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    Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

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    Austin
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    Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Austin on Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:32 pm

    New 8.58 Caliber Sniper Rifle from Russia

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20110718/403546117.html

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:57 am

    So they must have decided they will produce 338 laupa magnum rounds... the purpose of the 338 laupa round is to increase the reach of sniper rifles without resorting to a weapon of the size and weight of a 50 cal rifle.

    For example a 7.62mm calibre full power rifle cartridge is really an 800m range weapon with the odd rifle capable of 1,000m, the real problem is that as the bullet slows down and drops below sonic speed the effects on trajectory are not easily predictable so accuracy can be adversely effected.

    A decent 7.62mm sniper rifle might weight 6kg and shoot to 800m and cost $6K, whereas a 50 cal rifle might weigh 12kgs and shoot to 2,000m and cost $20K. The 338 fits in the middle as a 7-8kg rifle that can shoot to 1,250m or even 1,500m depending on the version of ammo and cost $10K.

    In other words it offers more than a 7.62 without the excessive cost and weight of a 50 cal.

    The initial problem will be lack of quality 338 cal ammo in Russia. The 50 cal has the same problem really because the vast majority of 50 cal ammo produced in Russia is for HMGs and simply does not have the accuracy to hit point targets at long range without being fired in long bursts of course.

    For those interested the complete description of the round is 8.58 x 70mm.

    They had a lot of problems during development with case stretching... I am surprised they didn't simply go for a belted case design.

    Should be a very interesting and powerful rifle.

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    Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  ak74m on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:37 pm

    ive recently watched the tv series called surviving the cut about marine scout snipers, i was really impressed, they have a really tough selection proccess, what i want to know is does russia have any sniper training which can match the yanky's high standard???

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:10 pm

    The Soviets and Russians have plenty of elite forces trained to very high standards... including Vlad who created this forum.

    The main difference however is that western snipers have been trained to shoot at very long distances... ie 800m+ whereas most Soviet and Russian snipers would not usually attempt such risky long range shots.

    Obviously the west has developed weapons and ammo and learned the required skills for long range kills... to the point where many less well educated westerners don't consider the SVD to be a sniper rifle. They would call it a designated marksman rifle akin to the M14 or the M21 which is an M14 modified for accurate shooting.

    In actual fact the SVD is a sniper rifle and was custom designed for the role, but for the role in the Soviet Union where most shots are taken from 600m or less.

    It is sighted out to 1,200m or so, but that would just be for harassing fire against large numbers of enemy troops, or light vehicles like trucks.

    The Russians probably have a much wider range of service weapons for "special use" than the west, including the SV-99 in .22lr calibre for sniping at up to 70m in an urban environment, through to AK-74Ms with a scope, VSS suppressed sniper rifles in 9 x 39mm calibre effective out to 400m, then you have the SVD out to 800m, the SV-98 to perhaps 1,000m and the OSV-96 in 12.7mm calibre that would probably be used out to about 1,800m or so, but more against vehicles and missile targets. They also have special 12.7mm suppressed sniper rifles and a few other weapons that have specialist use. Some special units have started looking at extended range shooting with bullet design and new propellent as well as new calibres.

    There seems to be a lot of testing of .338 Laupa Magnum calibre weapons of which photos are on this forum somewhere, and I distinctly remember seeing a rifle made in Russia that uses a Cheytech calibre that is also designed for very long range use, so they are gradually changing their philosophy.

    Of course for engaging point targets at 2km another option is the Metis-M1 system, where a 3 man team can carry a launcher and 5 missiles, each one with a range of 2km and a HE payload more powerful than anything you can put in a 50 cal bullet.
    Also they have the 14.5mm HMG in their inventory which has twice the muzzle energy of a 50 cal and would be ideal out to about 2,500m or so.
    I have heard talk of SLAP rounds for this calibre, but have never seen any myself... which makes sense... a SLAP round is not much use in a machine gun unless all the rounds are SLAPs as a sabot round generally has a completely different trajectory to other much lower velocity rounds so a mix of SLAP and standard ball rounds would be stupid as the bullets would be going everywhere.
    In a dedicated sniper rifle however a SLAP round would be a very valuable round to use for all sorts of light armoured targets.
    The 14.5 x 115mm round was modified in WWII by expanding the neck of the case to fit the 23mm projectile of the 23 x 152mm shell used in the Shturmovik and later a similar round used in the ground forces in the ZU-23 and the ZSU-23-4.
    The resulting round was a low velocity weapon with a short case that was easy to use in rapid firing aircraft guns that had a projectile with a heavy HE payload.

