AK-12 Rifle Discussion

So, Qatari SF are the first non-domestic entity to take possession of the AK-12.

https://www.milmag.pl/news/view?news_id=1758&fbclid=IwAR1pW2B4ca84kMYSE72QxvdDu8GLuqu5Bd8ff_rBlpingwL3YQdKItmkJqY

I wonder what happens if you try what they did at 6:30 with an m4.

The-thing-next-door wrote:I wonder what happens if you try what they did at 6:30 with an m4.

What if they tried it with the plastic fantastic G-36?

Not so bad for western weapons to be less reliable though, because if their tanks don't work in the cold or the dust, why would you need your rifles to work?

GarryB wrote:Not so bad for western weapons to be less reliable though, because if their tanks don't work in the cold or the dust, why would you need your rifles to work?

The usual BS is that the Russian machine guns have less targeting accuracy compared to the "high tech" NATO machine guns. The same
retarded argument used to belittle Russian ICBMs. NATO needs to stop with the self-delusion. It will not any wars with it and in the
case of WWIII will get wiped out.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

What if they tried it with the plastic fantastic G-36?

Oh yes the gun with the feature to prevent ammo wastage by simply melting when you use it too much

The morons even issue it with 100 round double drums and expect it to be used as a squad automatic weapon.

RuMoD has signed a contract for 150 000 AK-12 and AK-15. 50 000 per year starting from 2019.

https://www.interfax.ru/russia/657279

If you look at the video you can see that the new AK-12 infact uses a long stroke gas piston any thoughts?

That's a video from 2017.

ult wrote:That's a video from 2017.

Yes its promo

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/126689/

Special forces in the Samara region received the latest batch of Kalashnikov AK-12

More than 500 of the latest Kalashnikov AK-12 entered service with the special brigade of the Central military district (CVO), stationed in the Samara region.

AK-12 — 5,45-mm automatic brand new level. Developed by concern "Kalashnikov". Compared to previous versions of the AK-74M and AKM it has a high ergonomics. Modernization has led to increased accuracy of fire has increased, and so a considerable margin of survivability of the barrel, which began to use new technology.

The machine was developed in the framework of the "Warrior" as an element of the perspective of the complex equipment of the Armed forces of the Russian Federation and at the end of 2018 was adopted.

If you look at the video you can see that the new AK-12 infact uses a long stroke gas piston any thoughts?

Why do you think that is an issue?

Special forces in the Samara region received the latest batch of Kalashnikov AK-12

The AK-12 is like the T-90AM and Su-35 and MiG-35... it is a Soviet weapon that is upgraded as far as is practically possible to eliminate as many problems and flaws real or perceived without starting from scratch with a new design.

What I am looking forward to is the next gen design... so AK-74M to AK-12/15 to what?

The T-90AM has three replacements... the T-14 Armata, the B-14? Kurganets, and the K-14? Boomerang.... new generation vehicles.

The Su-35 and MiG-35 will likely remain in service in parallel with the Su-57 as a high/low mix offering capabilities that compliment rather than replace each other.

With the rifles personally I think they are working on new weapons.

Ironically current small arms ammo is arse about... in the Russian army.

The short range assault rifle round is a small calibre 5.45x39mm round, while the long range machine gun and sniper rifle ammo is a 7.62mm calibre round.

The short range ammo is small calibre and high velocity an relatively light projectiles, while the long range stuff is larger calibre lower velocity and heavier projectiles.

In terms of optimised performance it would actually make sense for the long range ammo to be both heavy and small calibre so it retains velocity over greater distance.

Velocity is energy so the faster a bullet travels the more energy it has for the same weight. The sooner it gets to the target the less time the target has to move.

The pinnacle of this is the flechette, but it lacks terminal effect which counts it out as a militarily effective round.

Steyr entered a rifle that fires flechettes in the US programme for a replacement for the M16. The Steyr entry had fixed iron sights because out to 800m there was so little bullet drop you didn't need to adjust fire for it...

It wasn't particularly accurate, but was very low recoil and penetrated flak jackets with ease at pretty much any range you could get a hit.

The main problem is that it wasn't particularly lethal making a large temporary cavity, but only a tiny permanent wound.

The problem is that to make it lethal you need to make it tumble, but if you make it tumble it stops being a good penetrator... and the accuracy wasn't good enough for the Americans who demand better than sniper rifle accuracy.

Is there a G11 type rifle being developed in Russia using liquid or gel propellent and hypersonic projectiles... an EM boosted weapon that launched solid metal projectiles using powerful magnetic coils alone with no propellent?

New plasma based propellants that leave no residue, that means the new ammo separates propellent, ignition, and projectile again, where the ignition is a small microwave emitter near the chamber... propellent is passed out in small tanks that fit around the barrel and the buttstock to assist cooling the barrel like an old water jacket on a WWI machine gun, with projectiles handed out in something like stripper clips but much smaller and with just projectiles fitted... or little plastic blocks containing a sabot encased projectile... different colours for different uses...

