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    Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

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    Karl Haushofer
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:12 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emontional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    Well Russians have no reasons to hate Turks, we had plenty of wars ofc but we left that all in the past.

    The Balkan nations on the other hand have really had some bad history with the Turks, the issues run deep.

    But nonetheless, to say that Russians aren't emotionally reacting to yesterday's events wouldn't be correct. I'm sure we have plenty of our own nutters too.
    I myself want a response but now thinking about it with a clear head, killing even Turkish servicemen in revenge over their next airspace violation would just bring more suffering, I would feel sorry for their families. The best thing to do would be to retaliate economically/politically, and put in measures (Su-30 escorts, overlapping S-400 & S-300F coverage) to make sure that no-one dares to challenge Russian aircraft in vicinity again.
    Isn't that setting a bad precedent? Russian military jets can be shot down without military response!

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Firebird on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:12 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emontional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    I'm Western on my mothers side. Russian on my fathers.
    Living in Britain, I have to tolerate the effluent of Turkish organised crime masquerading as "the nice chap in the kebab/fruit and veg shop". (I've had lots of Muslim friends over the years and still have them).

    Britain also has large numbers of fanatical Muslims and few who integrate. Whereas Russia has a large number of moderate ones (and ofcourse evil ones).

    Its a pr specialist. You need to look at the details of the words. Sinister.
    I'm out.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Shitheads on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:13 pm

    Mustafa wrote:Look...i already said that i´m sorry for what happened and alot of my people share this idea. I find it strange that i must read here genocide comments from people who want our country destroyed and genocide put on us.

    Russia did provocate alot and corssed our boarder multiple times. Our boarder must be protected and i´m sure russia would defend its boarder as well. I already said shooting down the airplane was propably too much.

    We aren´t your enemy and if a mistake was done we will try to compensate it. Unfortunately no life that was lost can be brought back, but we aren´t evil or bad people.

    And please it would be nice if some here scale down their wishs for genocide and mass murder.

    Dont matter. For all i know you are more sorry about you losing profits from your tourist business than anything, since you like billion of others follow the order money. As well that you are afraid of the righteous military response against your military with capability and quantity that the Turkish military dont have. Be it Offensive Cruise/Ballistic Missiles or Defensive ABM/Anti-Air. Your apologies are there to pacify us against considering that a Russian military response against Turkey and/or NATO would be right and appropriate. That we should feel sad or bad for having something as such happen/occur.

    Your sorry wont change that your filthy sunni turks and fellows are massacring yazidis, shias, christians, syrians, egyptians, sensible sunnis and others. Go and kill them. Why should Russians, Shias etc. have to deal with YOUR filth? Dont try to pacify me or others when its you and/or your sunni turks that should fight and bleed them.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:13 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emontional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    Well Russians have no reasons to hate Turks, we had plenty of wars ofc but we left that all in the past.

    The Balkan nations on the other hand have really had some bad history with the Turks, the issues run deep.

    But nonetheless, to say that Russians aren't emotionally reacting to yesterday's events wouldn't be correct. I'm sure we have plenty of our own nutters too.
    I myself want a response but now thinking about it with a clear head, killing even Turkish servicemen in revenge over their next airspace violation would just bring more suffering, I would feel sorry for their families. The best thing to do would be to retaliate economically/politically, and put in measures (Su-30 escorts, overlapping S-400 & S-300F coverage) to make sure that no-one dares to challenge Russian aircraft in vicinity again.
    Isn't that setting a bad precedent? Russian military jets can be shot down without military response!

    Well to that I'll just say - let them try it again.

    We won't leave the area w/o eradicating the Islamist presence there, so they'll have plenty of opportunities for a hat trick/repeat I'd imagine.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:15 pm; edited 4 times in total

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:13 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emontional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    Zg18/me/marat are from the Balkans, I was mad yesterday, but we didn't start this "kebab" bs. However when Putin said what he said, that was immensely more inflammatory than what some are saying here. He called Turkey a Terrorist Supporter and this attack a stab in the back.


