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    Project 885: Yasen class

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    GarryB
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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:54 pm

    Actually I would say the opposite... 8 Boreis were in the budget and while they are not cheap they will allow the retirement of rather less capable SSBNs.

    the PAK DA will be subsonic and the advantage of having 100 PAK DAs instead of 80 odd Bears and 20 odd Blackjacks will be very significant... and while the PAK DA likely wont be as cheap to operate at the Bear they will likely be cheaper than the Tu-160s and having one type will save a lot of money too.


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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually I would say the opposite... 8 Boreis were in the budget and while they are not cheap they will allow the retirement of rather less capable SSBNs.
    What would've it been the problem with modernising the akulas to fire bulavas which would be much cheaper than building from scratch?

    the PAK DA will be subsonic and the advantage of having 100 PAK DAs instead of 80 odd Bears and 20 odd Blackjacks will be very significant... and while the PAK DA likely wont be as cheap to operate at the Bear they will likely be cheaper than the Tu-160s and having one type will save a lot of money too.
    what does that have to do with what I've said?

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually I would say the opposite... 8 Boreis were in the budget and while they are not cheap they will allow the retirement of rather less capable SSBNs.

    the PAK DA will be subsonic and the advantage of having 100 PAK DAs instead of 80 odd Bears and 20 odd Blackjacks will be very significant... and while the PAK DA likely wont be as cheap to operate at the Bear they will likely be cheaper than the Tu-160s and having one type will save a lot of money too.

    I believe the PAK DA's will also replace the Tu-22M's in Russian service (both navy and airforce) as well.  100 - 150 PAK DA's should be more than enough to replace these other old birds, with some Tu-22M3M's in active service as well.

    Somewhere I read that it would end up as 10 boreis but 8 - 10 of them is good. They would be able to strike even within Russian waters, to nearly anywhere and thus having more diesel electric subs to protect them within their own waters will work just fine.

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:31 am

    What would've it been the problem with modernising the akulas to fire bulavas which would be much cheaper than building from scratch?

    Akulas carry 20 missiles as standard... even with just 5 warheads per missile that is 100 warheads per vessel... with the new start treaty limiting both sides to 1,200 warheads each that means 400 warheads per service... why have three salvagable old Akulas with 300 missiles and perhaps a single Delta IV class with 16 missiles with 8 warheads makes it 428 warheads for four subs... of two very different types that are old and are getting more expensive to maintian.

    It makes rather more sense to spread your missiles across 8 boats... it means the west has to find and destroy more subs before they can launch their missiles.

    what does that have to do with what I've said?

    Having an SSBN fleet of new build Boreis will be cheaper to operate and man because they will all be very much alike... unlike a mixed fleet of Delta IVs Delta IIIs, and a couple of Boreis.

    I believe the PAK DA's will also replace the Tu-22M's in Russian service (both navy and airforce) as well. 100 - 150 PAK DA's should be more than enough to replace these other old birds, with some Tu-22M3M's in active service as well.

    Quite right, which makes them cheaper by increasing production runs... the Tu-22M3 has the roles of theatre strike and SEAD and naval attack.


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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:06 pm

    I don't think Russia should remove from service ever the Tu-95 bear.. even after
    PAk-DA enters service in big numbers..  Instead they should upgrade its electro mechanical
    devices to be more strong against nuclear attacks and EMP blast and keep them loaded with
    Sensors to monitor and spy enemy coastal defenses.  that is to carry no weapons.. (albeit not telling that anyone but still maintaining the option to carry nukes.. if they need it) and carry advanced spy sensors and optics to monitor deep inside enemy territory.  And enhance the armor.. make the plane very strong and resistant to missile attacks.
    So it takes more than one missile.. ideally 4 or 5 to take it down. and make it bullet proof up to 30mm gun fire in most important part. with refueling capabilities for one small plane escort. in other words turn the Tu-95 into a flying armored fortress ,that is only mission is to spy from close distance ,take a lot of damage before falling in case of attacked and allow the stealth escorts to remain hidden with the capability to fight back or escape.  with strong network long distance communications.  Reason for that.. is that Russia can send Pak-DA or Pak-FA withing a radar distance of the Bear and if the Bear is attacked.. lets say someone start firing cannons or missiles at the bear ,it will have enough time to warn the pilots of Pak-FA and Pak-FA near ,of what is happening ,that they are at war ,allowing the Russian stealth planes enough time to ask for guidance their superiors either fire a missile while remaining hidden to the hostile aggressor or simply escape and send rescue team to the pilot and use the incident
    for a UN resolution condemning the attack... Cool

