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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:10 am

    Seems like even Western media lost its patience about the silence of MH investigation

    https://www.rt.com/news/318051-dutch-media-mh17-lawsuit/

    Three Dutch media companies have filed a joint lawsuit against the country’s Security and Justice Ministry, demanding that it disclose more documents relating to the MH17 catastrophe investigation after the ministry’s refusal to release the information.

    The Netherlands Broadcasting Foundation (NOS); the Dutch subsidiary of the European TV, radio and production company RTL Group; and the Dutch daily Volkskrant have joined forces to appeal the Netherlands Security and Justice Ministry’s refusal to make public “many documents” concerning the Malaysian Airlines MH17 crash in Eastern Ukraine last year, NOS said in a press release.

    The three media companies had previously appealed to the ministry separately, asking it to disclose MH17 investigation data based on the Freedom of Information Law (WOB). The aim of the companies was to bring to light the details of the tragedy, as well as to reconstruct the actions of Dutch officials after the catastrophe.

    The three media companies asked for the reports of ministerial and other official committees that were involved in the MH17 investigation to be released. In response to the media outlets’ request, the ministry reportedly released about 575 documents related to the MH17 case, including the correspondence of the members of the national crisis group that was formed immediately after the tragedy.

    However, the media companies called the result of their requests “disappointing” in statements published on their websites. They said the ministry refused to release many of the MH17-related documents and rendered lots of other documents unreadable by blurring large pieces in them.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:13 am

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:It looks like a Luna. But the problem is that it isn't concealed and that missile goes well beyond the MAZ TEL so it's an export model? The hell would LNR/DNR use an export Luna for?

    Lunas M that i had pleasure seeing here were on Zil 135.

    Yes Zil 135, pointed out R-17, my bad.
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    Post  Khepesh Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:23 am

    Blockade of Crimea has so seriously backfired that the price farmers get for milk has collapsed in Ukraine. In Kherson region most milk production went to Crimea. This seems at face value good news for shoppers as surely the price in the shops will fall, but no, the price in fact rises for dairy products in the shops in order to maintain the profit margins for the middle men, well well....
    Anyway, small and medium size dairy farms in the Kherson region cannot survive with milk prices so low and if the blockade continues much longer they will have to start making workers redundant and slaughtering cows they cannot afford to keep. It's situations like this that breed revolution..... http://antifashist.com/item/blokada-kryma-prevratilas-v-blokadu-hersona-moloko-v-ubytok-korov-na-myaso.html#ixzz3o3Rf1MQ3
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:44 pm

    Quite a way to get attention lol! lol!

    http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/09/poroshenko-russia-is-destabilizing.html

    The Video (in Russian ?) https://youtu.be/11JKyRF7ILw

    Peter Poroshenko today talked to journalists, well how did he talk - there were three bodies nodding their heads, asking questions, to which Poroshenko already had written down the answers. But it didn't smell of journalism, perhaps of alcohol, because Poroshenko said "Russia is destabilizing the situation in the Islamic state".

    Poroshenko: "Nothing will work out. Everyone knows well the role of Russia as a destabilizing factor in the Islamic State, Syria, Ukraine and other places."

    That person called a journalist, instead of drinking water, should have asked: "Where, where is it destabilizing the situation?"

    Poroshenko:

    "In the Islamic state"

    "In the Islamic state"

    No more drinks for him.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:15 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Potential problems in Kiev on Wednesday 14. That day has a number of celebrations, the religious Pokrov, foundation of UPA, Defender of the Fatherland Day and day of Ukranian Cossacks. Pravy Sektor has said they will march in Kiev on Wednesday, presumably with the clowns pretending to be Cossacks as there are no "Ukranian Cossacks", only fantasist actors. Apart from Don Cossacks whose territory stretched into Donbass, the last surviving Cossack Host to inhabit the area temporarily occupied by modern Ukraine was the short lived Novorossiyan Cossack Host who had formed from remnants of Zaporozhian Cossacks who remained when everybody else departed for the Kuban. Novorossiyan Cossacks disbanded in mid 19th Century. I mention that to show how fake "Ukranian" history is.
    http://dnr-news.com/dnr/26219-na-pokrova-v-kieve-gotovyatsya-k-besporyadkam-iz-za-marsha-pravogo-sektora.html
    Its also the day after the MH-17 report and the Russian Buk test on an old Boeing results are published.