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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  iraqidabab on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:15 pm

    Turkey is the major reason Syria is burning, Turkey is the reason IS has grown. Under Erdogan Turkey has become a bigger terror sponsor then Saudi Arabia.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:17 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emontional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    Zg18/me/marat are from the Balkans, I was mad yesterday, but we didn't start this "kebab" bs. However when Putin said what he said, that was immensely more inflammatory than what some are saying here. He called Turkey a Terrorist Supporter and this attack a stab in the back.


    You're Albanian aren't you supposed to be siding with the Turks? pirat

    (don't know Albanian history BTW, so don't kill me if I'm wrong)

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Khepesh on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:17 pm

    Lavrov made some interesting comments. He said that Stoltenberg's statement yesterday was not agreed by members and there was "hot argument" about Turkey. Before Stoltenberg spoke I said NATO would back Turkey 100% and was surprised that what was said was rather low key, but now we know why. I think a thank you to those NATO members who did not kow tow to Washington, probably Greece and Slavic countries as the others have their heads fully in America's ass. Also what Lavrov said about the circumstances of the shoot down, no different to what has been all over the networks since yesterday, but from him it confirms pre determination on the part of Turkey, and so a deliberate act of war. A formal war between Russia and Turkey will not happen of course, but Turkey must now be seen as an active enemy country engaging in blatant acts of war using conventional and terrorist forces. Those governments that call for "de-escalation" are governments that do not hold back when they themselves are attacked, and this includes France, and their words are used toilet paper, as they always are.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  ult on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:25 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emotional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    No. I am Russian living in Russia. And I think Turkey should be destroyed and split. That is one of the most not emotional things I can say.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:27 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Lavrov made some interesting comments. He said that Stoltenberg's statement yesterday was not agreed by members and there was "hot argument" about Turkey. Before Stoltenberg spoke I said NATO would back Turkey 100% and was surprised that what was said was rather low key, but now we know why. I think a thank you to those NATO members who did not kow tow to Washington, probably Greece and Slavic countries as the others have their heads fully in America's ass. Also what Lavrov said about the circumstances of the shoot down, no different to what has been all over the networks since yesterday, but from him it confirms pre determination on the part of Turkey, and so a deliberate act of war. A formal war between Russia and Turkey will not happen of course, but Turkey must now be seen as an active enemy country engaging in blatant acts of war using conventional and terrorist forces. Those governments that call for "de-escalation" are governments that do not hold back when they themselves are attacked, and this includes France, and their words are used toilet paper, as they always are.

    To bolded part:

    No one expects direct war with Turkey.

    On the other hand... Turkey's friends and brothers are fair game: all kinds of terrorists (from uber-moderate to uber-radical) will face the wrath of the Russians.

    In addition, Sultan Aliev in Azerbaijan is not feeling too comfortable now.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Fred333 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:28 pm

    Here in Dutchieland reaction is like 50-60 %: Turks are terrorist supporters, and they showed their hand with this attack. Get them out of EU negotiations and NATO, etc.
    20-30%: ah meh a case of evil vs evil
    10-20%: yay Turks, revenge for MH17 downing!

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Shitheads on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Shouldn't this be rather taken as NATO shooting down a Russian plane and killing its personal? As such, Russia has the righteousness to strike back against NATO countries and its personal?

    Also, what do you think Russia should do? Escalate and strike one of their air force bases maybe? That would be quite direct and decisive, but not that grand and lasting tho i think.

    There is no benefit to Russia in killing Turkish pilots, but clearly they must now see Turkey as a supporter of its opponents in Syria and treat them as such.

    I rather suspect cooperation with Turkey will grind to a halt... Turkey is of course entitled to its own interests and they clearly do not coincide with Russian interests in the region... but then Russia should not support the Turkish economy either as that is now not in their interests... perhaps pipelines can take different routes...

