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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Post  Austin on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:52 am

    Mindstorm as usual excellent post on this topic Smile

    Just some points

    Pk of any missile can never be 1 it will always be 99.9999 etc basically as many 9's after the decimal.

    So if Pk of 9M96 is 70 % against BM it is quite decent though not impressive , you would have to fire 4-5 missile at a target to ensure 99.xxx percentage of hit probability.

    Indian AAD that was tested and i posted video above has a kill probability of 99 % against BM target.

    The advantage of 9M96 missile is that it has a ARH seeker besides HTK very effetive in dealing with low flying cruise missile or target that flies low to be below radar horizon of S-400 radars , they can fly on top and can just dive down at the target using ARH technique.

    TR1 9M96 was always a HTK system surprised you didnt knew it



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    Post  TR1 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:22 am

    Austin Mindstorm means the 70% is a Hit-to-Kill percentage, the rest 30% is still a lethal engagement.

    I guess against conventional ballistic tactical missiles 9m96 has near 100% HK (well, in testing environment at least).

    TBH I always re-read the SAM stuff, forget it, re-read it again, kind of a cycle Smile .
    THats the problem with being interested in the whole military-technical spectrum.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:24 am

    Pk of any missile can never be 1 it will always be 99.9999 etc basically as many 9's after the decimal.


    Yes Austin , this notation is absolutely correct if we assume a number of attempt toward infinite the Pk will be even substantially inferior to 99,9999 % ,in particular for the effect of instances of mechanical/electronic failures happening ,on average, in the hundreds of launchs.



    So if Pk of 9M96 is 70 % against BM it is quite decent though not impressive , you would have to fire 4-5 missile at a target to ensure 99.xxx percentage of hit probability.


    Just for this reason i have provided the correct information.

    70% was NOT the 9M96 neutralization's percentage of the target tactical ballistic missiles, 70% was the percentage of direct hit ,by part of the 9M96 interceptors on the warhead of the those ballistic missile, in all the remaining 30% of the instances 9M96 has always destroyed its target through the shaped detonation of its warhead both in actual tests and in simulated "electronic" enagagements.

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    Post  Sujoy on Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:04 pm

    medo wrote:Any informations, how Vityaz project is going? It's all quiet.

    Right now the emphasis is on the 6 Pantsir units which will be joining shortly . The chances of the ADF receiving Vityaz before 2020 is slim coz the S 300Ps has at least two more years to go before it's service life comes to an end.So,I am assuming that the action will pick up from 2014 onwards . The Vityaz ( Ballpark figs .10 9M96E missiles or two 9M100 short-range missiles replacing one 9M96E missile) will primarily complement the S 400 and S 500 and the Morfey .Development of the new missile was held up as sufficient funding was not made available for the development of a new missile . This issue was supposed to have been solved by the middle of this year .

    Poliment-Redut , which is derived from the land-based Vityaz air defense system and uses the 9M96 medium-range air defense missile will probably be tested by the end of this year ( Almaz Antei's General Director Vladislav Menshikov had said in May this year).
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:32 pm

    Austin wrote:I was watching at videos of PAC-3 test and I found the missile to be very fast , check the videos

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT6DzaG_658


    Can some one tell me which is the fastest missile ,PAC-3 ,S-300PMU1 or S-300PMU2 ?

    BTW here is a video of Indian BMD test , the missile seen is AAD and has a top speed of Mach 4.5

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAyRhIH-9cE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX7NCLTqQ

    You no mention "9M82M" ?
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:47 am

    Pk of any missile can never be 1 it will always be 99.9999 etc basically as many 9's after the decimal.

    Actually PK or kill probability is a mathematical expression of probability and you are right that it would never be 1 but it can be so close to one that it can be considered one. The highest it can actually be is 0.99999999 followed by as many 9s as you care to put. 1 means it is certain to kill no matter what happens, while 0 means it is certain to miss no matter what happens.

    So if Pk of 9M96 is 70 % against BM it is quite decent though not impressive , you would have to fire 4-5 missile at a target to ensure 99.xxx percentage of hit probability.

    No, the PK is not 70% the probability of a direct hit... missile to missile is 70%, or 0.7. There is still a chance that if the missile misses (ie 0.3 of the time) that it will still destroy the target and achieve a Kill, but that probability is not calculated as in tests the target was always destroyed.

    Think of it in terms of the probability of a couple getting pregnant and giving birth to a boy. If the probability is 54% and they have had 5 children and three of those children are girls then the probability of the next child being a boy... is still 54%. The probability does not change unless the factors change.
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    Post  Viktor on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:51 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:I didn't find a suitable topic and I think this is related to the S-400/500...