    The South Africans have an anti material rifle that can fire either a 20mm cannon shell or a 14.5mm HMG round. The 20mm shell lacks armour penetration performance, but carries a good HE payload out to about 1,600m, while the 14.5mm has good armour penetration performance and is accurate out to 2,500m.

    It would certainly make sense for the Russians to make an anti material rifle based on the 23 x 115mm and the 14.5 x 115mm rounds in my opinion (if they haven't already done so).

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  ak74m on Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Soviets and Russians have plenty of elite forces trained to very high standards... including Vlad who created this forum.

    The main difference however is that western snipers have been trained to shoot at very long distances... ie 800m+ whereas most Soviet and Russian snipers would not usually attempt such risky long range shots.

    Obviously the west has developed weapons and ammo and learned the required skills for long range kills... to the point where many less well educated westerners don't consider the SVD to be a sniper rifle. They would call it a designated marksman rifle akin to the M14 or the M21 which is an M14 modified for accurate shooting.

    In actual fact the SVD is a sniper rifle and was custom designed for the role, but for the role in the Soviet Union where most shots are taken from 600m or less.

    It is sighted out to 1,200m or so, but that would just be for harassing fire against large numbers of enemy troops, or light vehicles like trucks.

    The Russians probably have a much wider range of service weapons for "special use" than the west, including the SV-99 in .22lr calibre for sniping at up to 70m in an urban environment, through to AK-74Ms with a scope, VSS suppressed sniper rifles in 9 x 39mm calibre effective out to 400m, then you have the SVD out to 800m, the SV-98 to perhaps 1,000m and the OSV-96 in 12.7mm calibre that would probably be used out to about 1,800m or so, but more against vehicles and missile targets. They also have special 12.7mm suppressed sniper rifles and a few other weapons that have specialist use. Some special units have started looking at extended range shooting with bullet design and new propellent as well as new calibres.

    There seems to be a lot of testing of .338 Laupa Magnum calibre weapons of which photos are on this forum somewhere, and I distinctly remember seeing a rifle made in Russia that uses a Cheytech calibre that is also designed for very long range use, so they are gradually changing their philosophy.

    Of course for engaging point targets at 2km another option is the Metis-M1 system, where a 3 man team can carry a launcher and 5 missiles, each one with a range of 2km and a HE payload more powerful than anything you can put in a 50 cal bullet.
    Also they have the 14.5mm HMG in their inventory which has twice the muzzle energy of a 50 cal and would be ideal out to about 2,500m or so.
    I have heard talk of SLAP rounds for this calibre, but have never seen any myself... which makes sense... a SLAP round is not much use in a machine gun unless all the rounds are SLAPs as a sabot round generally has a completely different trajectory to other much lower velocity rounds so a mix of SLAP and standard ball rounds would be stupid as the bullets would be going everywhere.
    In a dedicated sniper rifle however a SLAP round would be a very valuable round to use for all sorts of light armoured targets.
    The 14.5 x 115mm round was modified in WWII by expanding the neck of the case to fit the 23mm projectile of the 23 x 152mm shell used in the Shturmovik and later a similar round used in the ground forces in the ZU-23 and the ZSU-23-4.
    The resulting round was a low velocity weapon with a short case that was easy to use in rapid firing aircraft guns that had a projectile with a heavy HE payload.

    The South Africans have an anti material rifle that can fire either a 20mm cannon shell or a 14.5mm HMG round. The 20mm shell lacks armour penetration performance, but carries a good HE payload out to about 1,600m, while the 14.5mm has good armour penetration performance and is accurate out to 2,500m.