    Whatever they say, Monday will be a disappointment for someone.
    Cowboy's daughter
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:40 pm



    for what it's worth, in the globe and mail

    GEORGE PETROLEKAS
    Time is running out for U.S. policy in Syria


    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/time-is-running-out-for-us-policy-in-syria/article26728301/

    George Petrolekas is a fellow with the Canadian Global Affairs Institute. He has served in Bosnia and Afghanistan and has been an adviser to senior NATO commanders.

    The failure of American strategy in Iraq and Syria threatens faith in U.S. leadership. As the situation develops, allies need to exchange frank views without diplomatic niceties or political spin.

    Rather than sustaining what appears to be a failing strategy a wiser course would be to recalibrate and alter course, much as the United States did in Bosnia 20 years ago. There are parallels, ranging from air support to moral support of the Bosnian Muslims. But the U.S. needs to take stock of its present strategy.

    The air campaign against Islamic State, insufficiently resourced from the start, has had limited effect. The Iraqi Army shows no sign of life or effectiveness. Last year, the liberation of Mosul was promised, yet that seems nowhere in sight.

    Recently, a U.S. Congressional report castigated the failure to stem the flow of foreign fighters to IS, including from the U.S. Like moths to a flame, the attraction remains and the financial wherewithal of IS rests untouched.

    About $500-million (U.S.) was spent to train 5,000 anti-IS fighters but instead produced just 60. Fifty-five of them disappeared, leading U.S. General Lloyd Austin to say “only five anti-IS fighters remain.” At $100-million per person, someone needs to be fired.

    On Syria, the U.S maintains a simplistic policy of “Assad must go” without any in-depth plan for what would follow. The presumption is that a rebel government would attain legitimacy. To sustain this fiction, the rebels are painted as moderate, when in fact they are anything but. We forget that the core of President Bashar-al Assad’s support is the Shia/Alawite and Christian minorities in Syria – they will not survive retribution by rebel factions penetrated by extremists. Moderate Sunnis, upon whose support a viable new government might have been built, are now more likely to be found fleeing to Europe. The resulting depopulation of Syria ensures a perilous future.

    The arrival of Russian forces has understandably upset the U.S., but its reaction has been petulant, with Russian actions simplistically painted in a Cold-War-like context. The reaction in U.S. media and by government so far seems to be, “Russia is acting from weakness, acting to distract attention from Ukraine, acting to preserve its naval base, and it’s helping Assad and not striking the IS.” The complaints against Russia are distractions at best; we need to move beyond rhetoric to realpolitik.

    The painful idea that must be faced is that Mr. al-Assad will not be removed by force and opposition groups and neighbouring states must accept that reality. A transition plan that protects minority rights and disarms rebels like the Nusra Front is only possible with Russian co-operation.

    German Chancellor Angela Merkel said last week that it would be possible to end the civil war in Syria only with the help of Russia, and Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said that “perhaps” Mr. al-Assad could be involved in a “transition” to a new Syria.”

    The vacuum of power that Russia fears most would leave IS as best positioned to profit. For many, the unpalatable – a managed transition including Mr. al Assad – is better than the unthinkable: an IS victory.

    But all is not lost. The U.S. could demonstrate remarkable course corrections, as it has many times in its past by turning a focused eye toward realistic objectives.

    In 1995, as the Bosnian conflict raged, the U.S. altered course, promising to commit forces in conjunction with diplomatic wherewithal to resolve the conflict. The United States realized then that if a deal was to be struck, it could not simply support the Bosnian Muslims at the expense of the Bosnian Serbs. The success of a political deal hinged on the credible threat of force against all parties, otherwise Russian-backed Serbs and U.S. backed Muslims would never bend.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  Cowboy's daughter Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:27 pm

    Graham W Phillips ‏@GrahamWP_UK 9h9 hours ago Ukraine

    I got interrogated by UK police for 4 for work as a journalist, now the UK is welcoming over Ukrainian neo-Nazis -

    http://www.ukrainianlondon.co.uk/deputy-speaker-of-the-ukrainian-parliament-andriy-parubiy-open-meeting-23-10-2015/
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:02 pm


    Someone is reading this forum!!! lol1

    BREAKING NEWS:

    1) Winter is coming!

