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    Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:33 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Wonder how you guys would react if we had a bunch of people here from Poland, Baltic states, Finland, etc... calling for Russians to be mass-murdered and Russia to be broken up due to past transgressions and imperialism against their countries in the 19th century or WW2 or whatever.

    Please don't make this forum into a cesspool for your filth.

    Ehmm, hello? Have you been reading Internet at all since it was invented?

    That is EXACTLY what they are calling for 24/7.

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    Post  Acheron on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:34 pm

    You know, what I fail to understand is the reasoning behind Erdogan's assessment at the start of the Syrian mess which led to him practically destroying all relations with Syria, and starting to support Sunni islamist radicals and calling for the head of Assad? Prior to this whole Syrian mess, the diplomatic relations b/w Syria and Turkey were excellent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria%E2%80%93Turkey_relations#History), and were only getting better. What reason could there be to suddenly throw all this diplomatic investment into the rubbish heap and effectively become the enemy of Syria? As far as I know, no anti-Turkish coup happened in Syria and Assad wasn't attacking the torkomans (unlike Ukraines recent actions). Heck, if Turkey actually supported Assad from the very beginning, Assad would be practically eating out of Erdo's hands by now for saving him from KSA. In such a scenario, if the Turks would have offered more assistance than Iran, it would have been likely that Syria would have left Iran's sphere of influence for Turkey. The interesting thing is, Erdo managed to sell this massive schizophrenia in his foreign policy to most of the population of Turkey.


    Last edited by Acheron on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Dima on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:37 pm

    Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter  - Page 10 CUqsj43UwAABOX8
    Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter  - Page 10 CUqsj5CUkAEPgF4
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    Hassan Ridha ‏@sayed_ridha 4h4 hours ago
    #RuAF #Russia #Syria
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:38 pm

    Acheron wrote:You know, what I fail to understand is the reasoning behind Erdogan's assessment at the start of the Syrian mess which led to him practically destroying all relations with Syria, and starting to support Sunni islamist radicals and calling for the head of Assad? Prior to this whole Syrian mess, the diplomatic relations b/w Syria and Turkey were excellent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria%E2%80%93Turkey_relations#History), and were only getting better. What reason could there be to suddenly throw all this diplomatic investment into the rubbish heap and effectively become the enemy of Syria? As far as I know, no anti-Turkish coup happened in Syria and Assad wasn't attacking the torkomans (unlike Ukraines recent actions). Heck, if Turkey actually supported Assad from the very beginning, Assad would be practically eating out of Erdo's hands by now for saving him from KSA. The interesting thing is, Erdo managed to sell this massive schizophrenia in his foreign policy to most of the population of Turkey.


    It dates the Killing of Hariri.

    There was short feud but after it calmed down in surface. Erdogan former movement was behind a lot of Islamic charities that mined Syria.
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    Post  Fred333 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:41 pm

    Acheron wrote:You know, what I fail to understand is the reasoning behind Erdogan's assessment at the start of the Syrian mess which led to him practically destroying all relations with Syria, and starting to support Sunni islamist radicals and calling for the head of Assad? Prior to this whole Syrian mess, the diplomatic relations b/w Syria and Turkey were excellent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria%E2%80%93Turkey_relations#History), and were only getting better. What reason could there be to suddenly throw all this diplomatic investment into the rubbish heap and effectively become the enemy of Syria? As far as I know, no anti-Turkish coup happened in Syria and Assad wasn't attacking the torkomans (unlike Ukraines recent actions). Heck, if Turkey actually supported Assad from the very beginning, Assad would be practically eating out of Erdo's hands by now for saving him from KSA. In such a scenario, if the Turks would have offered more assistance than Iran, it would have been likely that Syria would have left Iran's sphere of influence for Turkey. The interesting thing is, Erdo managed to sell this massive schizophrenia in his foreign policy to most of the population of Turkey.

