AK-12 Rifle Discussion

GarryB wrote:I think the Czech Vz 58 or something has a bolt hold open cutout on the magazine but when you pull out the mag the bolt slams forward so I really don't understand how it is useful except to tell you to change mags.

The SKS had a bolt hold open device but that was mainly to facilitate loading via a stripper clip.

If you look through the Kalashnikov archives and books there were dozens of different variations they tested before finalising on the rifles they did.

That includes rifles with the cocking handle on the left side and different sight arrangements.

Note the FN FAL had a bolt hold open option but it was manual, and the magazines were locked into place by rocking them back too.

In fact the FN FAL is an excellent example of a rifle that is better implimented than the AR.

The FN FAL has a front and a rear bit... the rear is the pistol grip and butt stock with recoil spring inside, while the upper is the upper receiver and magazine well and barrel, chamber and front grip.

This means that if you wanted to develop an new upper for the FN FAL you could make it any calibre and any mechanism you like... you could make it pump action using the recoil spring in the butt, or keep the gas system, but make it any calibre from a .22lr blowback, to any rifle calibre or shotgun calibre because the magazine well is part of the upper a 12 gauge model can use a 12 gauge mag well.

With the AR-15 the mag well is part of the lower so you can buy an upper for any calibre you want but that calibre has to fit through the well designed for the 5.56mm NATO round. You can't have calibres like .243 winchester or even a 7.62x51mm calibre because they wont fit in the mag well.

Button releases on the SA80 constantly led to soldiers getting to where they were going and shouldering their rifles and firing their first round only to find their magazine was gone... the chance of an AK mag accidentally dropping were zero.

Also the lever means you are holding the mag in your hand and operating the mag release with your thumb so if you are going to put the mag away in your belt order because you are on a mission and wont get resupplied for a week so you want to refill your mags later with the boxes of ammo in your backpack then putting the spent mags back in your belt order is important.

AK mags are much more solid and reliable than M16 mags which were a source of problems for all the rifles that used them.

Actually I like the look of the ADS... bullpup that can be fired left handed or right handed without adjustment... sounds pretty accurate and able to fire under water...

There has been a mention regarding Ratnik 3 due about 2025 will include new small arms of new design... presumably a new family of weapons...

Would like to see a PKP in 6x49mm calibre too.

The AK was designed very well and it took me a little while to come to this realisation. I regarded all the tacti-cool features in other guns as essential without considering that the Russians looked at it and chose to exclude those very tacti-cool features in favour of reliability and ease of use. I saw how the AR beat the AK in 'speed reloads' and so I thought why don't the Russians just adopt an AR-15 magwell, a mag release button, a bolt catch and a bolt release. The one second speed advantage of the AR-15 is not critical; soldiers reload under cover so I would rather use a gun with a more durable magazine, guaranteed magazine retention and an easier way to fix problems.

I now prefer the ergonomics of the AK system over the AR due to its ease of use, simplicity and the reliability of the platform.

I've never really been a fan of bullpups but I do see their value; the length of the barrel can be increased while being smaller overall, so it's much better for CQB operations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just think that guns like the AM-17/AMB-17 can do CQB operations just as well, especially when range is not an issue.

The French and the Chinese seem to be moving away from bullpups. The Israelis are the only ones that are doing the opposite.

The 6x49mm would be incredible and I hope Russia puts it into service for the Chukavin and the PK machine gun. The ballistics of that round are off the charts amd it really should replace the 7.62x54mm.

Why would you want to hold the bolt open? This isn't a breach-loaded rifle, it has a magazine for loading automatically. wrote:

It was entirely for stupid reasons like speed of reloads. I saw the speed advantage of the AR-15 but paid no attention to the AK's mag retention advantage.

If rate of fire and number of rounds fired meant you win then the Americans won in Vietnam... I seem to remember a statistic of something like 22,000 rounds fired per kill or something outrageous like that...

What ever happened to controlled aimed fire?

With proper training you should be able to change mags without looking so any time spent reloading can be spent observing the battlefield looking for threats to evade and targets to engage.

Funny thing is that you saw how slow the reload for the Russian rifle was... who was using it... an American trained on the AR?

I have seen plenty of videos of Russian forces using the AK pretty damn fast too...

I've never really been a fan of bullpups but I do see their value; the length of the barrel can be increased while being smaller overall, so it's much better for CQB operations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just think that guns like the AM-17/AMB-17 can do CQB operations just as well, especially when range is not an issue.