    It would certainly make sense for the Russians to make an anti material rifle based on the 23 x 115mm and the 14.5 x 115mm rounds in my opinion (if they haven't already done so).




    well i did know that russia has forces trained to high standards ( if not higher standards than western ones ) but thanks for the info, i didnt know alot of that, but dont you think that russia should creat something similar to the scout snipers and maybe employ a rifle similar to the l96 that the british use ( i know that this rifle is currently in service with the fsb) because i just think that such a unit would be able to out perform the marines if it is created

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  NationalRus on Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:22 pm

    that was a long thread titel

    and about every halfway not assbackwards country has professional sniper training for ther snipers, its not rocket science

    bisies russia has devoloped now too a 2km+ sniper rifle the Lobaev Sniper Rifle which is build for the 408. caliber

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Pervius on Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:32 pm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.408_Chey_Tac

    Russia is using an American long range caliber American shooters came up with... to protect Russian President Medvedev.

    The .50 BMG is better on the battlefield. If you run out of match ammo...everyone will have 50BMG to scrounge and use instead to get by.

    Which is why Russia also has the OSV-96 semi automatic 12.7x108mm....and KSVK 12.7x108mm bolt action rifles.

    Those two use match grade sniper rifle ammo, but if they run out....they too can scrounge for 12.7x108mm from other units.

    Both the US/Russia have the same big-bore Sniper theories. There is also Russian ASVK-KORD 12.7x108mm sniper rifle:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8pjSIhr2u8
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYXuiC12AA



    Russian long range snipers can match US snipers.

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:51 am

    but dont you think that russia should creat something similar to the scout snipers and maybe employ a rifle similar to the l96 that the british use ( i know that this rifle is currently in service with the fsb) because i just think that such a unit would be able to out perform the marines if it is created

    You mean like the SV-98?



    They are also working on a model in .338 Laupa Magnum calibre.

    The SV-98 was developed by a guy that makes civilian target rifles, and the design is based on one of his previous rifle designs, though made of modern materials.

    The .50 BMG is better on the battlefield. If you run out of match ammo...everyone will have 50BMG to scrounge and use instead to get by.

    That is what I thought till I had a chat with a real sniper.

    Standard HMG ammo is made to an accuracy standard that is much lower than the standard for long range precision work a sniper has to perform.

    The Soviets and Russians have a long tradition of snipers... they just tended to get closer to their target than western snipers. Often it was dictated by the ammo they were using that was the limiting factor... in the battle for Stalingrad there were no extra shipments of special sniper ammo for the snipers... you had to use the ammo other riflemen were using which was not designed for precision at 800m plus ranges... it was designed to work in the cold weather and rough conditions.

    The nearest equivalent to a marine scout sniper would be Army GRU sniper... GRU is army intel and recon forces.

    Same job, similar equipment.

    Normal issue after the 1960s was an SVD sniper rifle and as a side arm they often got special weapons like Stechkin machine pistols for self defence at close range.

    Which is why Russia also has the OSV-96 semi automatic 12.7x108mm....and KSVK 12.7x108mm bolt action rifles.

    And also this:





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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Flanky on Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:25 pm

    Russians are reportedly interrested also in the anti-material rifle made in Azerbaijan called "Istigal".
    But in any case yes they do have the long range sniping capability as well.

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  franco on Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:23 am

    The new Brigades have a designated Sniper Platoon.The District Training Centers would have sniper training facilities and there is a national sniper school near Solnechnogorsk.

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:14 am

    Hey Flanky, got any more info about the Istigal?

    I looked it up on google and it is a 14.5mm calibre rifle and the video said it weighed 20kgs but it had 34kgs as well, and that its effective range was 3,000m.

    20kgs is a bit heavy... especially considering the PTRS-41 weighed about that much and it was a WWII design.

    The calibre does dictate a heavy rifle however and it needs a long barrel to take advantage of the propellent capacity of the round.

    Thanks to franco... interesting info... was going to vote for your post, but I have already voted today... so will try to remember to vote tomorrow. Smile

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  coolieno99 on Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:55 am

    Russia produced many fine snipers during World War 2. Lyudmila Mikhailivna Pavlichenko is one of the best sniper served in that War. She (yes, she is a woman) recorded 309 confirmed kills(German soldiers) including 36 snipers. She used the M1891/Mosin-Nagant 7.62mm 5-shot bolt-action sniper rifle with a 4X scope. Toward the end of the war she became an instructor at a sniper school.