    Politics is very very important at the times of war.. and effectively Russia can provoke a Revolution in US cities without firing a shot by proving that US attacked them..and give an ultimatum ,that any other attack will result in war. Cool That will create millions of protest in US cities condemning the shot down an unarmed Plane of the 50's of Russia. Cool

    So russia will lose nothing , neither its power image ,neither advance technology ,neither the pilot and US will lose everything.. The government actions will be rejected nation wide. and Russia will have a green light to retaliate USA while maintaining the upper hand in the world image.. and legitimate defending itself.. and US condemned for its aggression..


    That way the TU-95 can become like a big shield and the eyes of any stealth plane of Russia at radar distance flying near the coast of alaska and california. The bear can also be equipped with mini portable wing gliders inside ,(jet man like) ..so if the pilots needs to eject the plane they can also move away of US Coast and fall in safe place .

    The idea here is that Russia will not lose a expensive stealth plane.. and avoid all the propaganda of the enemy of how they lost one.. and at the same time not losing a single pilot ,even if the plane attacked by a missile and have the opportunity to safely shut down the F-22
    intercepting the plane.. and neither lose the valuable information of the communication the Bear will be receiving of the electronics of the F-22 used to attack the plane. or the radars signals on the ground they detected. for a future jamming.

    The idea is similar to American Football .. you get a strong man in front to take all the punishment and the real players that will score a point can hide from the view of others using
    the strong big player leading the charge. In this case.. The bear will be just the shield of the stealth planes ,the eyes and the ones that will allow the stealth planes to advance safely and never be in interception range of any enemy plane.

    Allowing your stealth planes to remain hidden even from Visual view ,while at the same time being in range of combat to any enemy strategic location  is a big advantage..and the BEAR will shield /and jam any radars that are trying to locate PAK-DA or PAK-FA near. No stealth plane ever lost , no pilot killed even if attacked the bear and lots of valuable information recorded and passed to the stealth planes with all active radars and communications off.

    All said you cannot have stealth planes in times of peace flying along the coast of any enemy territory ,allowing them to record your signals and your electronic emissions and know everything about how your plane looks in radar at close distance..that very valuable information the enemy should not have ever.. until war time.. and having your enemy recording in camera your plane while is intercepted ,could also serve for a lot of propaganda about how "un-stealthy" are your planes that can be intercepted.


    People have no idea how important in Politics and public opinion in times of war.. this is why the European media and US media.. use the world.. "Russia agression" Russia agression and Russia agression to ukraine. on and on an on. to brainwash american and europeans and make them believe Russia is the aggressor in Ukraine... So that any attack of Ukraine to Russia will be justified.. IF US goes attack Russia a Tu-95 in international airspace..it will create a major outrage in americans ,demanding Obama to step down for provoking a war with Russia. Cool
    But if Russia is the one that shot down and american plane in international airspace it could be
    the opposite and Unite Americans behind Obama or who ever is president.. and even make Putin to lose some support in Russia.. this is the most dangerous thing for Russia.. that could happen. to lose the public opinion.. even more dangerous than losing a plane or warship. Losing a stealth plane for doing something illegal ,like attacking a nation that have done nothing you ,will be terrible for that nation , not only their image of technological superiority will be lost..
    F-117 anyone? and people makes jokes.. but also the risk of major unrest or revolution in that country will be very high ,specially if public opinion about that government ,like it is the obama administration was already bad.

    So this is the reason media is so important ,and the west is creating news how Russia will invade Europe ,and Lithuane telling everyone how to prepare in case Russian invade them..
    to create an ambient of panic on the population ,and of distrust against Russia... while European rusophobic nations and americans are seeking to do.. is to get their population support ,of the total isolation of Russia and justify the militarization of Russian borders.
    Justify the buy of more patriotic energy.. lol1 from Americans at double the price and to stop buying natural gas from Russia. Smile

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:02 am

    The Bears are excellent aircraft, but have had their day.

    Keep some in reserve would be expensive and what would you use them for?
    The PAK DA in theatre attack mode will have the capability to carry a lot of ordinance.