    I debated this with a pro-AKP/Erdogan Turkish friend of mine and he thinks it boils down to Erdogan's personality: Assad turned him down to negotiate an end to the uprising in the beginning of the conflict, and he took it personally and henceforth launched the Turkish meddling effort. Even said friend thinks Erdogan made a mistake there.
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    Post  Kimppis on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:42 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Wonder how you guys would react if we had a bunch of people here from Poland, Baltic states, Finland, etc... calling for Russians to be mass-murdered and Russia to be broken up due to past transgressions and imperialism against their countries in the 19th century or WW2 or whatever.

    Please don't make this forum into a cesspool for your filth.

    Ehmm, hello? Have you been reading Internet at all since it was invented?

    That is EXACTLY what they are calling for 24/7.


    Hi.

    Razz

    I think he was talking about this particular forum ("here"), not about the internet as a whole.
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    Post  Mustafa on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:44 pm

    Acheron wrote:You know, what I fail to understand is the reasoning behind Erdogan's assessment at the start of the Syrian mess which led to him practically destroying all relations with Syria, and starting to support Sunni islamist radicals and calling for the head of Assad? Prior to this whole Syrian mess, the diplomatic relations b/w Syria and Turkey were excellent , and were only getting better. What reason could there be to suddenly throw all this diplomatic investment into the rubbish heap and effectively become the enemy of Syria? As far as I know, no anti-Turkish coup happened in Syria and Assad wasn't attacking the torkomans (unlike Ukraines recent actions). Heck, if Turkey actually supported Assad from the very beginning, Assad would be practically eating out of Erdo's hands by now for saving him from KSA. The interesting thing is, Erdo managed to sell this massive schizophrenia in his foreign policy to most of the population of Turkey.


    Its not that easy. Its complicated. At first we kept out of this until Assad fired rockets over our boarder.

    Evrything now is ruined and i don´t know what can be done to make things better.
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    Post  max steel on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:45 pm

    Turkish Prime Minister: I Gave Order to Shoot Down Russia's Plane Myself


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    Post  Shadåw on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:45 pm

    McInerney: Turkey Shooting Down Russian Plane Was a 'Very Bad Mistake'

    http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/11/24/lt-gen-mcinerney-turkey-shooting-down-russian-plane-was-very-bad-mistake

    Watch before you judge the link people! The former general is very correct!


    Last edited by Shadåw on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:47 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:45 pm

    Mustafa wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    He's being very reasonable and conciliatory.
    I think if Russia downed a Turkish aircraft I wouldn't react differently.

    After so many pages and nearly 2 days of news stream he posted "It looks like  mistake".
    That's not reasonable, that's biased. It most definitely never looked like a mistake, unless we're debating what constitutes a mistake.

    Our authorities made a bad mistake and i feel extremly sorry for this and hope we can find a way to solve this. I understand why people are angry.

    Dude, this is not just about shooting down a plane, this is war and planes get shot down in war. It is perfectly normal and expected.

    But what Turkey did here is something far worse, sneaky, malevolent and dishonorable than just shooting down a plane and if you can't see it, well I can't blame you for being biased, but do not cry foul should such gesture be reciprocated at some point.

    I mentioned before that there are rules and a code both written and unwritten, that soldiers and armies everywhere are expected to honor at some basic level.

    Here is something that might enlighten you:

    Russian pilot: "Turkey does not exist for me anymore"

    http://fortruss.blogspot.rs/2015/11/russian-pilot-turkey-does-not-exist-for.html

    Since today Turkey does not exist for me any more... in any shape or form... I want to explain why... Our planes have been shot down in Afghanistan, Chechnya, South Ossetia, in many conflicts... But they were struck by the enemy, in battle... you shoot at him, he shoots at you, it's understandable... and no matter how bitter the losses, for me, a military pilot, it was normal - there is no war without losses and we, the military, were prepared for this... But today... It is TREACHERY and infinite HYPOCRISY, when you declare yourself an ally in the fight against absolute evil, and yourself stab in the back those who most actively fight against this evil... And do not talk about crossing the border, whether it happened or not, this is all meaningless ... professionals will understand, and will not argue... SNEAK attack from behind a corner... this is it ... not for nothing they sing: "We don't need Turkish shores"...
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    Post  max steel on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:48 pm