    2) Ukraine needs more money! Razz


    Winter Is Coming. And So Is Ukraine’s Far Right.

    http://news.yahoo.com/winter-coming-ukraine-far-204508814.html

    There’s a reason most revolutions in Eastern Europe begin in the winter, from Russia in 1905 to Ukraine’s Maidan in 2013. Once the cold settles in, a government’s empty promises are laid bare. Over the next several days, forecasters are predicting, the temperature in Ukraine will plunge to freezing. When President Petro Poroshenko looks at the thermometer, he should be worried.

    Ukrainians are seething with anger over the plunging quality of life and the government’s failure to purge the country of oligarchy and corruption, the very issues that ignited the 2013-2014 Maidan uprising in the first place. This is not Kremlin propaganda. A Washington Post article in August spoke of the “sense that last year’s wave of protests delivered little but fresh misery.” A recent Atlantic Council report states that “[i]f the Ukrainian government does not follow through with an ambitious reform agenda, public support for reforms will wane while dissatisfaction will increase, threatening political stability and the country’s successful future.” Even George Soros, a stalwart backer of Kiev, wrote this month that “the general population is increasingly dissatisfied both with the slow speed of reforms and the continued decline in living standards.”

    If Ukraine were a stable country, this mounting public disillusionment would manifest itself through an unseating of the ruling party in the next election or perhaps through a referendum of no confidence in the administration. But Ukraine — fresh off a revolution followed by 19 months of war — is far from stable. Its citizens have more weapons than they do trust in their government. If the average Ukrainian can’t scrape together enough money to feed and heat his family in the brutal Ukrainian winter, he will blame Kiev (and the West) and express his outrage not at the polls, but in the streets.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin is not the only one who would love to see the Poroshenko government fail. Ukraine has an active far-right movement composed of ultranationalist groups, organizations that combine radical political agendas (with racist and homophobic overtones) with sizable paramilitary formations. Some of these groups, such as Svoboda, began as far-right political parties that were on the margins of Ukraine’s politics before Maidan. Others, like Right Sector, were formed out of paramilitary groups of street fighters that merged into a movement during the uprising. As the war against Russia-backed separatists unfolded, these organizations formed volunteer battalions that proved crucial in containing the separatists.

    As with many things in Ukraine, the far right’s numbers, as well as the extent of Kiev’s control over their battalions, remains nebulous. In July, Right Sector’s Dmytro Yarosh was able to call up around 5,000 members for a march in Kiev, though how many of the participants were fighters as opposed to party supporters is unclear. Likewise, the Azov Battalion, which has been banned from receiving U.S. training and weapons by Congress, has been nominally under Kiev’s control when it comes to fighting separatists; where Azov’s loyalty lies when it comes to facing Kiev is an open question.

    What is clear is that these groups are capable of sowing immense chaos and carnage, as was proved on Aug. 31, when grenade-wielding thugs from Svoboda killed four Ukrainian National Guardsmen and wounded 138 others in front of the parliament building in Kiev. This attack was far from the first time that the far right has threatened Kiev or spilled blood: On July 11, Right Sector was involved in a deadly shootout with police in the western Ukrainian town of Mukacheve, and members of several battalions have threatened a coup after the fighting in the east is concluded.

    Up to this point, more or less, the far right and Kiev have shared a common enemy: Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. But as the violence in the eastern regions abates, the ultranationalists — including their affiliated (and heavily armed) battalions — are turning their attention inward. Over the past several months, these groups have been increasingly ratcheting up the pressure on Poroshenko, declaring his administration to be an “internal occupation” and calling, as Right Sector put it, for the “new phase” of the revolution.

    Kiev and the far right are at a stalemate. Poroshenko doesn’t have the power to disband the ultranationalists (the administration’s response to the Aug. 31 bloodshed has been restricted to a handful of arrests), but the far-right factions aren’t able to openly move on Kiev either. For that, they’ll need to have everyday people protesting in the streets. They need another Maidan.

    This is why two narratives are currently battling each other in Ukraine — across op-eds, social media, and news conferences. Poroshenko is exhorting his compatriots to stay calm and look to the future. The far right, meanwhile, is exploiting frustration and anger amid economic hardships and urging people to take to the streets.