Actually in a sense the issue isn't the long gas piston.
The original AK-12 was a lightened long stroke piston, with stricter tolerances in design, theoretical free floating barrel; ambi etc.
The issue is that the process of manufacturing for new rifles is still overly expensive (for the Russian MO).

This issue hasn't been taken into consideration by the MO, while in the same time they ask for space guns like the Ots 122/128/129.

Russian MIC must take seriously the small arms design, because they're literally throwing away valuable material because they aren't dirt cheap.

But what is the problem with a long stroke piston?

KoTeMoRe wrote:Actually in a sense the issue isn't the long gas piston.
The original AK-12 was a lightened long stroke piston, with stricter tolerances in design, theoretical free floating barrel; ambi etc.
The issue is that the process of manufacturing for new rifles is still overly expensive (for the Russian MO).

This issue hasn't been taken into consideration by the MO, while in the same time they ask for space guns like the Ots 122/128/129.

Russian MIC must take seriously the small arms design, because they're literally throwing away valuable material because they aren't dirt cheap.

Assault rifles, and firearms in general aren't force-multipliers let alone game-changers....no need to spend a boatload of money on them.

In WWIII they are not, but in COIN type ops where you need to be sure of your target and not just hose down everyone then good fire arms are important.

Over 700 latest AK-12 assault rifles arrive for commandos in Russia’s south

The Kalashnikov Group plans to deliver 112,500 AK-12 assault rifles to Russian troops by 2021

MOSCOW, November 11. /TASS/. Over 700 latest Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifles have arrived for special operations forces stationed in the Krasnodar Region in Russia’s south, the press office of the Southern Military District reported on Monday.

"A batch of more than 700 latest Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifles has arrived for a special operations unit of the Southern Military District stationed in the Krasnodar Region," the press office said in a statement.

The special operations personnel will now carry out check fire and maintenance of the new weapons, the statement says.

The Kalashnikov Group plans to deliver 112,500 AK-12 assault rifles to Russian troops by 2021. The deliveries started in December 2018.

The AK-12 features improved ergonomics compared to the previous AK-74M and AKM versions. The upgrade has increased the accuracy of fire and extended the assault rifle’s barrel life. The AK-12 chambered for 5.45mm rounds was developed by the Kalashnikov Group under the Ratnik program as an element of the advanced soldier’s combat outfit and was accepted for service in late 2018.

https://tass.com/defense/1087958

KoTeMoRe wrote:Actually in a sense the issue isn't the long gas piston.
The original AK-12 was a lightened long stroke piston, with stricter tolerances in design, theoretical free floating barrel; ambi etc.
The issue is that the process of manufacturing for new rifles is still overly expensive (for the Russian MO).

This issue hasn't been taken into consideration by the MO, while in the same time they ask for space guns like the Ots 122/128/129.

Russian MIC must take seriously the small arms design, because they're literally throwing away valuable material because they aren't dirt cheap.

You are right - according to Vladimir Onokoy, original gun was canned due to high manufacturing price. This "new" AK still brings improvement to what Russian army has. The real problem is that Russian manufacturers have very little impact on small arm sales both domestically and internationally and this alone could spawn interesting developments that could seep into military.

What about OTs? I always had impression that TsKIB SOO was designing weapons for internal troops? Well apart from participating in Altay project.

Kalashnikov gunmaker delivers latest AK-12 assault rifles to troops ahead of schedule

The company CEO informed that the 2021 production has been rolled out

MOSCOW, April 9. /TASS/. The Kalashnikov firearms manufacturer has completed the 2020 deliveries of the latest AK-12 assault rifles to Russia’s Defense Ministry ahead of schedule, Kalashnikov Group CEO Dmitry Tarasov announced on Thursday.

"We have completed the fulfillment of the 2020 defense procurement plan for the AK-12 assault rifle in record time. The arms production facility in Izhevsk has already launched the 2021 work [for fulfilling the defense procurement plan]. The tasks to ensure the country’s defense capability and effective interaction with all customers remain our priorities," the Kalashnikov Group quoted its chief executive as saying on its website.

The new assault rifle is distinguished by its improved ergonomics compared to its AK-74M and AKM predecessors. The assault rifle’s upgrade has increased its accuracy of fire, the carbine’s safety margin and the survivability of its barrel whose production is now based on new technology. The new assault rifle makes part of the Ratnik ‘soldier of the future' combat outfit in Russian troops.

The Kalashnikov Group announced in April 2019 its plans to deliver 112,500 AK-12 assault rifles to Russia’s Defense Ministry by 2021.

