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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion

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    Militarov
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Militarov on Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:47 pm

    Arctic_Fox wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Huh, I thought AK-12 beat out AEK? Unless they a waiting on the other rifles like the A525 or whatever it is called bullpup.

    i've heard rumors about AEK be more close to be selected, and that both were selected

    Both will be "selected", however only 1 will enter full scale deployment.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:37 pm

    One rifle is still tested. The other one is finalized. There is one issue with ZID. It doesn't have the spare production to tackle à 50K Rifle production rate per year. It will either need help or it will split the order.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:08 am

    Heard Elite troops will get AK-12's with Ratnik gear for now.

    Regular forces will continue to use the 74 into the 2020's
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:04 am

    Care to share where you heard that?
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:21 am

    sepheronx wrote:Care to share where you heard that?


    I cant post links yet, unless I can break the link up and post it here
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:27 am

    sepheronx wrote:Care to share where you heard that?

    The entire Ratnik collection underwent final acceptance tests in late 2013. All the items of Ratnik (firearms, body armor, optic, communication and navigation devices, medical, and power supply systems plus uniform items including knee and elbow pads) have been tested and accepted. The new rifle was more of a problem until the government finally backed the AK-12. Initially only elite troops will get Ratnik while the rest of the ground forces will be stuck with the AK-74 into the 2020s.

    The section from the article. From Feb of last year


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:28 am

    Just name the site or send me a pm

    OK. So AK-12 was a problematic program? hmm. Anyway, it isn't detrimental since AK-74MR is enough but kalashnikov gotta get it together.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Militarov on Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:46 am

    sepheronx wrote:Just name the site or send me a pm

    OK. So AK-12 was a problematic program? hmm. Anyway, it isn't detrimental since AK-74MR is enough but kalashnikov gotta get it together.

    AEK however might be issued to some specialised units despite not being accepted to be used for Ratnik on large scale.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:55 am

    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Just name the site or send me a pm

    OK. So AK-12 was a problematic program? hmm. Anyway, it isn't detrimental since AK-74MR is enough but kalashnikov gotta get it together.

    AEK however might be issued to some specialised units despite not being accepted to be used for Ratnik on large scale.

    Typically yes SoF's will get unique weapons for specific missions. The AEK is more fitted for urban combat so I imagine them issuing it to There Spetz boys under limited production and maybe their newly formed national guard snce they will face mainly Urban combat where has the AK-12 is better fitted for all around use which makes sense for a Regular army.

    That's my experience with weapons and special forces
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:08 am

    Doesn't make any sense to send à newly formed unit in an area where the CT/SOF have been dominant. Also there's à fact no one seems to explain. Why the VDV would not want a gun (A545/762) that has been tailored for Its needs. From the size, to the consistency in shooting. Saying the 74 will soldier on, is basically having à look at the current stocks and understanding that there's enough of them for another WW. Basically from that PoV there is no need for another rifle.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:37 am

    They have a stated goal of replacing 70% of Soviet equipment by 2020 and something like 80-90% by 2025 so I rather suspect they might start gifting AKs and putting new models into production.

    BTW Ratnik is for everyone.... not just special forces... I would suspect special forces have their own version, but regular soldiers will be being equipped with it for testing too.


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:They have a stated goal of replacing 70% of Soviet equipment by 2020 and something like 80-90% by 2025 so I rather suspect they might start gifting AKs and putting new models into production.

    BTW Ratnik is for everyone.... not just special forces... I would suspect special forces have their own version, but regular soldiers will be being equipped with it for testing too.

    What they mean is the AK-12 is part of the Ratnik and regular troops will not get an AK-12 with it but will keep their 74. also Russia cannot give every soldiers Ratnik's before 2020 ether, maybe they will get half done or over that by then.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:42 am

    Ratnik is the standard soldiers kit and is not designed for any specific rifle.

    During development they had AK-74, AN-94, and AK-107 being used with the system... every combat soldier in the military will use some variant of the system and a special version will be for export too... no doubt used with different firearms.

    BTW they are making 60,000 odd kits per year starting last year so by 2020 the vast majority of combat soldiers will be using Ratnik...