    In September, IMF chief Christine Lagarde wrapped up her visit to Kiev by praising reforms carried out by Ukraine as “astonishing” and urging Poroshenko and Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk to stay the course. From a big-picture perspective, Lagarde is correct: Kiev’s accomplishments are remarkable considering that it had inherited a country saddled with debt, paralyzed with corruption, and bleeding from a devastating war with Russian-backed rebels. The fact that Ukraine hasn’t imploded is in itself a testament to both the Ukrainian people and Western aid.

    But the average Ukrainian doesn’t have the luxury of looking at the big picture. Utility tariffs have skyrocketed, as have prices for goods and services and the unemployment rate. The eastern regions are in the middle of a humanitarian crisis, with more than 1.5 million internally displaced people subsisting on the mercy of volunteers and sporadic funding from Kiev’s strained coffers. A July poll showed that only 3 percent of the country is satisfied with the pace of change, while Yatsenyuk, the man responsible for carrying out the IMF’s reforms, has an approval rating of 11 percent.

    Each week brings winter closer, making austerity measures such as reduced social services and raised utility fees bite harder. Meanwhile, the far right’s cry will resonate more and more. Perhaps the clearest indicator of this has come from the way in which some of Ukraine’s bigger parties have taken up ultranationalist talking points while distancing themselves from Poroshenko. In early September, Oleh Lyashko, the leader of the Radical Party, which officially split from Poroshenko’s coalition, denounced the president as Ukraine’s biggest criminal. Poroshenko’s rival Yulia Tymoshenko went even further, telling the Independent that the administration’s unpopular reforms are going to trigger “an uncontrolled uprising that could sweep Ukraine away as a country.”

    This is exactly what the far right needs. Groups like Svoboda function best when they can mix in with crowds, presenting themselves as fighters against corruption and injustice; when a crowd is gathered, any imprudent move on the government’s part will be seen as a move against “the people.” Throngs of protesters are the far right’s fuel, and once they are in place, the country has no shortage of explosives.

    Under the most optimistic scenario, a far-right uprising would greatly destabilize Ukraine; Poroshenko wouldn’t be able to continue implementing IMF reforms if he were busy fending off an armed insurrection in the middle of Kiev. At worst, this would set off a chain of events that would rapidly turn the country into a fractured, failed state of 45 million people in the middle of Europe.

    To give democratic Ukraine the best chance to survive, Washington must minimize the chances of citizens rising up once winter hits. Statements of solidarity aren’t enough. What’s needed are food, clothing, medicine — tangible, visible, and immediate relief, all stamped with “Courtesy of Kiev and the United States” — to ensure that the people of Ukraine continue to believe that they have a positive future with the West.

    This isn’t a novel idea. During the Cold War, the State Department turned it into an art form. From the Berlin Airlift in 1948 to the Russian-language Voice of America broadcasts beamed into the Soviet Union through the 1980s, the United States has a long history of analyzing the situation on the ground, predicting the needs of the population, and acting to win over hearts, minds, and stomachs.

    America’s current Ukraine policy has mostly neglected this kind of aid. That’s a shame. Washington has an opportunity to mitigate what the United Nations describes as an impending humanitarian disaster while combating the destabilizing power of Ukraine’s far-right radicals. It’s an opportunity that shouldn’t be ignored, because if angry, starving people take to the streets of Kiev, the result is likely to be most unpleasant, both for Ukrainian and American interests in the region. Meanwhile, the temperature is continuing to drop.

    Razz cry
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:17 pm


    Something went of in Kiev:

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 6 CQ41KAAUAAAErY2

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    Post  Godric Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:07 pm

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:Graham W Phillips ‏@GrahamWP_UK 9h9 hours ago Ukraine

    I got interrogated by UK police for 4 for work as a journalist, now the UK is welcoming over Ukrainian neo-Nazis -

    http://www.ukrainianlondon.co.uk/deputy-speaker-of-the-ukrainian-parliament-andriy-parubiy-open-meeting-23-10-2015/

    their in describes the UK in a nutshell Geert Wilders is banned from the UK a dutch MP, founder and leader of the Party for Freedom no less and they invite a real Nazi from Ukraine .... f**king priceless
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    Post  Lenny1983 Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:53 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Something went of in Kiev:

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 6 CQ41KAAUAAAErY2


    Is it one of those lost Russian Rockets from the ships in the Caspian Sea? lol! cheers russia welcome
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:07 am


