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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion

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    GarryB
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 09, 2016 6:27 am

    Rifles are cheap compared to armoured vehicles or aircraft or ships.

    They are going to need new rifles, whether they are upgraded AK-74s or newly made Ak12s or AEKs or a mixture.

    They have just spent a small fortune upgrading CK (Kalashnikov), and it is likely because they will be making a whole new range of weapons.

    AFAIK the VDV have already accepted the ADS into service as a new weapon for operations in or near water.

    The point is that they are working on two types of programmes... one is upgrades and one is from scratch revolutionary new gen design.

    We have not seen the brand new designs yet... and AEK is not new they submitted similar recoil balanced rifles in the 1970s in competition with the AK-74 and we know the Ak-74 won.

    The AK12 is a family of weapons which makes it more likely to succeed as an army weapon.

    And Ratnik is a soldier system it is not designed around one particular weapon or rifle... ratnik can be in service without AEK or AN-94 or AK12.


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 09, 2016 6:47 am

    BTW they are also spending a lot of money to improve all equipment and one measure of an improvement for a rifle is better accuracy over existing ranges and extended effective range.

    The addition of optics will further improve rifle accuracy more so at longer ranges, but they need improved rifles and ammo to achieve this.


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    sepheronx
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 09, 2016 6:53 am

    That was a terrible South Front article, and as I posted on the other thread that kinda broke their argument. Essentially, they parrot what idiots who talk about procurement dropping due to budget cuts, but as I mentioned time and time before, with evidence, is that procurement has not changed 1 iota. The procurement still stands at 23T Rubles and Putin stated that 5% drop in defense spending hit the other sectors and not procurement. I don't know why they keep parroting that, and only thing I can think of is their bullshit claims about PAK FA which was easily able to figure out why they chose 12 aircraft - since all aircrafts are procured in 12's it seem - Su-30SM = 36 in one order, Su-35S = 48 in one order, etc. 12 is to test serial models in use of Russian airforce and pilots.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 09, 2016 7:03 am

    Here is the Rostec link regarding modernization of Kalashnikov:

    "Kalashnikov" has opened five new manufacturing facilities

    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon May 09, 2016 8:54 am

    1. Both Rifles were accepted. And the rifles were A545/AK12.
    2. M193 rails believe it or not weren't a pre-requisite of the rilfes. The pre-requisite was optics and accessories.
    3. The US has changed the M16 at least three times (There's small but fundamental differences between the XMR's and the current M16A4) and with at least 4 manufacturers. They also have had deviations from the M16 (SCAR/HK416-17). They finally are testing a caseless AR18 design (aka Piston AR15).
    4. The AK74MR can't be seriously taken for granted as most of it has only one purpose, giving reserve troops a fighting chance IF SHTF. And as I said it already has a cost (dust covers are to be made new, front/guard are to be made new and spring loaded=more complex etc) and doesn't accurately solve the issues that are to be adressed. Ergos, consistency, impulse reduction etc etc etc. Basically, it doesn't make sense in the long run.
    5. Presence of absence of rifles at the 9th of May means little. The AN94 was at the parade last year, the rifle has been deployed...once, in Chechnya.

    NB: a lot of mixed images of different firearms (at some point it showed an AK15-Saiga MK and before a Vepr 12)


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 09, 2016 10:33 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:1. Both Rifles were accepted. And the rifles were A545/AK12.

    do you know if VDV accepted A545 or AK12 ?

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    4. The AK74MR can't be seriously taken for granted as most of it has only one purpose, giving reserve troops a fighting chance IF SHTF. And as I said it already has a cost (dust covers are to be made new, front/guard are to be made new and spring loaded=more complex etc) and doesn't accurately solve the issues that are to be adressed. Ergos, consistency, impulse reduction etc etc etc. Basically, it doesn't make sense in the long run.


    Rosgvadrya - Russian Guard is supposed to have modernized AK-74M - probably just because of high probability of hitting fan (Ukopistan/Syria/NATO aggressive doggies in EE an dsoon election and billions of US on revolutions/elections)

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat May 28, 2016 12:00 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:1. Both Rifles were accepted. And the rifles were A545/AK12.

    do you know if VDV accepted A545 or AK12 ?