    Shadåw wrote:McInerney: Turkey Shooting Down Russian Plane Was a 'Very Bad Mistake'

    http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/11/24/lt-gen-mcinerney-turkey-shooting-down-russian-plane-was-very-bad-mistake

    Watch before you judge the link people! The former general is very correct!


    Forget about the hopeless stupidity of the interviewer. McInerney is a pro. He is diplomatically saying that Turkey screwed up BIG time. Kindergarten stuff. This is from a Pentagon hawk. On Fox. No wonder the producers were telling the interviewer to wrap it up - FAST.
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    Post  Dima on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:49 pm

    Acheron wrote:You know, what I fail to understand is the reasoning behind Erdogan's assessment at the start of the Syrian mess which led to him practically destroying all relations with Syria, and starting to support Sunni islamist radicals and calling for the head of Assad? Prior to this whole Syrian mess, the diplomatic relations b/w Syria and Turkey were excellent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria%E2%80%93Turkey_relations#History), and were only getting better. What reason could there be to suddenly throw all this diplomatic investment into the rubbish heap and effectively become the enemy of Syria? As far as I know, no anti-Turkish coup happened in Syria and Assad wasn't attacking the torkomans (unlike Ukraines recent actions). Heck, if Turkey actually supported Assad from the very beginning, Assad would be practically eating out of Erdo's hands by now for saving him from KSA. The interesting thing is, Erdo managed to sell this massive schizophrenia in his foreign policy to most of the population of Turkey.

    Greed. Money!
    KSA/US/Europe offered him some big wet dreams.

    We cant also decouple it from the Geostrategic games of the US. Also remember that the Syrian 'uprising" happened after Russia announced the reopening/re-energizing the Tartous base for its navy the previous year or more...and that announcement (which I still believe was stupid!) was without any combat capable naval assets to put its weight behind. I personally believe such announcements need to be publicized only after you have kept ready the assets and ready to move in/already in which prevents the other parties from pre-empting to sabotage such basing. Syria "uprising" was also meant to sabotage this new revived Russian presence/influence in the Mediterranean along with other objectives.

    I think Russia learnt from that lesson and that probably reflects in what we saw with their current counter-terrorist deployment to Syria.
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    Post  Acheron on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:53 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Acheron wrote:You know, what I fail to understand is the reasoning behind Erdogan's assessment at the start of the Syrian mess which led to him practically destroying all relations with Syria, and starting to support Sunni islamist radicals and calling for the head of Assad? Prior to this whole Syrian mess, the diplomatic relations b/w Syria and Turkey were excellent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria%E2%80%93Turkey_relations#History), and were only getting better. What reason could there be to suddenly throw all this diplomatic investment into the rubbish heap and effectively become the enemy of Syria? As far as I know, no anti-Turkish coup happened in Syria and Assad wasn't attacking the torkomans (unlike Ukraines recent actions). Heck, if Turkey actually supported Assad from the very beginning, Assad would be practically eating out of Erdo's hands by now for saving him from KSA. The interesting thing is, Erdo managed to sell this massive schizophrenia in his foreign policy to most of the population of Turkey.


    It dates the Killing of Hariri.

    There was short feud but after it calmed down in surface. Erdogan former movement was behind a lot of Islamic charities that mined Syria.