    Report on the 'Nebo-M' radar (in Russian) which mentions that the state tests were completed in October 2011. The first unit is scheduled to be inducted by the end of the year. 100 units are planned by 2020.



    Has impressive range:

    According to the data of the developer (JSC "FSPC" NIIRT ") the detection range of aerodynamic and ballistic objects by 55ZH6M complex is 1,800 km, height - 1200 km.


    Arrow http://bmpd.livejournal.com/373597.html
    .
    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1 - Page 21 IqNEE

    More pics here: Arrow http://saidpvo.livejournal.com/86793.html

    Imagine 100 Nebo-M system on duties by 2020 along with hundreds and thousands of others radar system. Brings a smile on a face Laughing
    This kind of monumental and integrated air-defense network is not easy to comprehend and literally dwarfs all other air-defense networks
    together.



    medo wrote:Nebo-M will for sure serve in VKO and VVS PVO, so it will be connected with S-400/500. I wonder how development of Mars radar for S-500 is going.

    It is possible that MARS radar is actually RLM-S X-band AESA radar developed but not showed as a apart of NEBO-M system.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:05 am

    Gonna quote Andy_UA:

    "This may be the promised unclassified details on ABM development.

    In 2014 Russia should recieve first 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 ABM. It says they can be used with S-500 and S-400 This will be the first Russian missiles using kinetic method of intercept. It will be intercepting targets that are travelling at 7km/s speed. They are to be produced on new plants of Almaz-Antey in Kirov and Nizhyi Novgorod. Plants construction costs - $2,6 bln. USD. The serial production expected shortly afterwards. Specs to be higher than SM-3. New ABM's are different to regular S-400 airframes this why certain modernisation is needed.

    Ok so S-500 designation is "Prometheus" (the codename that was listed posted here previously) This may be wrong as previously S-500 R&D was known as Triumphator-M.
    This is most probably contorted should find a better source. Although this is not disinformation"
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    Post  Viktor on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:50 am

    Yup, it seems now Russia with S-500 is going for the pure blood ABM system capable of knocking out

    ICBM/SLBM as well as high flying hypersonic cruise missiles and probably satellites in LEO.

    Nice addition to S-400 Twisted Evil

    I bet those 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 will be heavily influenced by Antej 9M82 missile.
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    Post  Viktor on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:52 am

    Conserved S-300 in some warehouse.

    http://englishrussia.com/2011/09/06/the-land-of-mystery/#more-66309
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:34 am

    In 2014 Russia should recieve first 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 ABM. It says they can be used with S-500 and S-400

    I wonder if it is compatible with the naval Redut system.

    Being able to put ABM missiles in with an S-400 battery is interesting, and if it can be used with Redut will be even more interesting as this will be a standard RuN SAM launcher.

    7km/s is reentry speed for ICBM warheads so these can be used as part of a mobile ABM system that could be deployed anywhere.
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:52 am

    SOC wrote: The S-300V initially had more ATBM capability, being conceived in part to be able to deal with Pershing, but any advantage it had largely went away with the S-300PM.

    Digging and old post, but:

    1.) Would the S-300V not still enjoy an energy advantage due to the much larger booster of the 9M82?
    2.) Would you put the search/tracking/EW capabilities of S-300V/S-300PM and S-300V4/S-400 as roughly analogous?
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    Post  SOC on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:37 am

    1. An advantage, yes, but all that really means is that it had a bigger ATBM footprint compared to the S-300PS. The S-300V and S-300PM both had a 40 km ATBM range. As neither the S-300V nor the S-300PM/400 is an HTK weapon, the real driver behind a successful engagement against a non-maneuvering TBM is going to be the accuracy of the guidance system. They both have hugenormous directional warheads which require high accuracy to work the way they want them to work, which is targeting and destroying the actual warhead section of the TBM. Being able to basically vaporize an F-16 is a hilarious byproduct.

    2. No...the BIG BIRD E in the S-400 has about double the range of the BIG BIRD D in the S-300PM, and greater track processing capability. The S-300V does hold one minor advantage over the S-300P/400 series, the HIGH SCREEN sector search radar specifically for ATBM engagement. Separate and dedicated components can be beneficial, provided they offer something the other systems do not, even if it's just an upgraded capablity. In this case HIGH SCREEN offered greater ATBM search and track range compared to BIG BIRD A through D. Plus, newer kit will always have the latest ECCM odds and ends.
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    Post  Arrow on Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:20 am

    n 2014 Russia should recieve first 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 ABM. It says they can be used with S-500 and S-400 T

    So Russia working on a new another missile for S-400 against ABM target.
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    Post  TR1 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:04 am

    SOC wrote:
    2. No...the BIG BIRD E in the S-400 has about double the range of the BIG BIRD D in the S-300PM, and greater track processing capability. The S-300V does hold one minor advantage over the S-300P/400 series, the HIGH SCREEN sector search radar specifically for ATBM engagement. Separate and dedicated components can be beneficial, provided they offer something the other systems do not, even if it's just an upgraded capablity. In this case HIGH SCREEN offered greater ATBM search and track range compared to BIG BIRD A through D. Plus, newer kit will always have the latest ECCM odds and ends.

