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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:22 pm

    Which facts? You are getting awefully defensive about this. And last I checked, Harvard isnt in Russia and it isnt a shipyard or a military official. So go give yourself a handy and settle down.

    Saying what a blogger from USA says about ships being built in another country they dont live or opperate in, doesnt make much sence to say "facts". Facts would indicate something like pictures and statements from both military officials and shipyard management.

    And just because they went to a university in US known for churning out self important numpties who are from a wealthy family, means f all in this. So try again.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:00 pm

    I will personally be happy if 6 are commissioned and in service by 2020, but I doubt it.

    The 5-6 estimate isn't new by any means either.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:27 pm

    Guess we need to wait till 2020. 5 more years to go.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:05 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Guess we need to wait till 2020. 5 more years to go.

    That is 5 years (less at this point) to lay down, float out, test and commission two more 22350 frigates.
    Tight schedule. Not impossible, but tight.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:13 am

    It would be nice to know what you disagree with, regarding speed of construction and estimates for 2020, based on the facts that are now available.

    Getting Russian gas turbine engines into production is one thing... getting them to the point where they are reliable and robust is something else.

    That is 5 years (less at this point) to lay down, float out, test and commission two more 22350 frigates.
    Tight schedule. Not impossible, but tight.

    6 in the water by 2020 is good enough... they don't need thousands and they are not stopping production in 2020.

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    Post  xeno Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:51 am

    I realize the full load displacement of a 22350 must be above 5000 mts, probably 5100-5200 mts instead of 4500 mts which is widely quoted on the Internet, as per this official page on project 22356 http://www.severnoe.com/proposals/naval/22356/

    The hulls of 22356 and 22350 are exactly the same, so a normal displacement of 4550 mts will natruall lead to a 5000+ mts full load displacement, of course unless the technical guy and IT guy who prepared this web page were drunk and got things wrong...
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    Post  PutZin Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:27 pm

    TR1 wrote:I will personally be happy if 6 are commissioned and in service by 2020, but I doubt it.

    The 5-6 estimate isn't new by any means either.

    I agree. I think 5 is resonable.
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    Post  PutZin Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    It would be nice to know what you disagree with, regarding speed of construction and estimates for 2020, based on the facts that are now available.

    6 in the water by 2020 is good enough... they don't need thousands and they are not stopping production in 2020.


    It's not about whether the production is going to stop or not. It's about whether or not the official estimates by the Russian officials were realistic back in 2010/11.
    Now that we have entered 2015, we can see that many of those estimates were wrong. Therefore target of 50-70% of what was estimated a few years earlier, is more realistic now.

    So the engine issue is not relevant here. What's relevant is to see how the Russian officials where hyping up their "production numbers", which won't be met by 2020.

    While I do understand that technical problems might occur underway, it's interesting to see how much all procurements are delayed and by how much.

    By the way, an additional analysis has been posted on RussiaMil today. It's a good read.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:55 pm

    PutZin wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    It would be nice to know what you disagree with, regarding speed of construction and estimates for 2020, based on the facts that are now available.

    6 in the water by 2020 is good enough... they don't need thousands and they are not stopping production in 2020.


    It's not about whether the production is going to stop or not. It's about whether or not the official estimates by the Russian officials were realistic back in 2010/11.
    Now that we have entered 2015, we can see that many of those estimates were wrong. Therefore target of 50-70% of what was estimated a few years earlier, is more realistic now.

    So the engine issue is not relevant here. What's relevant is to see how the Russian officials where hyping up their "production numbers", which won't be met by 2020.

    While I do understand that technical problems might occur underway, it's interesting to see how much all procurements are delayed and by how much.

    By the way, an additional analysis has been posted on RussiaMil today. It's a good read.

    Russia's rearmament program has done quite well over the last 5 years and hit most of its targets. Some it's even achieved ahead of schedule.

    Can you please be more specific with the estimates that you are refering to? And what do you think won't be completed by 2020 and on what basis do you believe so?
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    Post  PutZin Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:05 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    PutZin wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    It would be nice to know what you disagree with, regarding speed of construction and estimates for 2020, based on the facts that are now available.