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    4. The AK74MR can't be seriously taken for granted as most of it has only one purpose, giving reserve troops a fighting chance IF SHTF. And as I said it already has a cost (dust covers are to be made new, front/guard are to be made new and spring loaded=more complex etc) and doesn't accurately solve the issues that are to be adressed. Ergos, consistency, impulse reduction etc etc etc. Basically, it doesn't make sense in the long run.


    Rosgvadrya - Russian Guard is supposed to have modernized AK-74M - probably just because of high probability of hitting fan (Ukopistan/Syria/NATO aggressive doggies in EE an dsoon election and billions of US on revolutions/elections)

    VDV as it is has no say over MO (Defense Ministry). VDV would have wanted a lot of things since 45 years ago that were shot down "mysteriously" by state trials. Among them the many alternatives to the AK system. But it's OK.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat May 28, 2016 7:53 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:1. Both Rifles were accepted. And the rifles were A545/AK12.

    do you know if VDV accepted A545 or AK12 ?

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    4. The AK74MR can't be seriously taken for granted as most of it has only one purpose, giving reserve troops a fighting chance IF SHTF. And as I said it already has a cost (dust covers are to be made new, front/guard are to be made new and spring loaded=more complex etc) and doesn't accurately solve the issues that are to be adressed. Ergos, consistency, impulse reduction etc etc etc. Basically, it doesn't make sense in the long run.


    Rosgvadrya - Russian Guard is supposed to have modernized AK-74M - probably just because of high probability of hitting fan (Ukopistan/Syria/NATO aggressive doggies in EE an dsoon election and billions of US on revolutions/elections)

    VDV as it is has no say over MO (Defense Ministry). VDV would have wanted a lot of things since 45 years ago that were shot down "mysteriously" by state trials. Among them the many alternatives to the AK system. But it's OK.

    Like some of the bullpup concepts? I'd like to hear more on this.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat May 28, 2016 7:58 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:1. Both Rifles were accepted. And the rifles were A545/AK12.

    do you know if VDV accepted A545 or AK12 ?

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    4. The AK74MR can't be seriously taken for granted as most of it has only one purpose, giving reserve troops a fighting chance IF SHTF. And as I said it already has a cost (dust covers are to be made new, front/guard are to be made new and spring loaded=more complex etc) and doesn't accurately solve the issues that are to be adressed. Ergos, consistency, impulse reduction etc etc etc. Basically, it doesn't make sense in the long run.


    Rosgvadrya - Russian Guard is supposed to have modernized AK-74M - probably just because of high probability of hitting fan (Ukopistan/Syria/NATO aggressive doggies in EE an dsoon election and billions of US on revolutions/elections)

    VDV as it is has no say over MO (Defense Ministry). VDV would have wanted a lot of things since 45 years ago that were shot down "mysteriously" by state trials. Among them the many alternatives to the AK system. But it's OK.

    Like some of the bullpup concepts? I'd like to hear more on this.

    Bullpups were actually a one man affair in the Soviet Union. After Korovin had its design rejected, Only Korobov kept them alive.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 28, 2016 7:59 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:1. Both Rifles were accepted. And the rifles were A545/AK12.

    do you know if VDV accepted A545 or AK12 ?

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    4. The AK74MR can't be seriously taken for granted as most of it has only one purpose, giving reserve troops a fighting chance IF SHTF. And as I said it already has a cost (dust covers are to be made new, front/guard are to be made new and spring loaded=more complex etc) and doesn't accurately solve the issues that are to be adressed. Ergos, consistency, impulse reduction etc etc etc. Basically, it doesn't make sense in the long run.


    Rosgvadrya - Russian Guard is supposed to have modernized AK-74M - probably just because of high probability of hitting fan (Ukopistan/Syria/NATO aggressive doggies in EE an dsoon election and billions of US on revolutions/elections)

    VDV as it is has no say over MO (Defense Ministry). VDV would have wanted a lot of things since 45 years ago that were shot down "mysteriously" by state trials. Among them the many alternatives to the AK system. But it's OK.

    Like some of the bullpup concepts? I'd like to hear more on this.

    Bullpups were actually a one man affair in the Soviet Union. After Korovin had its design rejected, Only Korobov kept them alive.

    ТКБ-022ПМ forever

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat May 28, 2016 8:16 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:1. Both Rifles were accepted. And the rifles were A545/AK12.

    do you know if VDV accepted A545 or AK12 ?