    Source: vincelewis.net

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:41 am

    Plenty of opportunity for snipers in WWII especially on the eastern front.

    ... it was very common at Stalingrad.

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Flanky on Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:41 pm

    Regarding the Istigal - i have read somewhere (unfortunatelyl i don't remember, nor i do not know the credibility) that Izhevsk is in talks with RPE the azerbaijani firm that created the Istigal to purchase the license for serial production in Russia. And also that i know there are 2 versions of the rifle while the third one is currently in develpment.
    A 20 mm caliber a 14,5 mm caliber (heavier one) and 12,7mm much less heavy.

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:31 am

    Well that would be the first I have heard of the Russian interest in the 14.5mm calibre in terms of weapons.

    Of course up until recently they haven't been so interested in very long range work so for most roles the 12.7 x 108mm calibre has been sufficient.

    For anti MRAP use they have developed a 30 x 165mm calibre weapon, which should offer the penetration AND shell capacity for a decent HE charge to both penetrate an MRAP type vehicle and also be quite destructive once inside the vehicle.

    Of course to be effective... just like with 12.7mm ammo they will need dedicated 14.5mm ammo for this new rifle, which could include SLAP rounds which could be made to be quite impressive in performance terms.

    There was a west european country that developed a 15mm calibre round based on the 14.5mm round that used modern propellent and projectiles and achieved a 40mm penetration performance at 1km range... which is pretty impressive.

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:44 am

    A new high precision rifle "ORSIS T-5000" was shown at N. Tagil show


    ...The performance characteristics of the rifle ORSIS T-5000 a guarantee to hit targets at any time of day and night in all weather conditions, without pre-zeroing and technical training at ranges up to 1 Km. The rifle comes in two calibers: 308 Winchester (7,62 x51 mm) for shooting at short and medium range and 338 Lapua Magnum (8,6 x70 mm) for shooting at medium and long distances. The rifle is designed to equip anti-terrorist and special units of law enforcement agencies of Russia with high quality weapons.

    Interest in acquiring the product GC "Promtehnologii" is also present at the exhibition expressed by representatives of delegations from abroad.

    http://www.orsis.com/about/news/1482/

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:18 am

    The presentation of the latest developments - the sniper rifle ORSIS T-5000.
    At the VIII International exhibition of arms, "Nizhni Tagil - 2011" has been successfully demonstrated to the combat capabilities of the latest model produced by the Moscow arms factory GC "Promtehnologii."

    One of the most notable developments of the international exhibition of armaments in Nizhny Tagil, REA-2011 was the presentation of the newest sniper rifle ORSIS T-5000. For the first time in the past two decades, Russia has managed to develop and launch into production a brand new sniper rifle, meets all modern requirements for such weapons.

    Combat capabilities of the latest developments exhibitors successfully demonstrated a leading expert GC "Promtehnologii", a renowned expert in the field of precision shooting Dmitry Semizorov. Shooting took place with the usual rounds of easily destructible targets at distances of 100, 300 and 540 m. The precision of the battle rifle evoked prolonged applause at present stands professionals and VIP guests.

    The performance characteristics of the rifle ORSIS T-5000 provides guaranteed to hit targets at any time of day and night in all weather conditions, without pre-zeroing and technical training at ranges up to a mile. The rifle comes in two calibers: 308 Winchester (7,62 x51 mm) for shooting at short and medium range and 338 Lapua Magnum (8,6 x70 mm) for shooting at medium and long distances. The rifle is designed to equip anti-terrorist and special units of law enforcement agencies of Russia with high quality weapons.

    Interest in acquiring the product GC "Promtehnologii" is also present at the exhibition expressed by representatives of delegations and abroad.

    Launched in 2011, production plant for high-precision hunting, sporting and tactical rifles under the brand name is the first ORSIS realized project of the Group companies' Promtehnologii. " Are currently under research to identify other promising areas in the field of modern firearms.

    Interesting that they chamber the rifle in 7.62 x 51mm NATO.

    This is a Police type weapon for law enforcement agencies, though why they would need 1km plus range rifles is a good question.