The Kalashnikov Group, the maker of the renowned AK-47 assault rifle, is Russia’s major producer of combat automatic and sniper guns, guided artillery shells and a broad range of precision weapons.

https://tass.com/defense/1142469

Discussion of guns is always so extreme. Like a bunch of wine connoisseurs discussing some bottle of wine. Is any soldier ever going to
use a machine gun like a violin player? No freaking way. So all of the 3rd derivative and higher nuances of the design are all academic.
If the gun is reliable, survives real field conditions without jamming, then it is more than good enough. All the yapping about machine
gun hit accuracy is pure BS, since no GI Joe user of any machine gun is ever going to be good enough to feel the nth derivative difference.

If the AK-12 retains the AK-47 reliability then it is a success already.

The AK-12 seems to have addressed all the real and perceived problems of earlier AK iterations, so the AK-12 will serve the Russians well.

I used to be one of those guys that would gripe about certain features that the AK apparently lacked until I found out just how wrong I was. The bolt hold open device is one such thing I used to wish was included in the AK; Kalashnikov was obviously not an idiot and knew that a bolt hold open device would allow the ingress of dust and sand into the action, so he excluded that feature.

The AR-15 style straight mag method insert use to appeal to me; I now see the wisdom of the rock and lock method, as it ensures proper seating and mag retention. AR-15 operators have to push and pull the magazine to be confident that the magazine will be retained.

The AR-15's mag release button is also inferior to the paddle because of its susceptibility to accidental release; a bump could do it.  

The only other gun that I think would have served Russia equally as well is the AM-17; a full length version of this rifle would have been a real competitor to the AK-12- except perhaps in cost. What is the current cost of this rifle?

I think the Czech Vz 58 or something has a bolt hold open cutout on the magazine but when you pull out the mag the bolt slams forward so I really don't understand how it is useful except to tell you to change mags.

The SKS had a bolt hold open device but that was mainly to facilitate loading via a stripper clip.

If you look through the Kalashnikov archives and books there were dozens of different variations they tested before finalising on the rifles they did.

That includes rifles with the cocking handle on the left side and different sight arrangements.

Note the FN FAL had a bolt hold open option but it was manual, and the magazines were locked into place by rocking them back too.

In fact the FN FAL is an excellent example of a rifle that is better implimented than the AR.

The FN FAL has a front and a rear bit... the rear is the pistol grip and butt stock with recoil spring inside, while the upper is the upper receiver and magazine well and barrel, chamber and front grip.

This means that if you wanted to develop an new upper for the FN FAL you could make it any calibre and any mechanism you like... you could make it pump action using the recoil spring in the butt, or keep the gas system, but make it any calibre from a .22lr blowback, to any rifle calibre or shotgun calibre because the magazine well is part of the upper a 12 gauge model can use a 12 gauge mag well.

With the AR-15 the mag well is part of the lower so you can buy an upper for any calibre you want but that calibre has to fit through the well designed for the 5.56mm NATO round. You can't have calibres like .243 winchester or even a 7.62x51mm calibre because they wont fit in the mag well.

Button releases on the SA80 constantly led to soldiers getting to where they were going and shouldering their rifles and firing their first round only to find their magazine was gone... the chance of an AK mag accidentally dropping were zero.

Also the lever means you are holding the mag in your hand and operating the mag release with your thumb so if you are going to put the mag away in your belt order because you are on a mission and wont get resupplied for a week so you want to refill your mags later with the boxes of ammo in your backpack then putting the spent mags back in your belt order is important.

AK mags are much more solid and reliable than M16 mags which were a source of problems for all the rifles that used them.

Actually I like the look of the ADS... bullpup that can be fired left handed or right handed without adjustment... sounds pretty accurate and able to fire under water...

There has been a mention regarding Ratnik 3 due about 2025 will include new small arms of new design... presumably a new family of weapons...

Would like to see a PKP in 6x49mm calibre too.

Cyrus the great wrote:The AK-12 seems to have addressed all the real and perceived problems of earlier AK iterations, so the AK-12 will serve the Russians well.

I used to be one of those guys that would gripe about certain features that the AK apparently lacked until I found out just how wrong I was. The bolt hold open device is one such thing I used to wish was included in the AK; Kalashnikov was obviously not an idiot and knew that a bolt hold open device would allow the ingress of dust and sand into the action, so he excluded that feature.

The AR-15 style straight mag method insert use to appeal to me; I now see the wisdom of the rock and lock method, as it ensures proper seating and mag retention. AR-15 operators have to push and pull the magazine to be confident that the magazine will be retained.

The AR-15's mag release button is also inferior to the paddle because of its susceptibility to accidental release; a bump could do it.  

The only other gun that I think would have served Russia equally as well is the AM-17; a full length version of this rifle would have been a real competitor to the AK-12- except perhaps in cost. What is the current cost of this rifle?

Why would you want to hold the bolt open? This isn't a breach-loaded rifle, it has a magazine for loading automatically.