    Hey Lenny, long time no see, good to have you back! thumbsup russia
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    Post  Khepesh Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:33 am

    This is what part of Ukranian media are saying about the blockade of Crimea. Well, really it seems to be a blockade of Kherson as it is only the farmers of Kherson that suffer, as I said yesterday. What is interesting about this article is that it says, ironically, that this blockade could bring about the "People's Republic of Kherson", and that the farmers are on the brink of survival and that if the traditional links between Kherson and Crimea are not restored, then "serious forces" could emerge that wish to restore them. Also, it is now clear that what happened at Kuibishevsky about three days ago and then Kievsky two days ago and the re-emerge of ukrops UAV is now a pattern of slowly building up small incidents, and also at Lugansk. This is not over and, with the elections now aparrently to be held in February and then March, the next move will be from Kiev, and I think it unwise to assume there will be no move.
    http://ukraina.ru/news/20151003/1014456609.html

    Edit: Elections in Donetsk now confirmed for 20 April 2016 http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151010/1028312786/donetsk-local-elections.html
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:18 pm

    Khepesh wrote:This is what part of Ukranian media are saying about the blockade of Crimea. Well, really it seems to be a blockade of Kherson as it is only the farmers of Kherson that suffer, as I said yesterday. What is interesting about this article is that it says, ironically, that this blockade could bring about the "People's Republic of Kherson", and that the farmers are on the brink of survival and that if the traditional links between Kherson and Crimea are not restored, then "serious forces" could emerge that wish to restore them. Also, it is now clear that what happened at Kuibishevsky about three days ago and then Kievsky two days ago and the re-emerge of ukrops UAV is now a pattern of slowly building up small incidents, and also at Lugansk. This is not over and, with the elections now aparrently to be held in February and then March, the next move will be from Kiev, and I think it unwise to assume there will be no move.
    http://ukraina.ru/news/20151003/1014456609.html

    Edit: Elections in Donetsk now confirmed for 20 April 2016 http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151010/1028312786/donetsk-local-elections.html

    Right Sector is there on the blockade??

    Yes, Lenny, it's great to see you back! Very Happy Cool
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    Post  Khepesh Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:15 pm

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:Right Sector is there on the blockade??
    Yes, and seen as a serious problem.
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    Post  Khepesh Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:17 pm

    I said it was ratcheting up day by day. One civilian dead and one wounded by ukrops tank fire into Kievsky district of Donetsk http://dan-news.info/defence/odin-chelovek-pogib-i-odin-ranen-v-rezultate-obstrela-donecka-vsu-minoborony.html

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 6 D558a9b81b53
    franco
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    Post  franco Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:37 pm

    It appears that Ukraine is not the only Oligarchy;

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/11/us/politics/2016-presidential-election-super-pac-donors.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

    affraid
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    Post  Neutrality Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:23 pm

    Not really related to Ukraine but at the same time it is: http://lenta.ru/news/2015/10/10/belarusmaidown/

    Basically the Belarussian border guard arrested 200 armed men from Ukraine trying to get in. They had pneumatic pistols and bats with them. Too much of a coincidence with the upcoming Belarussian elections. Good job for the border guards.
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    Post  Project Canada Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:36 pm

    Neutrality wrote:Not really related to Ukraine but at the same time it is: http://lenta.ru/news/2015/10/10/belarusmaidown/

    Basically the Belarussian border guard arrested 200 armed men from Ukraine trying to get in. They had pneumatic pistols and bats with them. Too much of a coincidence with the upcoming Belarussian elections. Good job for the border guards.

    looks like Ukrops trying to export Maidan to Belarus. this is not a good sign, expect more provocations from these thugs under the request from USIS.
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:47 pm

    You get the impression that Kiev is trying to play chicken with a brick wall.

    LIMA, October 10./TASS/. The finance ministers of Russia and Ukraine reached no agreement on Friday to restructure the $3 billion debt Kiev owes to Moscow, but will maintain the dialogue, Russian Finance Minister Anton Siluanov has said.

    Siluanov and his Ukrainian counterpart Natalia Yaresko met in Lima, Peru, on Friday on the sidelines of the International Monetary Fund [IMF] and the World Bank [WB] semi-annual meetings.