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:36 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They have a stated goal of replacing 70% of Soviet equipment by 2020 and something like 80-90% by 2025 so I rather suspect they might start gifting AKs and putting new models into production.

    BTW Ratnik is for everyone.... not just special forces... I would suspect special forces have their own version, but regular soldiers will be being equipped with it for testing too.

    What they mean is the AK-12 is part of the Ratnik and regular troops will not get an AK-12 with it but will keep their 74. also Russia cannot give every soldiers Ratnik's before 2020 ether, maybe they will get half done or over that by then.
    Lol, parts of Ratnik are currently deployed with the contingent in Syria. You can see the PN23M's and other com goodies. Ratnik is meant as a tactical, modular system. You don't need everyone to play videogames on the field, the mass of the system so far will be optics, commo, weapons and consumables. Organic, low level BMS and C2/3 isn't available for people that have tried to use the system for ages, let alone Russia that is only implementing it. As a matter of fact, individual and even Fireteam BMS is a handicap.

    Also the main issue with the rifle is that it might well be that none of them gets produced or even inducted in service if the step forward isn't big enough. Most the things that were introduced with both systems (AK12/A545) are actually gimmicks. What is important is the tolerances of both systems that need to be fine tuned, the manual of arms that needs to be roughly the same and the availability of the system that needs to stay at least similar or be upgraded. With the current AK74, the last issues are basically concentrated around the tolerances and manual of arms.

    Whoever has used an AK as his service rifle knows two things about it. It's a damn beast to overcome. It has shortcomings on some areas but they aren't detrimental to the normal capabilities for a service rifle.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:03 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They have a stated goal of replacing 70% of Soviet equipment by 2020 and something like 80-90% by 2025 so I rather suspect they might start gifting AKs and putting new models into production.

    BTW Ratnik is for everyone.... not just special forces... I would suspect special forces have their own version, but regular soldiers will be being equipped with it for testing too.

    What they mean is the AK-12 is part of the Ratnik and regular troops will not get an AK-12 with it but will keep their 74. also Russia cannot give every soldiers Ratnik's before 2020 ether, maybe they will get half done or over that by then.
    Lol, parts of Ratnik are currently deployed with the contingent in Syria. You can see the PN23M's and other com goodies. Ratnik is meant as a tactical, modular system. You don't need everyone to play videogames on the field, the mass of the system so far will be optics, commo, weapons and consumables. Organic, low level BMS and C2/3 isn't available for people that have tried to use the system for ages, let alone Russia that is only implementing it. As a matter of fact, individual and even Fireteam BMS is a handicap.

    Also the main issue with the rifle is that it might well be that none of them gets produced or even inducted in service if the step forward isn't big enough. Most the things that were introduced with both systems (AK12/A545) are actually gimmicks. What is important is the tolerances of both systems that need to be fine tuned, the manual of arms that needs to be roughly the same and the availability of the system that needs to stay at least similar or be upgraded. With the current AK74, the last issues are basically concentrated around the tolerances and manual of arms.

    Whoever has used an AK as his service rifle knows two things about it. It's a damn beast to overcome. It has shortcomings on some areas but they aren't detrimental to the normal capabilities for a service rifle.

    Yes they are and I never denied this? not sure what point your trying to make this have around what 80k complete systems?.

    Russia's intention is to give their men full sets not parts of a set to each man this is what I was referring to. This again is what they want not what you tell me "they need" so I'll go by what they want if ya don't mind.

    I have nothing against the 74 its a fine rifle for what its meant to do, however again they want to replace it with the 12. So I keep that in mind, sure they will fine tune the rifle we will merely have to see how that goes.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:Ratnik is the standard soldiers kit and is not designed for any specific rifle.

    During development they had AK-74, AN-94, and AK-107 being used with the system... every combat soldier in the military will use some variant of the system and a special version will be for export too... no doubt used with different firearms.

    BTW they are making 60,000 odd kits per year starting last year so by 2020 the vast majority of combat soldiers will be using Ratnik...

    They want it used with the AK-12 at that point in time they used what they could to test the system but they consider the 12 the standard rifle they want to go with it. now if they can accomplish this we will see and the system is only meant for ground forces and related specs ops. I imagine airborne units will get some but over all that going to be minor changes nothing huge.