Most Russian troops will be fully mechanised so a short compact weapon with a full length barrel and an optical sight would be ideal for sitting in a vehicle or aircraft.

Folding stocks can make a weapon more compact sometimes but bullpups make it compact all the time, and a rifle like the ADS can be fired left or right handed without modification or adjustment and seems to be rather accurate and useful.

The French and the Chinese seem to be moving away from bullpups. The Israelis are the only ones that are doing the opposite.

Yeah, there are always rumours of the British and the Kiwis and Aussies going to the M4 but that ignores all the issues the M4 has with its dramatic reduction in lethality with a variety of ammo types where the velocity of the bullet is not high enough from the short barrel for it to do much more than punch a tiny neat hole in the target.

The 6x49mm would be incredible and I hope Russia puts it into service for the Chukavin and the PK machine gun. The ballistics of that round are off the charts amd it really should replace the 7.62x54mm.

It would be a significant step forward for Russian small arms to have a sniper rifle and machine gun with much better reach and performance with a lighter cheaper to make ammunition.

It will of course be an enormous endeavour... every coaxial rifle calibre machine gun on every armoured vehicle today in service in Russia uses a PKT... in the 1960s when they switched from the SG-43 to the PKT they actually fitted the PKT with a longer barrel so that the ballistics would match the older weapons, so they could continue to use the optics and range scales for the older machine gun... it made the transition faster and easier and much much cheaper.

With the new vehicles I suspect the aim marks will be computer generated so swapping out a weapon would be as easy as a software update.

Even their new rifle scopes have digital ballistic computers that generate points of aim for different ammo types from different barrel lengths... so you might have an RPK and an SVD and maybe an RPK-16 that you own and a new scope to use on all three. When you mount it on a weapon you set the scope up with the weapon it is attached to and its calibre (for weapons that come in different calibres like AK-100s) and then you put in the bullet type and weight. So SVD with 174 grain sniper ammo tells the computer the barrel length and bullet weight and muzzle velocity. On the target range you lase the target range and then aim for the centre of the target and fire a shot. You then adjust your aim to put your cross hair on the bullet hole on the target and the scope automatically compensates and zeros itself... the rifle is then ready to shoot... lase the target and the scope will generate an aim point... place that on the part of the target you are aiming for and fire and it should hit close to that every time.

Take the scope off and put it on the 5.45 x 39mm RPK-16, and change the weapon type to RPK-16 and tell it whether you are using the long barrel or the short barrel and the ammo projectile weight... lase the distance to the first target and fire and then adjust and you are ready to go.

Would be great for hunting because you just need one shot to zero. Of course with hunting you might need to put in more information if your rifle is not in the database... perhaps have to put in that you are using a 270 from a 560mm length barrel with a 130 grain bullet at 900m/s or whatever so it can do its calculations, but once that is in you can save it and call it up when you use it again...

Did I mention they used thermal imaging so could be used day or night?

I would also add that if reloading mags is an issue then with the current AKs you can use a 45 round RPK-74 magazine, or one of the new 96 round drums being developed for the RPK-16...

You can bet your ass if the AR was more reliable than the AK then that would be the important thing instead of reloading speed... which is interesting because I would think reliability would be the most important thing.

BTW bullpups are real dogs in terms of reloading because it is rather awkward and slow, but they are talking about brand new weapons with brand new ammo for the Ratnik 3 that is going to be released in 2025... so it will be interesting... most of the tacticool stuff you see soldiers carry to be honest make them look silly and uncomfortable. What is the point of making a rifle 3kgs if you are going to put 10kgs of crap on it?

Kalashnikov gunmaker delivers 35,000 latest AK-12 assault rifles to Russian troops

The new assault rifle is distinguished by its improved ergonomics compared to its AK-74M and AKM predecessors

KRASNODAR, June 15. /TASS/. The Kalashnikov Group (part of the state hi-tech corporation Rostec) has delivered about 35,000 latest AK-12 assault rifles to the troops, Kalashnikov Group CEO Dmitry Tarasov told TASS on Monday.

"We have already closed the contract for this year, i.e. we have made all the deliveries for 2020," he said. "About 35,000," he added.