    Thanks SOC, sorry should have clarified, what I meant was "S-300V compared to S-300PM" and "S-300V4 compared to S-400", since these are the systems equivalent by era.
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    Post  SOC on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:44 pm

    S-300V/S-300PM: small advantage to the S-300V due to HIGH SCREEN.

    S-300V4/S-400: advantage S-400 due to the BIG BIRD E having significantly expanded capabilities.

    Doesn't mean that the S-300PM or S-300V4 won't be capable, far from it. But, on paper, if you want to find the "winners" between the two pairs you'll end up with the S-300V and the S-400.
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    Post  Viktor on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:27 pm

    Still waiting that 5th S-400 regiment they promised us by the end of this year santa
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    Post  Viktor on Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:17 pm

    Just the most beautiful pic of S-300V ever - wish could find in higher resolution

    so rare are S-300V pics

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    Post  Sujoy on Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:28 pm

    Viktor wrote:Still waiting that 5th S-400 regiment they promised us by the end of this year santa

    I suspect that the plan to deploy a 5th S 400 regiment will have to wait for sometime as a lot more emphasis is being put to launch the two major plants producing hypersonic missiles, 77N6-N and 77N6-N1, for S-400 Triumph and S-500 Prometheus. The 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 models with their inert warheads can destroy nuclear warheads by force of impact (a collision at a speed of 7km/s).

    And if this is the case it makes sense because as on this date the addition of a 5th S 400 regiment would have been good but is not actually required .
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    Post  Viktor on Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:39 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Still waiting that 5th S-400 regiment they promised us by the end of this year santa

    I suspect that the plan to deploy a 5th S 400 regiment will have to wait for sometime as a lot more emphasis is being put to launch the two major plants producing hypersonic missiles, 77N6-N and 77N6-N1, for S-400 Triumph and S-500 Prometheus. The 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 models with their inert warheads can destroy nuclear warheads by force of impact (a collision at a speed of 7km/s).

    And if this is the case it makes sense because as on this date the addition of a 5th S 400 regiment would have been good but is not actually required .

    No. S-400 production must not stop.

    77N6-N and 77N6-N1 are S-500 missiles most probably multistage missiles based on 9M82/9M83 of S-300V system.

    40N6 is a big missile for S-400 system and is said to enter production for S-400 system by the end of the year. Something similar was

    heard about 9M96/M/M2. So its not like Almaz-Antej does not have place to produce system they just intend to expand current one.

    With 56 battalions intended by 2020 and 9 brigades of S-300V4 Russia has no time to spare. Those things need to pop out on regular basis

    and S-500 with 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 is in no connection with S-300V4/400 production numbers and signed contract.

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    Post  Sujoy on Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:00 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    No. S-400 production must not stop.

    I am not advocating a stop in production . Merely stating that deployment of the 5th S 400 regiment may not happen in the very near future .

    Viktor wrote:77N6-N and 77N6-N1 are S-500 missiles most probably multistage missiles based on 9M82/9M83 of S-300V system.

    No, 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 are for the S 400 as well. The S-400 can currently launch the 48N6 and 9M96.

    The new plants are vital for the development of an anti-missile shield above Russia, since new surface-to-air systems are already entering service but are not equipped with new missiles.

    For now, the S-400 are complete with missiles that have been left over from the old S-300 systems. Their range is around 200km, whereas the S-400s are designed to intercept targets at a distance of 400km.

    The absence of more advanced missiles stands in the way of fully equipping Russia’s Air Forces and Aerospace Defence Forces with the S-400 systems. Only seven divisions have been supplied with such systems since 2007, with another 49 waiting to receive them . The missile shortage became even worse after production of the old S-300 systems was stopped completely.

    The design of S-400 missiles has not been completed either. The system should be fully compatible with short-, medium- and long-range missiles. Presently, however, only short-range missiles, intended for hitting targets within 150 km, have been designed.Medium-range missiles (up to 250 km) are still “raw”, and their design needs to be finalized.

    The S-500 system is basically a S-400, but with long-range missiles.

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    Post  Viktor on Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:27 pm

    Sujoy wrote:I am not advocating a stop in production . Merely stating that deployment of the 5th S 400 regiment may not happen in the very near future.