    Interesting, I can't readily see any apparent connection b/w Rafic Hariri and Turkey which might warrant a cooling of relations b/w Syria and Turkey after the assasination. Could you point out any sources that might help me to understand?
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    Post  arpakola on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:54 pm

    Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter  - Page 10 CUnTX31WwAAe9aJ


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    Post  Guest on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:54 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/24/audio-tuaf-warns-ruaf-su-24/

    So...they warned them 10 times or once like this crappy audio shows? Coz i hear them speak in broken english only once. Also they seriously should get better audio recorders this thing has worse quality than throat microphone i used in the army and they were models from 70s.

    For the navigator : zero calls.
    From official Turkish version each 30 seconds for 5 minutes, however, now there's an issue. When did that happened? Before they finally crossed or before and during.
    According to well informed sources: only twice.

    By the protocole i had to follow back in time, we inform unknown aircraft minute or two before they would reach our border at current speed, if they enter our airspace we continue doing so, if its actual fighter or military transport info from VOJIN goes directly to Belgrade Air force Command and from their command room two fighters can be sent to intercept, pilots try their radios if not they go to visual identification coz its possible enemy craft has issues with radio or navigation equipment or maybe pilot has health issues (happens).

    If its some small sport craft or student pilot or light passenger aircraft they are just being tracked whole time in case of emergency. Naturally whole this situation is being monitored by civilian air control too.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:54 pm

    Mustafa wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:
    Mustafa wrote:And what now? Whats your solution to solve this? Yes it looks bad for us and we have done a mistake. I feel sorry for what happened. I already said this.

    Very simple. First you let the Russians retrieve the pilot's body. Secondly your egotripping president stops sending weapons to Syria and stops buying cheap oil from ISIS. Last but not least, you will let the Russian VKS bomb the Turkmens into the stone age.

    The bad things done by a few should not be pushed on all. Look...i agree that killing pilot in parachute was a crime. Evryone in turkey thinks so and i feel ashamed for it. But turkmens are our brothers. Just as russians defend theirs in east ukraine you can understand our feelings regarding that.

    I totally agree that we must push up our efforts against ISIS. We did not enough and we could do much more. I promise you the one who killed pilot did a crime and will be punished but don´t expect us to stand against our brothers.

    I agree with most things you said but there is always a red line when it goes collective against your own people.

    "Russian brothers" in Eastern Ukraine returned every POW back in good health.

    Your brothers murdered the ejected pilot before he even touched the ground. Heroic and honorable....
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:01 pm

    Kimppis wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Wonder how you guys would react if we had a bunch of people here from Poland, Baltic states, Finland, etc... calling for Russians to be mass-murdered and Russia to be broken up due to past transgressions and imperialism against their countries in the 19th century or WW2 or whatever.

    Please don't make this forum into a cesspool for your filth.

    Ehmm, hello? Have you been reading Internet at all since it was invented?

    That is EXACTLY what they are calling for 24/7.


    Hi.

    Razz

    I think he was talking about this particular forum ("here"), not about the internet as a whole.

    Oh, well, my bad in that case.... sorry... respekt
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    Post  arpakola on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:03 pm

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:05 pm

    Mustafa wrote:
    Acheron wrote:You know, what I fail to understand is the reasoning behind Erdogan's assessment at the start of the Syrian mess which led to him practically destroying all relations with Syria, and starting to support Sunni islamist radicals and calling for the head of Assad? Prior to this whole Syrian mess, the diplomatic relations b/w Syria and Turkey were excellent , and were only getting better. What reason could there be to suddenly throw all this diplomatic investment into the rubbish heap and effectively become the enemy of Syria? As far as I know, no anti-Turkish coup happened in Syria and Assad wasn't attacking the torkomans (unlike Ukraines recent actions). Heck, if Turkey actually supported Assad from the very beginning, Assad would be practically eating out of Erdo's hands by now for saving him from KSA. The interesting thing is, Erdo managed to sell this massive schizophrenia in his foreign policy to most of the population of Turkey.


    Its not that easy. Its complicated. At first we kept out of this until Assad fired rockets over our boarder.