The Kalashnikov chief executive announced in April this year that the gunmaker had made the 2020 deliveries of the latest AK-12 assault rifles to Russia’s Defense Ministry ahead of schedule. In April 2019, he said that the company planned to deliver 112,500 AK-12 assault rifles to the Russian troops in 2019-2021. Russia’s Defense Ministry announced on June 1 that the Airborne Force received about 10,000 AK-12 assault rifles during 2019 and in the first half of 2020.

The AK-12 was unveiled to the public at the Victory Parade in Moscow on May 9 last year when about 400 paratroopers of an Airborne Force consolidated regiment marched with these assault rifles across Red Square.

The new assault rifle is distinguished by its improved ergonomics compared to its AK-74M and AKM predecessors. The assault rifle’s upgrade has increased its accuracy of fire and the survivability of its barrel whose production is now based on new technology.

The AK-12 is outfitted with an additional equipment set that includes a domestically-produced collimator sight, which allows delivering aimed fire at a distance of up to 500 meters. The assault rifle also includes a new magazine that allows visually controlling the ammunition consumption.

https://tass.com/defense/1167817

Now all new AK-12 will look like the bottom one.

RPL-20, which is basically the belt-fed version of RPK-16

Here is a video with new AK-12.

https://kalashnikov.media/video/weapons/ak-12-2020

magnumcromagnon wrote:RPL-20, which is basically the belt-fed version of RPK-16

Eek, they should really consider having whomever is responsible for the design of plastic add on panels shot artistic treason.

Russian guns really stand out as Russian through thier stlye and elegance I really do not want to see Russian arms manufacturers abandoning this in favor of a filth wester plastech abomination stlye.

The old WWII DP28 with its top mounted round drum magazine was their standard LMG in 7.62x54mm... it was effectively replaced with the modified RP-46 that could either use the old 48 round drum mags or belt feed, but was in 7.62x54mm calibre.

Its replacement was the RPD with belt feed only in the reduced power 7.62x39mm round, but reliability issues meant it was eventually replaced by the RPK which was box/drum magazine feed only.

Their current LMG is the PKP which is not light but has power and range that no smaller calibre gun can match...

If this new gun is in 6x49mm then it might be able to replace the PKP, but if it is in 5.45x39mm calibre then I would say the RPK-16 is probably already good enough...

Really liking the Butt Stock on the new AK-12 then the older one. Good improvement.

Just a nice new video with the updated AK-12. c :

Flyboy77 wrote:Really liking the Butt Stock on the new AK-12 then the older one. Good improvement.

They are saying that they will implement it everywhere and it's much better than M4 style one. RPL has buttstock from this family.

Also, RPL has nothing to do with RPK-16. RPK-16 failed tests. It has more in common with SVCh

They have wanted a belt fed 5.45mm LMG for some time now... there was one based on the RPK-74 from the 70s or early 80s that was rejected.

According to Max Popenka, the Kord -5.45 LMG called Tokar  was requested for the MVD in 2010... 6.5kg weight and belt feed but it didn't go anywhere. In 2016 they requested a new gun that was dual feed belt and standard box magazine resulting in the Tokar 2 that Degyarev presented in 2017 and the weight requirement was relaxed to 7kg..... but the fundamental problem is that it is a 7kg LMG in 5.45mm calibre... the PKM is only half a kilo heavier and has much better range and power.

The RPK-16 is only 4.5kgs so it makes sense as an RPK-74 replacement, but a version that could also use belt feed or box magazines is what they want that is not much heavier...  Actually they seem to prefer belt fed designs and are prepared to drop the box feed requirement because a metal link belt is much lighter than a box or drum mag... on one of the links below it says boxes of 5.45mm ammo would weigh 4.8kgs and drums 6kgs for 300 rounds, while in 100 round belts it would be 3.9kgs for 300 rounds. Belts are also easier to carry and can be loaded with special cartridge loading machines and picking up 100 round metal linked belts that don't disintegrate when used is much easier than picking up all the links...

The 5.45mm ammo is lighter than the PKP ammo, but box mags are heavy and bulky and hard to carry in large numbers. Belts can be slung over shoulders or folded up in bags to be attached to weapons and are much lighter so while an RPK-16 type weapon does not have the fire power of a PKM it would be significantly lighter and the ammo would be lighter too.