    Sorry, but i dont agree. The Turks, NATO have just killed 3 ppl part of the Russian military brotherhood. I would think that certain ranking personal want blood and not make this look as if the Turks or NATO can get away with killing Russian service personal without taking losses themselves. I see Turkeys action similar to that of a person in a gang. Cocky believing and thinking that the other person is an idiot who would simply lie down let it take it.

    Russia has the offensive capability to strike Turkish bases, while the Turkish defensive capability are limited. Isnt that so? With the cancellation of HQ-9?

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Acheron on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:31 pm

    Firebird wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Firebird wrote:
    Mustafa wrote:Look...i already said that i´m sorry for what happened and alot of my people share this idea. I find it strange that i must read here genocide comments from people who want our country destroyed and genocide put on us.

    Russia had similar events with much greater desaster. MH17 for example or the shot down of the korean 747. Things like this happen and it is sad when such things happen. I believe that our nations will figure this out.

    Russia did provocate alot and corssed our boarder multiple times. Our boarder must be protected and i´m sure russia would defend its boarder as well. I already said shooting down the airplane was propably too much.

    We aren´t your enemy and if a mistake was done we will try to compensate it. Unfortunately no life that was lost can be brought back, but we aren´t evil or bad people.

    And please it would be nice if some here scale down their wishs for genocide and mass murder.

    This is clearly an MP troll or some such nut.

    So you want "your border" or rather Syrian territory overrun with your own ISIS terrorists?

    Anyone who flies NEAR to Turdkey defeating ISIS needs to be killed?

    Hope your terrorist joke of a "country" is lying in rubble pretty soon.

    Will you lay off the guy? Jeez

    He makes a fair point, that Turkey warned before and had the right to protect its airspace.
    He agrees too that the action taken was way out of line.

    Of course the wider context is important here; Erdogan was mad at Russia not for crossing Turkey's airspace, but for liquidating his pet Islamists in the Lakatia region; and wanted to enforce a 'no-fly' zone of his own.

    Christ you're as as bad as his shit.
    "Defending your airspace" does NOT mean shooting down Russian planes. THAT is an act of state terror.

    Terdogan was boasting beforehand how he would shoot down Russian planes. And he boasted after how he had no qualms about doing so.

    Even later on, the poster talked about a "final warning" then killing the pilots was acceptable.

    This is a little cunt, most likely working for a Turdkish newspaper, hoping to trip people up, and have juicy quotes to relay to his pro terror puppet masters.

    And more than once, you've gone along with the "Turkey has a right to shoot" bullshit.

    REPEAT:Turkey had NO right to shoot down Russian jets. It CHOSE to, as part of its support of terrorism.

    And remember, how many times has Turdkey invaded Armenia in recent times?HUNDREDS!

    Get your tongue out of the devil's throat!

    FP, you are not right. Minor airspace violations happen every day and this does not automatically provide a legal right to open fire without exhausting all other options beforehand and making sure that the plane is a threat. Heck, over the last year Turkey violated Greek air space around 2500 (yes, 2.5k) times and had its own airspace violated ~100 times. However, in these cases, no shooting happened. Flying parallel to the border while returning to base from a bombing run (i.e. not really a threat) simply does not classify as a serious enough danger to Turkey to warrant shooting it. The story about not being able to tell about the nature of the airplanes is also a tall-tale, since Turkish ground-based radars should have the capability to deduce the country of origin of the planes, not to mention that Syrians do not fly in pairs. Erdogan is basically trying hard to manufacture the legal reason to attack the plane (for the benefit of his fanbois), something he was clearly planning on doing anyway. Heck, we still don't even know if the plane actually violated Turkish airspace since that Turkish diagram (and letter) were released to the media so conveniently and so soon after the shooting (almost like they were prepared), while the Russians were still trying to piece together the entire picture. Also, the Russian radar data does appear to support Russian position.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  zorobabel on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:32 pm

    One thing to be sure, the terrorist supporting scumbag Erdogan has gotten away with his **** yet again.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:33 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emontional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    Zg18/me/marat are from the Balkans, I was mad yesterday, but we didn't start this "kebab" bs. However when Putin said what he said, that was immensely more inflammatory than what some are saying here. He called Turkey a Terrorist Supporter and this attack a stab in the back.