    Evrything now is ruined and i don´t know what can be done to make things better.

    Oh c'mon man, in conflicts metal flies over the borders all the time (seen it myself) but it is no reason to go full retard, that excuse would not fly even here in the Balkans after everything...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:06 pm

    max steel wrote:Turkish Prime Minister: I Gave Order to Shoot Down Russia's Plane Myself



    OK Mustafa, you wanted solution to this mess and one just volunteered for the job. You guys can take it from here.
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:32 pm

    This looks to be the start of the economic damage. Not sure if its Kiev stirring it but sounds true.

    A poll conducted by Interfax shows that all leading Russian tour operators have suspended the sale of tours to Turkey at the recommendations of the Foreign Ministry and the Federal Agency for Tourism (Rosturizm).

    "The sale of tour products on the Turkey track has been suspended due to the report issued by Rosturizm on November 24, 2015," Marina Makarkova, head of the public relations department at Coral Travel, said. "Yes, we have suspended sales," Anna Podgornaya, general director of the company Pegas Touristik, said. The press service for the company TUI Russia told Interfax that sales of Turkey as a seasonal destination were completed in October and early booking has not opened yet. The tour companies Biblio Globus and TEZ Tour have reported the suspension of the sale of tours to Turkey on their websites, saying this decision was made due to the statement by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and the recommendation issued by Rosturizm.

    Irina Tyurina, press officer for the Russian Union of Travel Industry, earlier told Interfax there may be up to 10,000 Russian tourists in Turkey now and tour operators had sold 4,000-5,000 tour packages for the period until the New Year holidays.

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Tuesday the Foreign Ministry recommends that Russian citizens refrain from visiting Turkey for tourism purposes because the level of the terrorist threat in Turkey is not lower than in Egypt. Afterwards, Rosturizm recommended that tour operators suspend the sale of tours to Turkey, including through third countries.


    http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/306670.html
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    Post  Firebird on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:33 pm

    Mustafa wrote:
    Acheron wrote:You know, what I fail to understand is the reasoning behind Erdogan's assessment at the start of the Syrian mess which led to him practically destroying all relations with Syria, and starting to support Sunni islamist radicals and calling for the head of Assad? Prior to this whole Syrian mess, the diplomatic relations b/w Syria and Turkey were excellent , and were only getting better. What reason could there be to suddenly throw all this diplomatic investment into the rubbish heap and effectively become the enemy of Syria? As far as I know, no anti-Turkish coup happened in Syria and Assad wasn't attacking the torkomans (unlike Ukraines recent actions). Heck, if Turkey actually supported Assad from the very beginning, Assad would be practically eating out of Erdo's hands by now for saving him from KSA. The interesting thing is, Erdo managed to sell this massive schizophrenia in his foreign policy to most of the population of Turkey.


    Its not that easy. Its complicated. At first we kept out of this until Assad fired rockets over our boarder.

    Evrything now is ruined and i don´t know what can be done to make things better.

    You're just a barefaced fucking liar. You had designs on a new Ottoman Empire. Now you're gonna get crushed.
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    Post  sepheronx on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:36 pm

    Russian tour companies will probably make a killing for domestic flights.  And as well, there are other options for nice travel besides Turkey or Egypt.  Travel to south America like Cuba and Venezuela, those are real Russian partner countries.
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    Post  Guest on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:43 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Russian tour companies will probably make a killing for domestic flights.  And as well, there are other options for nice travel besides Turkey or Egypt.  Travel to south America like Cuba and Venezuela, those are real Russian partner countries.

    Noticed significant increase of Russian tourists here on mountain during summer, not like they lack snow in Russia, however during summer here on mountain there is quite alot of Russians.
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    Post  max steel on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:49 pm

    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/webtv/reports/2015/11/25/Listen-Turkish-officer-issuing-warnings-to-Russian-warplane-.html



    Turkey Releases Alleged Recording Of Warning To Russian Pilot


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