any of those ships you mention carry S-400? Only ships that carry such an advanced arsenal is the Aleig burk.  Sucks that it has taken so long but talwar is a heavily modified ship of the Kirvak class, but enough that it isn't exactly the same. Yet they can produce them in 3 years, and it carries very modern equipment.  As mentioned, the ships are ready barring the air defense system that is mandated by Almaz Antey. Blaming the shipyard is your fault.

BTW, same air defense system for the corvettes too. Coincidence that both take forever?  If you managed to ready what I stated before hand, I also mentioned they should be using Shtil-1 so they can get the ships out and used. Shtil-1 is very effective anyway.  With some exceptions, Buyan-M didn't face much delays or problems till now. Prior were supplies now it is the engines.

Graeat then stop with insults. Try to be civilized.

You have mentioned AB destroyer, check ther rate of production: 2 years for 10.000tonns destroyer, since first ship. Type 45: 3,5 years for 10.000tons destroyer.

Let Russians be twice slower with twice smaller ship, that would be fine. But being 5 times slower that is not fine in my book.

Ivan Gren also have S 400? SAM is not problem for Corvette. But insisting to building them in shipyard which is not capable to do so, and then rewarding them with 3 more ships. Several hundred million of USD "captured " in that shipyard alone.

If they do not have S 400 ready they shouldnt base all plans on it dont you think? They decided differently and they were wrong thanks to that decision ships are not ready jet and they should be in service for 5 years now. Not that they didnh have experience which could help them, BULAVA remember that? Having multibillion worth ship without main arnament for years. That should be a lesson but it wasnt. That makes me a bit piss off.

sepheronx wrote:Then how come it takes so long for US to build new designed ships like as mentioned before? AB took over 7 years. New design ships takes a long time. How many of the ones you mentioned don't borrow components? How many of them use advanced missile systems like me to ones Redut? Lets be real here. Russia could churn out ships like more Grigorovich's with newer modifications, but won't be nearly as good as Gorshkov will be if it fixes the issue.  If it got redut, it would be sitting idle right now as well.

As mentioned before,they can build massive nuclear powered icebreakers in good time but not these.  What are the issues? The subsystems supplied to them.

Could you please eleborate bolded part?

sepheronx wrote:Sorry, I was mistaken on that. I read it wrong initially on laid out to launched. I read planned to launch date.  Back in the 80's when both sides pumped out ships mad fast.

Now days, not a massive rush but Russia did it all wrong imo.  Have 1 planned frigate and get all shipyards involved.  1 planned corvette, etc etc. Instead, all try to have their own thing.  After Grigorovich, it should be both Kalniningrad plant and st.Petersburg both making the Gorshkov.  And yes, if the systems are not ready, then why bother having these ships waiting for years till it is ready?  Waste of equipment That I am not pleased of either.

Shtil-1 is ideal imo. Or S-300F.

So we have agreed at the end .

They just did all wrong. They have best intentions that is sure...but road to hell is paved with good intentiones.

They tried to be best and perfect in every class. They didnt do selfassesment properly. Do not take task that you cannot finish. Whole navy is in big problems,.

Their foreign policy in Syria is enforced with 40 years old ships...they needed to send Buyans there. Thank god that nobody want to mess with Russia but that fleet there.... Ok Slava is still great but Frigates and Destroyer....

Pacific Fleet. Just one "new " ship in last 25 years. Only North Corea have weaker fleet there. Caspian Fleet is only one that is strong enought...and that is not becouse that fleet is strong.

And whats scares me are their plans to produce destroyers and carierrs. I would surely like to see them. But at this moment i think that Russia have huge work to make their shipbuilding COMPLEX ready for frigates, and only then they should work on destroyer ( i would prefer smaller ones up to 10K).

In mean time...there is lot of good ways to spend defence Money. In fact every way is better then capturing them in unfinnished ships...

Its not only the ships, its the yards and subcontrators Also, the santions have hit the shipbuilding hard. I dare not think about how long the new leader DD or a new CV would take.
Building ships with all parts available would be preferred instead of Try to invent systems as you go along. ...