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Pervius on Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:06 am

    Flanky wrote:Regarding the Istigal - i have read somewhere (unfortunatelyl i don't remember, nor i do not know the credibility) that Izhevsk is in talks with RPE the azerbaijani firm that created the Istigal to purchase the license for serial production in Russia. And also that i know there are 2 versions of the rifle while the third one is currently in develpment.
    A 20 mm caliber a 14,5 mm caliber (heavier one) and 12,7mm much less heavy.


    20mm rifle's will just about knock your teeth out when it fires:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9NxHj1R04g

    But there are still people making 20mm sniper rifles with suppressors. Do you have a link to the Russian 20mm sniper rifles?

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:53 am

    The Russians really have 3 obvious options, they can do what the South Africans did and take an old relatively low velocity 20mm cannon shell (20 x 82mm) for HE capacity and the high velocity anti tank rifle round (14.5 x 115mm) and base the gun on these two rounds with different barrels and bolts and magazines for each.

    That way you could choose for armour penetration or HE power depending on the intended target.

    (HE would be effective out to about 1.6km, but would have higher velocity and flatter more accurate shooting than a 30mm or 40mm grenade launcher. The 14.5mm round could be made to be effective to 2.5km or more as it is a very powerful round, though originally it was actually meant for armour penetration at ranges of 300m or less.)

    This direction would suit the Russians as they also have the 23 x 115mm shell that was the 14.5mm round necked out to use the 23mm shell used in the 23 x 152mm gun of the Il-2 shturmovick. This is a low velocity round (about 700m/s) with a large heavy projectile that could be made to carry a heavy HE payload and the magazines and bolt could be made interchangable with just a separate barrel for each calibre.
    23mm calibre rounds were widely used on Russian and Soviet aircraft and are still used today on the latest model Hind with a twin 23mm cannon in a chin turret.

    It also offers the potential to upgrade KPV 14.5mm HMGs to KPVB 23mm light cannon in light Russian armoured vehicle... they would give up anti armour performance for superior HE effect.

    The second option of course is to create a new round from scratch using modern technology designed especially for the role, which might make it hard to sell internationally.

    A third option of course would be to use the old WWII SHVAK 20 x 99mm rimmed round.

    The B-20 automatic cannon fired the 20 x 99mm round full auto and weighed in at about 25kgs, so there should be room to reduce weight by removing the automatic firing mechanism and going for a bolt action.

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:11 am

    Do note of course that while I mention ammo commonality issues that any AMR weapon designed to use these calibres wont be able to just pick ammo up from anywhere as the accuracy and long range performance of the rounds is way beyond what the rounds were originally designed for.

    Also, if the weight of the weapon can't be kept below about 30kgs and the effective range doesn't exceed 2km by very much then it would probably make more sense to use something like METIS-M1 where a 3 man team could carry the launcher and 5 missiles into combat and hit targets with precision in all weathers day or night out to 2km with a lot more punch in terms of armour penetration (950mm) and HE power (equivelent to 7kgs HE per missile).

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Interesting that they chamber the rifle in 7.62 x 51mm NATO.

    This is a Police type weapon for law enforcement agencies, though why they would need 1km plus range rifles is a good question.

    A sample batch for further testing has reportedly been ordered for potential use by FSB / MVD special units

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:40 am

    Hopefully the SV-98 will get into proper service for use in roles where the SVD is not accurate enough.

    Sometimes follow up shots are more important than extreme accuracy, but accuracy is always a nice to have feature on any non fully automatic weapon.

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:34 am

    I'm seeing more of the SSG-04 in various elite units together with the SVD and VSS rifles

    SSG-04
    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/at/steyr-ssg-04-e.html

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:36 pm

    Elite forces are likely to buy foreign rifles to meet specialist needs that can't be met by Russian sources at the moment, but widespread service rifles will be Russian, and the SV-98 sounds like a good weapon though I have heard criticism of the scope as not being very good and also that the rifle is expensive.

    An order of 20,000 would likely reduce the price hopefully.

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:28 am

    Looks like it won't be only elite units by the sounds of it. It was announced a few days ago that each active brigade will get a specialised sniper unit (platoon sized) made up of contract soldiers. That's on top of the regular "infantry" snipers/sharpshooters (usually SVD armed) in each infantry section.

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