    6 in the water by 2020 is good enough... they don't need thousands and they are not stopping production in 2020.


    It's not about whether the production is going to stop or not. It's about whether or not the official estimates by the Russian officials were realistic back in 2010/11.
    Now that we have entered 2015, we can see that many of those estimates were wrong. Therefore target of 50-70% of what was estimated a few years earlier, is more realistic now.

    So the engine issue is not relevant here. What's relevant is to see how the Russian officials where hyping up their "production numbers", which won't be met by 2020.

    While I do understand that technical problems might occur underway, it's interesting to see how much all procurements are delayed and by how much.

    By the way, an additional analysis has been posted on RussiaMil today. It's a good read.

    Russia's rearmament program has done quite well over the last 5 years and hit most of its targets. Some it's even achieved ahead of schedule.

    Can you please be more specific with the estimates that you are refering to? And what do you think won't be completed by 2020 and on what basis do you believe so?

    Can't post links yet. You can read the article on RussiaMil from January 14th, 2015. It's a good summary of where things stand as of now.

    You and I both know that Russia wanted way more than 5 or 6 Gorskhovs in 2020. This is not the only project that has been delayed either.

    Anything regarding aircraft carriers, destroyers or "cruisers" is not realistic for a very long time; it will take at least another ten or twelve years.

    I do not wish to discuss other delayed projects in this threat, but even Grigorovich "light frigate" has been somewhat delayed, mostly due to the fact that Russia rather wanted to build them for India, instead for themselves.

    Current aircraft carrier should have been refurbished long time ago, but it still isn't.

    Mistral LPDs won't be delivered, unless Marine Le Pen wins French elections in 2017.

    So I do agree with the conclusion, which is that Russian Navy will be more focused on local, smaller enemies and "coastal defence" in general - at least for the next ten years.



    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:59 pm

    xeno wrote:I realize the full load displacement of a 22350 must be above 5000 mts, probably 5100-5200 mts instead of 4500 mts which is widely quoted on the Internet, as per this official page on project 22356 http://www.severnoe.com/proposals/naval/22356/

    The hulls of 22356 and 22350 are exactly the same, so a normal displacement of 4550 mts will natruall lead to a 5000+ mts full load displacement, of course unless the technical guy and IT guy who prepared this web page were drunk and got things wrong...

    All the more reason why 22350 and 22350M is the real 956/1155 replacement. I'd rather have more of these hulls than a stretched small destroyer that brings no real leap of capability over 22350/M.
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    Post  TR1 Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:00 pm

    PutZin wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    It would be nice to know what you disagree with, regarding speed of construction and estimates for 2020, based on the facts that are now available.

    6 in the water by 2020 is good enough... they don't need thousands and they are not stopping production in 2020.


    It's not about whether the production is going to stop or not. It's about whether or not the official estimates by the Russian officials were realistic back in 2010/11.
    Now that we have entered 2015, we can see that many of those estimates were wrong. Therefore target of 50-70% of what was estimated a few years earlier, is more realistic now.

    So the engine issue is not relevant here. What's relevant is to see how the Russian officials where hyping up their "production numbers", which won't be met by 2020.

    While I do understand that technical problems might occur underway, it's interesting to see how much all procurements are delayed and by how much.

    By the way, an additional analysis has been posted on RussiaMil today. It's a good read.


    Russian officials keep harping about 8 Boreiis and 8 Grannays by 2020.
    That says all you really need to know.
    ExBeobachter1987
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:25 pm

    TR1 wrote:Russian officials keep harping about 8 Boreiis by 2020.

    That says all you really need to know.

    How unrealistic is this number? 3 are complete, 3 are already under construction. Combined they represent 75% of the intended Borey number in 2020.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:03 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Russian officials keep harping about 8 Boreiis by 2020.

    That says all you really need to know.

    How unrealistic is this number? 3 are complete, 3 are already under construction. Combined they represent 75% of the intended Borey number in 2020.