    "We stated our position on the need to repay the debt owed to Russia. The colleagues from Ukraine’s finance ministry said they have no such money in budget and suggested that we participate in its restructuring along with commercial creditors," Siluanov said. "Russia had another position: we are not a commercial creditor, we are a sovereign creditor, that’s why such conditions are unacceptable for us," he told reporters following the meeting.

    The Ukrainian side officially said after the meeting that Yaresko provided details on the deal on restructuring the debt and called on Russia to participate in it. Moscow could accept the invitation until October 29.

    Russian expects Ukraine to repay the debt in full in December this year, Siluanov reiterated on Friday. Yaresko said Kiev was not planning to offer Russia more favorable conditions on repayment of the Eurobond than those worked out by a group of private creditors.
    PapaDragon
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  PapaDragon Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:55 pm


    These guys read my mind... thumbsup


    An optimistic view of Novorossiya's future

    http://fortruss.blogspot.rs/2015/10/an-optimistic-view-of-novorossiyas.html


    “Everything will be ok - Donetsk columnist to ‘Russian Spring’”

    Among residents of the DPR and LPR, panic and rumors have spread in recent times. It’s said that Russia is leaving us, switching to Syria, and now they will put us back in Ukraine.

    Let’s reason logically.

    What will there be after the October 18 (DPR) and November 1 (LPR) elections? The certification of passports, conditional independence, long years of waiting for recognition by the world community, and the situation of “neither war nor peace, with the constant danger of unexpected shelling and the penetration of Ukrainian sabotage-reconnaissance groups as a permanent hassle.

    Prospects of the republics in the conditions of isolation

    Defense is an expensive area, and Donbass can’t pull its own. In order to effectively protect a 500-700 km border with Ukraine, an entire army and serious engineering structures are needed. This is completely unaffordable, as the republics simply have no money.

    Is it possible to do without a full banking service? Yes. But it’s wildly uncomfortable. Citizens and entrepreneurs are suffering. The former don’t have the opportunity to get a loan, and the latter can’t develop business given the modest purchasing capacity of the population. Dooming Donbass to further economic blockade is a path towards degradation. But without recognition by at least several countries, not a single bank will be able to enter Donbass, as its SWIFT will be a cut, without which there will be no ATM’s or terminals in stores.

    Donbass is an industrial region. But our industry can’t develop in the conditions of economic embargo. There is coal trade, but that goes with great difficulties and interruptions. In order to develop engineering, revive the electronic industries and other traditional professions, international connections are needed. In the end, for the republics to go the “fast” path, we are waiting for industrial degradation and a lack of perspectives of development.

    There is, of course, a chance to live a fulfilling life in the case of a reunification with Russian, which would allow much of the above to be avoided.

    But! Imagine how many new displeasures would befall a large country as a result of such a step? And Novorossiyans will be a scapegoat in the yes of some liberal-minded citizens...and we don’t want to disturb our own.

    A chance for Ukraine - what in fact does this mean?

    Ukraine has already demonstrated utter inability to comply with a single point of Minsk-2. For European guarantors of the agreement, this means a loss of face and confidence. And knowing European traditions, it is easy to assume what will happen next.

    And further, if Poroshenko does not fulfill the Paris commitments, Merkel and Hollande will stop pushing him morally and move on to more effective measures. And at the same time they will recognize the right of the negotiating DPR and LPR, in fulfilling obligations, to independence. Rather, the unilateral declaration of independence. If Russian diplomacy works well and professionally (and to this day there is no reason to cast doubt on this), then on the international level, the right to proclaim independence will be recognized not only for the current territories, but for the Donetsk and Lugansk regions. That is, we will have the opportunity to return the occupied territories without firing a shot!

    Suppose, hypothetically, that Poroshenko meets the obligations? What will this mean for Donbass?

    Absolutely nothing will change. The special status in the wording of the DPR and LPR refers to a broad confederation, and this means that we will have the opportunity to hold a referendum recognized by the world community. And as the people will decide in such a referendum, so be it! The international community will have no choice but to recognize the results of the plebiscite and the new states on the world map. And further - here’s the trick - one more referendum, and I think you all know which questions will be written on the bulletins.

    A small remark on the question of exciting all residents of Donbass. Borders. Will it come to be that, after gaining control of borders with the Russian Federation, Ukraine will simply cram us into a reservation and starve us to death?