    There is likely not much even an upgraded Bear could do that a PAK DA could not... So I would just make a few more PAK DAs.


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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:29 am

    The Bears will be around for another 20 years according to various officials

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  zg18 on Thu May 28, 2015 11:53 pm

    Severodvinsk



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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 29, 2015 10:09 pm

    Before shutdown of MP.net Artjomh mentioned something abou plans for ¨economy sized¨ SSN to produce more new SSNs. Any news with this regard?

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  George1 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:34 pm

    Russia to complete building 7 Yasen class nuclear subs after 2023 — design bureau

    According to previous reports, the state armaments program for the period until 2020 envisaged construction of 8 Yasen class submarines

    PARK PATRIOT (Moscow region), June 16. /TASS/. The project to build a series of 7 Yasen class nuclear submarines will be completed after 2023, CEO of the St. Petersburg-based Malakhit Marine Engineering Design Bureau Vladimir Dorofeyev told TASS on Tuesday.

    According to previous reports, the state armaments program for the period until 2020 envisaged construction of 8 Yasen class submarines. In addition, Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy Viktor Chirkov said that after that the series would be continued.

    "In accordance with the state armaments program, the project to build a series of 7 submarines will be completed after 2023," Dorofeyev said.

    The Yasen class multipurpose nuclear submarines were developed by the Malakhit Design Bureau. The first submarine of the class - the Severodvinsk, which was laid down in 1993, went into service within operational testing with the Russian Navy in late 2013.

    The Russian Defense Ministry is set to continue the rearmament program in the armed forces this year. Infographics by TASS

    In 2012, the Severodvinsk fired the newest supersonic cruise missile five times. The submerged submarine fired the newest supersonic cruise missile at a surface target from the White Sea in five successive successful launches as part of the Calibre rocket system tests.

    The Severodvinsk is the first in the Graney class (Yasen in Russian classification) of nuclear powered attack submarines. Severodvinsk is the 131st nuclear submarine built by Sevmash Shipyard for the Navy. Vessels of the Yasen class will be the world’s stealthiest submarines. They will have a maximum speed of 16 knots surfaced and 31 knots submerged. They will be 119m long, 13.5m wide and 9.4m high. According to Russia’s Naval Doctrine, submarines of this class will become the main multipurpose nuclear vehicles in the Navy.


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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  George1 on Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:55 am

    Russia to Receive Fifth-Generation Nuclear Submarine by 2020


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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:10 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia to Receive Fifth-Generation Nuclear Submarine by 2020



    Pls check my post (950) and interview with Chirkov, indeed he mentioned that Severmash  got order to prepare capacities for Vgen sub as well as design work started but nothing abut dates.

    Sputnik for whatever reason provides only one source - Diplomat  What a Face  like Soviet press quoted  Goebbels bulletins  What a Face  but admiral Chirkov said nothing like that if I did not miss anything.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p945-russian-navy-status-news


    George1 wrote:Russia to complete building 7 Yasen class nuclear subs after 2023 — design bureau


    This makes sense that cheaper V gen subs will take over after say 2025.



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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  max steel on Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:29 pm

    So GD you're yasen class subs are not fifth gen subs according to russians . Its 4+ Gen . Have they decided any name for their 5th class sub ? MEanwhile usa is looking to divert funds in order to replace its ohio class ssbn sub , they haven't released any new sub design yet .

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Austin on Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:02 pm

    Interview with Gennady general director of JSC "SPMDB" Malachite "Vladimir DOROFEEV.

    http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2015-06-26/12_malahit.html

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  rambo54 on Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:56 am

    Where is the homebase of this ship? Zapadnaja Litsa? Nerpicha? Or Ara Bay? Thanks

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  artjomh on Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:59 pm

    rambo54 wrote:Where is the homebase of this ship? Zapadnaja Litsa? Nerpicha? Or Ara Bay? Thanks

    Zapadnaya Litsa, Guba Lopatkina, Zaozersk. They've put it in the 11th SUBDIV with the 949A's and the 671RTMK's.

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  rambo54 on Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:01 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    rambo54 wrote:Where is the homebase of this ship? Zapadnaja Litsa? Nerpicha? Or Ara Bay? Thanks

    Zapadnaya Litsa, Guba Lopatkina, Zaozersk. They've put it in the 11th SUBDIV with the 949A's and the 671RTMK's.
    Thanks artjomh! Thats what I expected. Do you know whether the 671RTMKs are really operational any more?