    You're Albanian aren't you supposed to be siding with the Turks? pirat

    (don't know Albanian history BTW, so don't kill me if I'm wrong)

    Just so you know, if an Albanian says to you he's big on Turkey you can cut his balls out because he's a not a living being anymore or has never been in Albania. Turkey has managed the crazy priviledge to buy out a part of the people it has oppressed, raped and massacred over the centuries. Fortunately as a an Old Orthodox family and my ex wifes's family being Bektashi, there's no love for this Turkey. By the way the song of our village is about "Orthodox terrorist" who asks Ottoman commander to move his troops out, because otherwise he'll paint the flag with his blood. And Symbol of the area is Rogue Ottoman commander who'd have a special relationship with the Greeks to the point the Sultan would ask for his head in a platter. Check for Ali Pasha (of Ioannina or Tepelena).


    Yeah siding with the Turks, should win you funny looks at my place. Like saying you're gay or you got Aids.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Acheron on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:44 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    And again as mad as it may make you, I'll repeat it again - we share some of the blame too.

    First of all, that has yet to be proven. Has anyone actually verified that Turkish graph purportedly showing the airplane movements? It doesn't appear to be a direct capture from a radar output screen (unlike the Russian one). So far, the only blame I place on our forces is for not being better prepared for such actions from Turkey (there should have been better countermeasures installed, there should have been escorts, there should have been SAM cover of the area in order to retaliate, etc...).


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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Rodinazombie on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:54 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emontional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    Zg18/me/marat are from the Balkans, I was mad yesterday, but we didn't start this "kebab" bs. However when Putin said what he said, that was immensely more inflammatory than what some are saying here. He called Turkey a Terrorist Supporter and this attack a stab in the back.


    What putin said was not inflammatory, shocking yes because its way more hardline than his normal approach but its no way comparable with some of the bile people have been spewing here. Putin stated a fact, turkey is a terrorist supporter and it certainly is a stab in the back considering turkey is 'supposed' to be fighting terror too. What we see here is a calls for mass murder of turkish civilians, splitting of the country, all out war against turkey. This is far worse than what putin said.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Acheron on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:55 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emontional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    Well Russians have no reasons to hate Turks, we had plenty of wars ofc but we left that all in the past.

    The Balkan nations on the other hand have really had some bad history with the Turks, the issues run deep.

    But nonetheless, to say that Russians aren't emotionally reacting to yesterday's events wouldn't be correct. I'm sure we have plenty of our own nutters too.
    I myself want a response but now thinking about it with a clear head, killing even Turkish servicemen in revenge over their next airspace violation would just bring more suffering, I would feel sorry for their families. The best thing to do would be to retaliate economically/politically, and put in measures (Su-30 escorts, overlapping S-400 & S-300F coverage) to make sure that no-one dares to challenge Russian aircraft in vicinity again.
    Isn't that setting a bad precedent? Russian military jets can be shot down without military response!

    An even worse precedent would be that you can shoot down Russian jets without any response whatsoever. Although I would like a tit-for-tat military response (in an emotional, vigilante kind of way), it might be more beneficial, in the long run, to put a "spoke in the wheel" of Turkey by responding via a concerted effort to dismantle Turkish interests in Syria. That, of course, means that Russian capabilities (and RoE) in Syria need to be beefed up substantially, so that the Russian forces there don't step twice on the same proverbial rake.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Rodinazombie on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:57 pm

    zorobabel wrote:One thing to be sure, the terrorist supporting scumbag Erdogan has gotten away with his **** yet again.

    You think so?