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    4. The AK74MR can't be seriously taken for granted as most of it has only one purpose, giving reserve troops a fighting chance IF SHTF. And as I said it already has a cost (dust covers are to be made new, front/guard are to be made new and spring loaded=more complex etc) and doesn't accurately solve the issues that are to be adressed. Ergos, consistency, impulse reduction etc etc etc. Basically, it doesn't make sense in the long run.


    Rosgvadrya - Russian Guard is supposed to have modernized AK-74M - probably just because of high probability of hitting fan (Ukopistan/Syria/NATO aggressive doggies in EE an dsoon election and billions of US on revolutions/elections)

    VDV as it is has no say over MO (Defense Ministry). VDV would have wanted a lot of things since 45 years ago that were shot down "mysteriously" by state trials. Among them the many alternatives to the AK system. But it's OK.

    Like some of the bullpup concepts? I'd like to hear more on this.

    Bullpups were actually a one man affair in the Soviet Union. After Korovin had its design rejected, Only Korobov kept them alive.

    What were the other concept rifles that were the victims of bureaucracy? Nikonov machine gun perhaps, but wasn't that a personal project by the late/great NIkonov?

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    Ak-12 rifle

    Post  Arctic_Fox on Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:14 am

    Can anyone confirm if it's true? :

    "Kalashnikov Concern Discontinues AK-12, Replaces It with… The New AK-12!"
    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/06/breaking-kalashnikov-concern-discontinues-ak-12-replaces-new-ak-12/

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:18 am

    Arctic_Fox wrote:Can anyone confirm if it's true? :

    "Kalashnikov Concern Discontinues AK-12, Replaces It with… The New AK-12!"
    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/06/breaking-kalashnikov-concern-discontinues-ak-12-replaces-new-ak-12/

    Kalashnikov issued a official statement. It's true.

    Izhevsk CEO meeting prior that press release:



    Kovrov last friday:



    Yes you can tell is ZID, because they still think this is the rerun of the ABAKAN program.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:29 am

    @ KoTeMoRe Is Tritro29 you, buddy? Fighting the good fight I see.
    Arctic_Fox wrote:Can anyone confirm if it's true? :

    "Kalashnikov Concern Discontinues AK-12, Replaces It with… The New AK-12!"
    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/06/breaking-kalashnikov-concern-discontinues-ak-12-replaces-new-ak-12/

    Is this good or bad? Sorry I do not follow the program too well when it comes to the assault rifles.


    Last edited by OminousSpudd on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:33 am; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:31 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:Is Tritro you, buddy? Fighting the good fight I see.

    Tritro29? He's Russian. But indeed I follow his posts.

    To my taste, it's good, serves as a final end to the BS that they started with the AK-12. But it is sad to see the AK system being left for dead.


    Last edited by KoTeMoRe on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:38 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Is Tritro you, buddy? Fighting the good fight I see.

    Tritro29? He's Russian. But indeed I follow his posts.
    Oh I see. He's made some good posts concerning the Yak 38.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Gunfighter-AK on Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:37 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Is Tritro you, buddy? Fighting the good fight I see.

    Tritro29? He's Russian. But indeed I follow his posts.

    To my taste, it's good, serves as a final end to the BS that they started with the AK-12. But it is sad to see the AK system being left for dead.

    Can you explain the last statement there? I haven't seen any indication of different internals except for on the original AK-12 model, which they replaced with this "Modernized-Modernized-Modernized" AK-74M. Catch me up?

    Why would they go back to the old selector that "predates Christ" -- to quote a commenter on here -- and what looks like that AK-74M"MMM".

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Gunfighter-AK on Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:33 am

    Quick question here regarding the bottom tan AK in the photo. Who makes the rear back-up iron sight that is on that rifle? Any information on it?


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:52 pm

    Gunfighter-AK wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Is Tritro you, buddy? Fighting the good fight I see.

    Tritro29? He's Russian. But indeed I follow his posts.

    To my taste, it's good, serves as a final end to the BS that they started with the AK-12. But it is sad to see the AK system being left for dead.

    Can you explain the last statement there? I haven't seen any indication of different internals except for on the original AK-12 model, which they replaced with this "Modernized-Modernized-Modernized" AK-74M. Catch me up?

    Why would they go back to the old selector that "predates Christ" -- to quote a commenter on here -- and what looks like that AK-74M"MMM".