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  artjomh on Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:44 pm

    rambo54 wrote:Thanks artjomh! Thats what I expected. Do you know whether the 671RTMKs are really operational any more?

    They certainly are. K-138 fired a cruise missile last December during post-refit exercises, and there is no information that other 3 are slated for decommissioning.

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  George1 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:07 pm

    Russian Navy to get 2nd Yasen class nuclear sub one year behind schedule — source

    Originally, the Russian Navy was to receive the sub in 2017

    MOSCOW, September 29. /TASS/. The Russian Navy will receive the Kazan multipurpose nuclear submarine, the first submarine of the upgraded Project 885M Yasen-M class one year behind the schedule - in 2018, a source in the military-industrial complex told TASS on Tuesday.

    "Under the contract, the Kazan sub is to be delivered to the Navy in 2017, but now it is clear that this deadline will not be met. The Navy will receive this nuclear submarine only in 2018," the source said.

    According to him, the reason for another delay is "the novelty of the project." "The head boat is always built much longer than a series one," said the source. "In addition, the industry capacity, including in terms of import substitution, are insufficient, as the Kazan sub should have exclusively Russian-made electronic equipment and other ‘stuff.’"

    Meanwhile, the CEO of the Sevmash shipyard that is building the Kazan submarine, Mikhail Budnichenko, told reporters this summer that the submarine would be delivered to the customer in 2017.

    The head boat of Project 855 - the Severodvinsk - was received by the Russian Navy in 2014. The second Yasen class submarine has been laid down under the modernised project, the same as the Novosibirsk and the Krasnoyarsk subs in 2013 and 2015.

    The Yasen class fourth-generation multipurpose nuclear submarines have surface displacement of 8,600 tonnes and submerged displacement of 13,800 tonnes. They have the maximum diving depth of 600 metres with submerged speed of about 30 knots. The Yasen-class submarines may carry as many as 30 torpedoes. Unlike most Soviet submarine designs, the Yasen-class boats do not make use of a double-hull-instead it has hybrid design with a lighter structure over the vessel’s pressure hull. Another unique feature for a Russian vessel is that it incorporates a spherical bow sonar called the Irtysh-Amfora for the first time. As a result, Severodvinsk has its torpedo tubes located at about mid-ship like U.S. submarines. The vessel has eight torpedo tubes, four of which are 650mm tubes while the rest are 533mm tubes. The Yasen class submarines are armed with the Oniks and Kalibr cruise missiles as well as homing torpedoes.


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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:09 pm

    Figured this was gonna happen. Import substitution doesnt happen in a day or even a year.

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  artjomh on Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:04 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Figured this was gonna happen. Import substitution doesnt happen in a day or even a year.

    Kazan doesn't use any Ukrainian components, genius.

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:06 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Figured this was gonna happen. Import substitution doesnt happen in a day or even a year.

    Kazan doesn't use any Ukrainian components, genius.

    Were any western components used?
    Import substitution is about replacing Ukrainian and Western components.

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:30 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Figured this was gonna happen. Import substitution doesnt happen in a day or even a year.

    Kazan doesn't use any Ukrainian components, genius.

    budget or technical difficulties then? They mentioned difficulties but for press might be another story.

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:35 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Figured this was gonna happen. Import substitution doesnt happen in a day or even a year.

    Kazan doesn't use any Ukrainian components, genius.

    Didnt say anything about ukrainian components. And that is what the article stated about import substitution. Asshole.

    According to him, the reason for another delay is "the novelty of the project." "The head boat is always built much longer than a series one," said the source. "In addition, the industry capacity, including in terms of import substitution, are insufficient, as the Kazan sub should have exclusively Russian-made electronic equipment and other ‘stuff.’"

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  artjomh on Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:36 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    artjomh wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Figured this was gonna happen. Import substitution doesnt happen in a day or even a year.

    Kazan doesn't use any Ukrainian components, genius.

    Were any western components used?
    Import substitution is about replacing Ukrainian and Western components.

    No.

    That was the original (supposedly ONLY) difference between Severodvinsk and Kazan. All submarines starting with Kazan got only indigenous components. This change was waaaay before the Ukraine adventure. Kazan was laid down in 2009, for people who don't remember.

    This is not a post-2014 change. This is how it was planned from the start.

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