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t46p285-project-955-borei

    Scroll down to see our discussion on the topic.

    It is annoying to see the 8 by 2020 line repeated over and over, when it is clearly not true.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:58 am

    It's not about whether the production is going to stop or not. It's about whether or not the official estimates by the Russian officials were realistic back in 2010/11.

    Of course they were realistic, they were based on the information available and other plans in place at the time.

    3 years ago most people would have bet money that France would have had the first Mistral class carrier ready for Russia last november... it was ready but was not handed over for reasons not really forseeable when the contracts were signed.

    Now that we have entered 2015, we can see that many of those estimates were wrong. Therefore target of 50-70% of what was estimated a few years earlier, is more realistic now.

    Reasonable to whom?

    I prefer the Russian shipbuilders and military to release the plans and estimates as they have better information than bloggers and forum experts.

    So the engine issue is not relevant here. What's relevant is to see how the Russian officials where hyping up their "production numbers", which won't be met by 2020.

    So what you are saying is that it is the fact that they will probably have gotten their estimates wrong is the important thing... not why they might have gotten it wrong.

    Will there be public trials, or just quiet executions? Rolling Eyes


    While I do understand that technical problems might occur underway, it's interesting to see how much all procurements are delayed and by how much.

    That is why it is called planning and management... you create plans with the best information available at the time, but over time you review the plans based on any new information and then either change the plan or change the management.

    A good example was S-400 production which was found to be too slow to manage domestic and potential export production so extra production facilities not part of the original plan were created.

    I am sure you will jump up and down and say the first plan was therefore a failure, but that is just normal management. Rolling Eyes

    Current aircraft carrier should have been refurbished long time ago, but it still isn't.

    Because they obviously decided they wanted to keep using it.

    Speculation either way is pointless... it might be that they wanted to upgrade it with something that is not ready yet, or they might not have dry dock space available, or political reasons might have kept it in the water... we have no way of knowing.

    Mistral LPDs won't be delivered, unless Marine Le Pen wins French elections in 2017.

    Even if she does win they will both be very late by then and all the ship builders will have been tried and executed... Rolling Eyes

    It is annoying to see the 8 by 2020 line repeated over and over, when it is clearly not true.

    It depends on your standard of English... they planned to have 8 by 2020 and that is true.

    Whether they get 6 or 10 wont be known till 2020. Rolling Eyes

    Whining about it wont change anything. Twisted Evil
    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:16 am

    Damn. Engine of frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" burned out due to a fault management system
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:23 am

    George1 wrote:Damn. Engine of frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" burned out due to a fault management system

    That happened earlier- they replaced it with the engines from Kasatonov, they are being repaired while Kasatonov is being fitted out.
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    Post  Viktor Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:40 pm

    Very Happy

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 17 GmNnpLm
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    Post  Mike E Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:43 pm

    Viktor wrote:Very Happy

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 17 GmNnpLm
    Looking good!  russia
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    Post  George1 Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:24 pm

    Russian Navy will soon receive three Project 22350 frigates
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    Post  chicken Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:04 am

    How credible is this as a source? I'm pretty sure they just picked up things from the internet, probably someone knows something about the magazine?

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 17 SBJ3sDQ
    https://i.imgur.com/SBJ3sDQ.jpg


    Last edited by chicken on Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:08 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : aspect ratio 2x)
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:53 am

    Utterly wrong about SAMs.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:01 am

    Utterly wrong about SAMs.

    Would be consistent with the land based missiles, where a "tube" can either hold one large S-400 missile or four smaller 9M96 based S-350 missiles.

    Perhaps the SAM vertical launch system on Corvettes are shorter and don't allow the longer missiles and are therefore limited to 9M96 and Morfei, but larger vessels will almost certainly have the large S-400 missiles (and the sensors to use them).
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    Post  chicken Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:53 am

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 17 Z9JdiXQ

    Can anyone ID these?

    Found it in one of TR1's post.
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    Post  Werewolf Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:54 am

    S-300 size i would guess.

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