    Which one? Let me be expansive here.

    Izhmash started the AK-12 adventure with a travesty of a "new" gun, then moved it back to a more logical layout so to bring a more ergonomic weapon an a different standard on the tolerances and fit and finish (3D printed hand guard, a lightened, "self scrubbing" gas piston, well thought rotating charging handle to allow side swap for an ambidextrous use).

    And all this brought a rather good rifle with all the interest one can have about the original AK system.

    However thet used all their clout and connections to delay, stall and outright cheat the deadlines and requisites of the Ratnik program in order to have time to develop a rifle that would fit. Now that they have hit the bottom of this, with their weapon being not reliable enough and more expensive than needed.

    Also the recent "modernized" AK-12 is the AK (AD) 400, which is a short stroke system with a lightened bolt and real latch pulled straight from the Dragunov. That's why many posters (and I) have started to call the rifle AD-400 for Avtomat Dragunov. Then Kalashnikov concern goes full dragunov and resurrects the MA in order to build full all length rifles out of it...

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Gunfighter-AK on Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:01 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Gunfighter-AK wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Is Tritro you, buddy? Fighting the good fight I see.

    Tritro29? He's Russian. But indeed I follow his posts.

    To my taste, it's good, serves as a final end to the BS that they started with the AK-12. But it is sad to see the AK system being left for dead.

    Can you explain the last statement there? I haven't seen any indication of different internals except for on the original AK-12 model, which they replaced with this "Modernized-Modernized-Modernized" AK-74M. Catch me up?

    Why would they go back to the old selector that "predates Christ" -- to quote a commenter on here -- and what looks like that AK-74M"MMM".

    Which one? Let me be expansive here.

    Izhmash started the AK-12 adventure with a travesty of a "new" gun, then moved it back to a more logical layout so to bring a more ergonomic weapon an a different standard on the tolerances and fit and finish (3D printed hand guard, a lightened, "self scrubbing" gas piston, well  thought rotating charging handle to allow side swap for an ambidextrous use).

    And all this brought a rather good rifle with all the interest one can have about the original AK system.

    However thet used all their clout and connections to delay, stall and outright cheat the deadlines and requisites of the Ratnik program in order to have time to develop a rifle that would fit. Now that they have hit the bottom of this, with their weapon being not reliable enough and more expensive than needed.

    Also the recent "modernized" AK-12 is the AK (AD) 400, which is a short stroke system with a lightened bolt and real latch pulled straight from the Dragunov. That's why many posters (and I) have started to call the rifle AD-400 for Avtomat Dragunov. Then Kalashnikov concern goes full dragunov and resurrects the MA in order to build full all length rifles out of it...

    Yeah, I was heavily interested in the "new" take on the AK-12 (Phase 1; new selector, ambi variant). I was surprised by the return to the current layout (Phase 2, Army Expo release) and extremely disappointed about the change. It was a return to the norm instead of a take-off into evolutionary innovation.

    So, do we have any pictures of the innards to show workings behind the AK-400 / Avtomat Dragunov?

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:45 am

    Gunfighter-AK wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Gunfighter-AK wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Is Tritro you, buddy? Fighting the good fight I see.

    Tritro29? He's Russian. But indeed I follow his posts.

    To my taste, it's good, serves as a final end to the BS that they started with the AK-12. But it is sad to see the AK system being left for dead.

    Can you explain the last statement there? I haven't seen any indication of different internals except for on the original AK-12 model, which they replaced with this "Modernized-Modernized-Modernized" AK-74M. Catch me up?

    Why would they go back to the old selector that "predates Christ" -- to quote a commenter on here -- and what looks like that AK-74M"MMM".

    Which one? Let me be expansive here.

    Izhmash started the AK-12 adventure with a travesty of a "new" gun, then moved it back to a more logical layout so to bring a more ergonomic weapon an a different standard on the tolerances and fit and finish (3D printed hand guard, a lightened, "self scrubbing" gas piston, well  thought rotating charging handle to allow side swap for an ambidextrous use).

    And all this brought a rather good rifle with all the interest one can have about the original AK system.

    However thet used all their clout and connections to delay, stall and outright cheat the deadlines and requisites of the Ratnik program in order to have time to develop a rifle that would fit. Now that they have hit the bottom of this, with their weapon being not reliable enough and more expensive than needed.