    Has for the export version? has that been announced if not. Not something I care to speculate on.

    BTW there is also a huge difference between what Moscow claims it can produce and what they actually produce sometimes. Don't get me wrong other nations are guilty of this but just because they say will pump out 60k a year doesn't mean they will.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:58 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They have a stated goal of replacing 70% of Soviet equipment by 2020 and something like 80-90% by 2025 so I rather suspect they might start gifting AKs and putting new models into production.

    BTW Ratnik is for everyone.... not just special forces... I would suspect special forces have their own version, but regular soldiers will be being equipped with it for testing too.

    What they mean is the AK-12 is part of the Ratnik and regular troops will not get an AK-12 with it but will keep their 74. also Russia cannot give every soldiers Ratnik's before 2020 ether, maybe they will get half done or over that by then.
    Lol, parts of Ratnik are currently deployed with the contingent in Syria. You can see the PN23M's and other com goodies. Ratnik is meant as a tactical, modular system. You don't need everyone to play videogames on the field, the mass of the system so far will be optics, commo, weapons and consumables. Organic, low level BMS and C2/3 isn't available for people that have tried to use the system for ages, let alone Russia that is only implementing it. As a matter of fact, individual and even Fireteam BMS is a handicap.

    Also the main issue with the rifle is that it might well be that none of them gets produced or even inducted in service if the step forward isn't big enough. Most the things that were introduced with both systems (AK12/A545) are actually gimmicks. What is important is the tolerances of both systems that need to be fine tuned, the manual of arms that needs to be roughly the same and the availability of the system that needs to stay at least similar or be upgraded. With the current AK74, the last issues are basically concentrated around the tolerances and manual of arms.

    Whoever has used an AK as his service rifle knows two things about it. It's a damn beast to overcome. It has shortcomings on some areas but they aren't detrimental to the normal capabilities for a service rifle.

    Yes they are and I never denied this? not sure what point your trying to make this have around what 80k complete systems?.

    Russia's intention is to give their men full sets not parts of a set to each man this is what I was referring to. This again is what they want not what you tell me "they need" so I'll go by what they want if ya don't mind.

    I have nothing against the 74 its a fine rifle for what its meant to do, however again they want to replace it with the 12. So I keep that in mind, sure they will fine tune the rifle we will merely have to see how that goes.

    Once again, I'll explain myself. As far as the AK12 is concerned the rifle will not be fielded as it is. It has still some choices to be made for MASS production. It still isn't worth the effort as as "new rifle" for itself. While the only "new rifle" is the A545 and that rifle has been finalized and is still strongly backed by both trials and elements which that rifle is aimed at, notably VDV.

    As for Ratnik. I leave to Russia the time, like for the US and France (two of the nations that went the furthest with Future infantry programs) to discover that multi tasking at individual level, simply deprives, at the current state of affairs, the combat units of their freedom of action.

    Russian MOD might want complete kits, but nations who've tested similar systems have NOT fielded them in the same level that the Russian MOD might want them. Basically, having 80K kits will simply be enough for 5 to six times that number of troops.

    The strong point of the full Ratnik kit will be the possibility to create a "node/hub" at the foot-soldier level. You don't need that on a 1/1 basis. the US tried to implement that in OIF and it failed miserably. Notably by lack of computing power. The channels simply got jammed by the traffic. And they were set up on vehicles, NOT individual soldiers.

    France latest Malian adventure with a rather small contingent (about 5000 men) showed again a very difficult adaptation or the FELIN subsystems and they have them since 2000. The systems are still too cumbersome and prone to bugs and kinks. Never-mind they're NOT foul and fool-proof as shown in the late Gao and Timbuktu battles that almost got French soldiers killed because bad feedback input on the BMS maps sent about 60 French soldiers straight into a Mujao position because it was marked as Malian Army.

    Russians are more than aware of this and therefore, the Ratnik package is modular. And the troops will use what they need according to situation. And I expect to see the BMS systems integrated at fireteam at best, thus one full complement of Ratnik surrounded by soldiers who will have 80% of its capabilities (bar BMS and C2 cap).