Tokar LMG:

https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/russia-machineguns/kord-5-45-2/

The RPL-20 is an open bolt belt feed only weapon and comes in at about 5.2kgs but is still in early development:

https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/russia-machineguns/rpl-20-2/

And the RPK-16 has been tested and the results are driving the design of the RPL-20 it seems, so belt feed, changeable barrel and light weight...

https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/russia-machineguns/rpk-16-eng/

More info in the links...

Is the whole army getting theAK 12 assault rifle or just some divisions?

What is going to happen the AK 74m's in storage?

There will be a mix of weapons as usual of course but I would think most AK-74s will be replaced by AK-12s.

They use AS and VSS weapons too where suitable...

I have a question , is the Galil Ace better than the Ak-12/15?(especially single shot accuracy)

And overall , which AK's are the most accurate?i hear that the molot Ak's are the best at that due to their thick barrels and beefy receivers.

I mean what is the deal with everyone scoffing at stamped receivers?

I do not have much knowledge in firearms

Subdivisions of the Eastern Military District will be rearmed with a new AK-12 assault rifle

https://en.topwar.ru/181028-podrazdelenija-vostochnogo-voennogo-okruga-perevooruzhat-na-novyj-avtomat-ak-12.html

Which gun is better is an amusing discussion, but without any testing how can we tell?

Wow... sooo much whine...

The changes made make it easier to use and easier to attach shit to.

It was never supposed to be a revolutionary new system that would blow all other assault rifles away...

What a moaning

It is an upgrade of a standard rifle to make it more useful and more effective... the Naval Infantry and VDV are getting ADS rifles and the special forces are getting Kord A545s...

He is getting gear and equipment you can't easily get from Russia

Which leads me to believe cheap knockoffs.

And he says his sources. So in other words, forums.

Its certainly possible he's getting factory run-offs, or just items that haven't quite passed QC but could still be sold off to less discrete buyers.
Ultimately much of his complaints stem from approaching the rifle from the standpoint of a civilian user instead of the conscript soldiery it was designed for.
His whinging about with the fire selector is kind of amusing because its totally how a civilian user spoiled with thumb/index flick selectors would react, instead of you know, doing it using the classic AK manual of arms way with the hands releasing the grip and having the middle finger extend and manipulate the selector lever.

The real irony is that he is talking about this and that about small calibre modern assault rifles, but on the Ratnik thread he tests small calibre modern assault rifles and decides they are not effective against modern body armour except with multiple hits in the same place.

Have read stories of Russian soldiers in Syria... presumably special forces, getting hit a few times but not noticing it till they got back and saw the impacts.... I think the fire selector is not a primary concern these days for assault rifles... body armour technology is advancing and the Russian soldiers in service at home and on the battlefields are actually getting the new stuff... unlike older material like scopes etc which only seemed to go to special forces on missions...

I was a little bothered when I watched that video a couple days back. Ignoring whether the gear he's obtained is legitimate, the tests he ran (for the Ratnik stuff) seemed almost excessive. Real or fake, the body armour held up pretty well, and when you consider that a lot of real-world impacts will occur at significantly longer ranges, involving bullets in the ballpark of 5.56mm, all but out of sufficient penetrating power by the time they reach the vest. It seems adequate.

Now, back to the Ak-12 video. The author really seems to take issue with the apparent mediocrity of the upgrade (from Ak-74M to Ak-12), and goes out of his way to pin that point up as the center of attention. This bugged because there isn't typically an expectation that the next service rifle of a state like Russian needs to be ground-breaking. In fact, it's completely contrary to expectation. When you have a vast production line of service rifles, like the Ak-74M, you want to keep as much the same as possible when you finally get around to upgrading them. You want to strike a balance between making an improved rifle, and keeping production costs and momentum roughly similar.

But, the most irksome comment is about the selector switch. The whole design philosophy of the standard Ak selector switch is that you can't (or it's difficult to) switch it from the safe position to full-auto without first passing single-shot mode. Whether that's for safety reasons, or because they want conscripts to using single-shot in the event that they don't know what they're doing, is anyone's guess; Probably both; but the fact remains. It's intentional, as far as I know.

It ticks all the boxes for a standard issue service rifle, so I find it hard to understand the negative take he seems to have on the rifle.

EDIT:
I feel i should elaborate on this - "without first passing single-shot mode."
As in, the built-up force from pressing down on the selector switch is designed to push the selector passed the full-auto position, into single-shot; Which is the lowest position on the selector.