    Also the recent "modernized" AK-12 is the AK (AD) 400, which is a short stroke system with a lightened bolt and real latch pulled straight from the Dragunov. That's why many posters (and I) have started to call the rifle AD-400 for Avtomat Dragunov. Then Kalashnikov concern goes full dragunov and resurrects the MA in order to build full all length rifles out of it...

    Yeah, I was heavily interested in the "new" take on the AK-12 (Phase 1; new selector, ambi variant). I was surprised by the return to the current layout (Phase 2, Army Expo release) and extremely disappointed about the change. It was a return to the norm instead of a take-off into evolutionary innovation.

    So, do we have any pictures of the innards to show workings behind the AK-400 / Avtomat Dragunov?

    So far ZERO, but:

    From the looks for it. You really have to think about a shrunk down Dragunov, albeit Larry Vickers that showed the rifle initially said that the only thing that had changed was the piston system that instead of being long stroke was a reverse short stroke. This isn't possible without a recalculation of  the expansion of gases as the short stroke can lead to de-synchronization of the feeding and ejecting. Added that the "dust cover" was really reminiscent of the Draginov Rifle (SVD) I don't think that it can be anything else than a smaller Dragunov. And frankly it's not a bad thing. The SVD is a tank tough system with a better recoil mitigation system from the get go.


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Gunfighter-AK on Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:58 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Gunfighter-AK wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Gunfighter-AK wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Is Tritro you, buddy? Fighting the good fight I see.

    Tritro29? He's Russian. But indeed I follow his posts.

    To my taste, it's good, serves as a final end to the BS that they started with the AK-12. But it is sad to see the AK system being left for dead.

    Can you explain the last statement there? I haven't seen any indication of different internals except for on the original AK-12 model, which they replaced with this "Modernized-Modernized-Modernized" AK-74M. Catch me up?

    Why would they go back to the old selector that "predates Christ" -- to quote a commenter on here -- and what looks like that AK-74M"MMM".

    Which one? Let me be expansive here.

    Izhmash started the AK-12 adventure with a travesty of a "new" gun, then moved it back to a more logical layout so to bring a more ergonomic weapon an a different standard on the tolerances and fit and finish (3D printed hand guard, a lightened, "self scrubbing" gas piston, well  thought rotating charging handle to allow side swap for an ambidextrous use).

    And all this brought a rather good rifle with all the interest one can have about the original AK system.

    However thet used all their clout and connections to delay, stall and outright cheat the deadlines and requisites of the Ratnik program in order to have time to develop a rifle that would fit. Now that they have hit the bottom of this, with their weapon being not reliable enough and more expensive than needed.

    Also the recent "modernized" AK-12 is the AK (AD) 400, which is a short stroke system with a lightened bolt and real latch pulled straight from the Dragunov. That's why many posters (and I) have started to call the rifle AD-400 for Avtomat Dragunov. Then Kalashnikov concern goes full dragunov and resurrects the MA in order to build full all length rifles out of it...

    Yeah, I was heavily interested in the "new" take on the AK-12 (Phase 1; new selector, ambi variant). I was surprised by the return to the current layout (Phase 2, Army Expo release) and extremely disappointed about the change. It was a return to the norm instead of a take-off into evolutionary innovation.

    So, do we have any pictures of the innards to show workings behind the AK-400 / Avtomat Dragunov?

    So far ZERO, but:

    From the looks for it. You really have to think about a shrunk down Dragunov, albeit Larry Vickers that showed the rifle initially said that the only thing that had changed was the piston system that instead of being long stroke was a reverse short stroke. This isn't possible without a recalculation of  the expansion of gases as the short stroke can lead to de-synchronization of the feeding and ejecting. Added that the "dust cover" was really reminiscent of the Draginov Rifle (SVD) I don't think that it can be anything else than a smaller Dragunov. And frankly it's not a bad thing. The SVD is a tank tough system with a better recoil mitigation system from the get go.


    Gotcha. So, when the MoD makes their decision, who do you think is going to win? The AD or the A545, or maybe a mix purchase?

    A1RMAN
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  A1RMAN on Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:52 am

    Gunfighter-AK wrote:

    Gotcha. So, when the MoD makes their decision, who do you think is going to win? The AD or the A545, or maybe a mix purchase?

    AK-74M is gonna win Smile

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

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