    It’s not going to happen. Control over the border is the last point of the Minsk Agreements, and it will be fulfilled after the full implementation of all the preceding points, among which are the points about the people’s militia, the election of prosecutors and judges, and the armed forces and security services (which includes the border guards). So, even if Poroshenko (or the one that will replace him in his post) vouched for some fantastic way to fulfill all of the agreements, there won’t be any new faces seen at the checkpoints of Uspenka, Marinovka, Izvarino, and others.

    How long will the wait be?

    I don’t think that we will have to wait a long time. The Ukrainian authorities already declared their refusal to fulfill Minsk-2. The whole world hears this and is drawing conclusions. Even considering the little interest that Europe and the US have in our fates, they will have to accept the Ukraine's irresponsibility as a given. If Ukrainian deputies and ministers maintain the current degree of “separation,” they will recognize us already in December-January. But this process won’t last later than February-March.

    The price that won’t have to be paid

    For an imaginary well-being, which some just can’t wait to attain today and now, we have had to pay in blood. The blood of residents of Mariupol, Kramatorsk, Severodonetsk, and other occupied cities. Even taking our cities by force means endangering the lives of their residents. Aren’t peoples’ lives worth two or three months of inconvenience? Yes they cost a hundred, thousand times more. Yes, it’s necessary to save the lives of our heroes, defenders, servicemen of the NAF, avoiding victims. They, without argument, are ready to sacrifice the future of Donbass, but it’s better that we stick it out for a while. We will not pay such a price for uncertain prospects, the failure of which is described above.

    What if the UAF go on an offensive?

    Firstly, they have nothing with which to attack. According to the intelligence of the armed forces of the DPR, they are running a few columns here and there along the contact line, creating the illusion of a serious movement of armed forces. Actually, 85-90% of the equipment aimed at Donbass is of third and fourth category, that is, have been kept in open-air storage for 30-40 years with questionable fighting prospects and rusty metal. Add to this low morale, low professionalism, moral decay, and a lack of incentives, and a probability of the occurrence of an offensive can be understood.

    But if by some miracle the UAF go on the offensive, breaking all conceivable and inconceivable norms, those European guarantors under the slight pressure of Russian (and possibly without) will initiate pressure on Ukraine up to the imposition of sanctions, which the country can hardly endure. The last thing that Europe needs today is a mass-scale war in the center of the continent. To whom do you think anyone will trust the operation to force Ukraine to peace? Smile

    What to expect from the future

    In my opinion, only good things can be expected. We’ve already survived the most difficult times. Let’s look around: integration is not simply going, it’s at full steam ahead! Every day, new laws are made and new innovations are published. All areas of our lives are being transferred to new standards. Do you think that they would do this if they ditched us?

    The ruble zone, school programs, Russian diplomas - is this not evidence that we are moving in the right direction and that we are not about to go wrap things up? Not everyone can voice our leaders and those who make decisions, but believe me, before we can go independently, it’s worth including logic.

    I want to end with a banal phrase, because we all need it: everything will be ok!
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:59 pm

    But Fortrus then followed it up with this foretaste of hell

    http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/the-real-uaf-from-decrepit-military-to.html
    PapaDragon
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  PapaDragon Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:00 am


    ^^^ I'll go with optimism, especially when we have gems like this one:

    ''Ukrainian Finance Minister: $40 Bln in Assistance Not Enough''

    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151011/1028333211.html

    Cool Razz
    auslander
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    Post  auslander Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:17 am

    Khepesh wrote:I said it was ratcheting up day by day. One civilian dead and one wounded by ukrops tank fire into Kievsky district of Donetsk http://dan-news.info/defence/odin-chelovek-pogib-i-odin-ranen-v-rezultate-obstrela-donecka-vsu-minoborony.html

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 6 D558a9b81b53

    They won't stop, their master will not let them stop.
    GarryB
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:58 am

    Why would Russia forget about the Donbass?

    If Kiev were able to move it so it was no longer a neighbour then they might... but the Russian friendly regions of the Ukraine are also those that share a border and wont be moving any time soon.

    Russia wants neighbours to be friendly, but Kiev seems keen to change that.

    I would say if Russia was abandoning Ukraine then they would likely have restructured the debt due in December... there is no reason for Russia to give in to the illegal government in Kiev... it is the Kiev government that is in a position of weakness, not Moscow... and I suspect Washington and Brussels knows this too.

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