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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  BKP on Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:54 am

    ^ Yeah, what he said. scratch
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun May 08, 2016 8:00 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRhQJCYb7MU
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 09, 2016 6:27 am

    Rifles are cheap compared to armoured vehicles or aircraft or ships.

    They are going to need new rifles, whether they are upgraded AK-74s or newly made Ak12s or AEKs or a mixture.

    They have just spent a small fortune upgrading CK (Kalashnikov), and it is likely because they will be making a whole new range of weapons.

    AFAIK the VDV have already accepted the ADS into service as a new weapon for operations in or near water.

    The point is that they are working on two types of programmes... one is upgrades and one is from scratch revolutionary new gen design.

    We have not seen the brand new designs yet... and AEK is not new they submitted similar recoil balanced rifles in the 1970s in competition with the AK-74 and we know the Ak-74 won.

    The AK12 is a family of weapons which makes it more likely to succeed as an army weapon.

    And Ratnik is a soldier system it is not designed around one particular weapon or rifle... ratnik can be in service without AEK or AN-94 or AK12.


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 09, 2016 6:47 am

    BTW they are also spending a lot of money to improve all equipment and one measure of an improvement for a rifle is better accuracy over existing ranges and extended effective range.

    The addition of optics will further improve rifle accuracy more so at longer ranges, but they need improved rifles and ammo to achieve this.


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 09, 2016 6:53 am

    That was a terrible South Front article, and as I posted on the other thread that kinda broke their argument. Essentially, they parrot what idiots who talk about procurement dropping due to budget cuts, but as I mentioned time and time before, with evidence, is that procurement has not changed 1 iota. The procurement still stands at 23T Rubles and Putin stated that 5% drop in defense spending hit the other sectors and not procurement. I don't know why they keep parroting that, and only thing I can think of is their bullshit claims about PAK FA which was easily able to figure out why they chose 12 aircraft - since all aircrafts are procured in 12's it seem - Su-30SM = 36 in one order, Su-35S = 48 in one order, etc. 12 is to test serial models in use of Russian airforce and pilots.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 09, 2016 7:03 am

    Here is the Rostec link regarding modernization of Kalashnikov:

    "Kalashnikov" has opened five new manufacturing facilities
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon May 09, 2016 8:54 am

    1. Both Rifles were accepted. And the rifles were A545/AK12.
    2. M193 rails believe it or not weren't a pre-requisite of the rilfes. The pre-requisite was optics and accessories.
    3. The US has changed the M16 at least three times (There's small but fundamental differences between the XMR's and the current M16A4) and with at least 4 manufacturers. They also have had deviations from the M16 (SCAR/HK416-17). They finally are testing a caseless AR18 design (aka Piston AR15).
    4. The AK74MR can't be seriously taken for granted as most of it has only one purpose, giving reserve troops a fighting chance IF SHTF. And as I said it already has a cost (dust covers are to be made new, front/guard are to be made new and spring loaded=more complex etc) and doesn't accurately solve the issues that are to be adressed. Ergos, consistency, impulse reduction etc etc etc. Basically, it doesn't make sense in the long run.
    5. Presence of absence of rifles at the 9th of May means little. The AN94 was at the parade last year, the rifle has been deployed...once, in Chechnya.

    NB: a lot of mixed images of different firearms (at some point it showed an AK15-Saiga MK and before a Vepr 12)

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 09, 2016 10:33 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:1. Both Rifles were accepted. And the rifles were A545/AK12.

    do you know if VDV accepted A545 or AK12 ?

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    4. The AK74MR can't be seriously taken for granted as most of it has only one purpose, giving reserve troops a fighting chance IF SHTF. And as I said it already has a cost (dust covers are to be made new, front/guard are to be made new and spring loaded=more complex etc) and doesn't accurately solve the issues that are to be adressed. Ergos, consistency, impulse reduction etc etc etc. Basically, it doesn't make sense in the long run.


    Rosgvadrya - Russian Guard is supposed to have modernized AK-74M - probably just because of high probability of hitting fan (Ukopistan/Syria/NATO aggressive doggies in EE an dsoon election and billions of US on revolutions/elections)

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