    Russia moves slowly but strikes hard, yet subtle. It hits hard when it talks softly, but its words were extremely harsh after yesterday, so i can only imagine what will be coming turkeys way.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  iraqidabab on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:13 pm

    S-400 deployment in Latakia


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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Erk on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:23 pm

    iraqidabab wrote:S-400 deployment in Latakia


    Wont be much use unless they can convince Turkey to fly across the border into Syria.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Shitheads on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:24 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Lavrov made some interesting comments. He said that Stoltenberg's statement yesterday was not agreed by members and there was "hot argument" about Turkey. Before Stoltenberg spoke I said NATO would back Turkey 100% and was surprised that what was said was rather low key, but now we know why. I think a thank you to those NATO members who did not kow tow to Washington, probably Greece and Slavic countries as the others have their heads fully in America's ass. Also what Lavrov said about the circumstances of the shoot down, no different to what has been all over the networks since yesterday, but from him it confirms pre determination on the part of Turkey, and so a deliberate act of war. A formal war between Russia and Turkey will not happen of course, but Turkey must now be seen as an active enemy country engaging in blatant acts of war using conventional and terrorist forces. Those governments that call for "de-escalation" are governments that do not hold back when they themselves are attacked, and this includes France, and their words are used toilet paper, as they always are.

    Yepp, NATO obviously think its ok to kill Russian service men fighting filthy sunni fanatics. Backing Turkey with Article 5. So much for the War on Terror.

    Fine. They want to scare Russia from righteously retaliating by threatening to use Article 5. I think the idea that Russia should make a military alliance with Iran, Iraq and Syria with Article 5 replica then. Or make em part of CSTO and push the filthy sunni fanatics to the grave and then setup AA complexes near Turkeys border so that when they pass the border by even a km or a few seconds they get fired upon. Question is, are the Iraqis and the Iranians interested in something as such? Because i think they too have a grievance and a lust for vengeance against them with the recent revelations of Erdo & Son. A realization of something as such could also interest Cyprus and Greece i think, given the problems with trespassing that they themselves have with the arrogant Turks. This in self tells how vulnerable and a liability Turkey is.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:26 pm

    Erk wrote:
    iraqidabab wrote:S-400 deployment in Latakia


    Wont be much use unless they can convince Turkey to fly across the border into Syria.
    Does the S-400 range cover Iraq? How about shooting down Turkish jets in Iraq?

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:27 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emotional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    I don't know about Balkan countries but nobody over here is surprised with Turkey's behavior.

    They have never been able to recover from loosing their colonial empire just few decades ago. Their own national identity is more of a comical farce, based on idealistic, nazi-like ideology from a maniac,oh and three industrial-scale Genocides of millions of Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:28 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:It seems that the most hot-headed and emontional Russia-supporters come from the Balkan countries and the actual Russians are a lot less emotional. Is that correct?

    Zg18/me/marat are from the Balkans, I was mad yesterday, but we didn't start this "kebab" bs. However when Putin said what he said, that was immensely more inflammatory than what some are saying here. He called Turkey a Terrorist Supporter and this attack a stab in the back.


    What putin said was not inflammatory, shocking yes because its way more hardline than his normal approach but its no way comparable with some of the bile people have been spewing here. Putin stated a fact, turkey is a terrorist supporter and it certainly is a stab in the back considering turkey is 'supposed' to be fighting terror too. What we see here is a calls for mass murder of turkish civilians, splitting of the country, all out war against turkey. This is far worse than what putin said.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not contesting Turkey's role in ISIS sponsorship. Nope, what I'm saying, that those words were a clear sign that things were going south. When Putin goes out like that, this means that indeed a way or another Turkish citizen were going to pay, in arms or not. And Turkish civilians are being killed by its own government, so there's not much to go worse there. Those civilians and their military arm receiving presents, that's not excluded. I don't like it, but Erdogan made his bed, now he'll wake up with the fleas.

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