    Well Russian military stated it will get 56 battalions by 2020. Im dont know how they intend to get them by stopping or prolonging

    production. S-400 still uses only 48N6 missiles so I dont see whats the big deal with new factories as existing ones can continue

    producing basically missiles already developed for S-300 system. Its not that much important what missiles S-400 uses as new ones

    can be added latter with ease but what is important is that whole systems (Comand and control and radar systems) dont stop production

    and as quickly as can be distributed among existing divisions and regiments and brigades as S-400 will with its new command and control

    systems and new radar system add whole new dimension rising potential of the whole group.

    That is the reason why Russia while produces S-400 system in one regiment places only two batteries while its regimental

    command and control post can handle 8 of them. Than all of them are being distributed to a different location most needed.

    In such way Russia will in shortest possible time rise the fighting potential of its air defense brigades by 2020 and latter production

    beyond 2020 can give them more punch. Thats why I think production must not stop.



    Sujoy wrote:I am not advocating a stop in production . Merely stating that deployment of the 5th S 400 regiment may not happen in the very near future.

    No I dont think so. I think 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 are S-500 missiles only and S-400 is still awaiting 9M96M/M2 and 40N6

    which are developed for it. Even now I think it uses only 48N6 S-300 missiles.

    S-400 is a system that is produced even now so I dont see why should Russians halt its production.

    I think S-500 will develop itself from S-300V system and will mainly be optimized against ballistic missiles/high flying

    hypersonic targets/satellites in LEO with ability to shoot down other flying targets just as S-300V was.


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    Post  Sujoy on Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:45 am

    Viktor wrote:I think 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 are S-500 missiles only and S-400 is still awaiting 9M96M/M2 and 40N6

    which are developed for it.

    The 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 are currently being developed for the S 400 and at a later stage maybe for the S 500 .

    http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/tag/77n6-n/

    By 2014, large factories in Kirov and Nizhniy Novgorod are supposed to manufacture hypersonic 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missiles for the S-400 and S-500
    .

    If you look at it you will realize that as on this date or for that matter till the end of this decasde there is absolutely no need for a S 500 , which basically will be a S 400 with longer range missiles . So it makes sense to develop better missiles for the existing S 400 system.

    Aleksandr Konovalov states

    And discussion about the S-500 is questionable, it’s possible it doesn’t even exist in drawings
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    Post  Viktor on Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:57 pm

    Sujoy wrote:The 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 are currently being developed for the S 400 and at a later stage maybe for the S 500 .

    http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/tag/77n6-n/

    This is why I dont buy it.

    This article is dated 28/06/2012 - which means new LONG range missile for S-400 is developed which does not correspond well

    with your article that new missile is being developed.

    You have two processes in question.

    1. Long range missile being developed and tested (meaning S-400 which is said in the article)

    2. Long range missiles in development (meaning S-500 missiles no matter mistakes in article/blogger you posted)


    The new long-range missile for the S-400 has been tested


    The new long-range missile for air defense missile systems S-400 has been tested in a short time it will go to the troops, SAID on Thursday, RIA Novosti Chief of Staff of the Air Defense Command and Missile Defense Forces Aerospace Defense Minister, Major-General Andrei Demin.

    "Long-range missile for the S-400 is tested and will soon go to the army," - he said.

    Demin said that the construction of a new kind of army air defense comic (ASD) continues "the process is long," this system will be improved after the final formation.

    S-400 "Triumph" - a system of long-and medium-range new generation. It is designed to destroy all current and future air and space attack - reconnaissance aircraft, aircraft of strategic and tactical operations, tactical and medium range ballistic missiles, hypersonic aircraft targets and radar surveillance and control aircraft.


    LINK


    Sujoy wrote:
    If you look at it you will realize that as on this date or for that matter till the end of this decasde there is absolutely no need for a S 500 , which basically will be a S 400 with longer range missiles . So it makes sense to develop better missiles for the existing S 400 system

    I disagree. S-500 will have completely new radar set and new command and control. MARS AESA radar being developed (it is reported that is

    on testing) is being most likely optimized specially for S-500 purpose and those will be mobile ABM system much like S-300V was

    but on much larger scale and most likely connected with Russian EW radars and command centers.

    S-500 will form basis of new Russian mobile ABM and high flying hypersonic threats of the future.

    Well back in 2009 Zelin talked about S-400 and S-500 defining S-500 as a new generation of air defense systems designed to deal

    with the future threats.

    Well this is article from 11/08/2009


    Sujoy wrote:Russia to revamp air-space defenses by 2020 - Air Force chief


    MOSCOW, August 11 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will create a new generation of air and space defenses to counter any strikes against its territory by 2020 due to a potential foreign threat, the Air Force commander said on Tuesday.
    "By 2030...foreign countries, particularly the United States, will be able to deliver coordinated high-precision strikes from air and space against any target on the whole territory of Russia," Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said, referring to the potential for new hypersonic and space-based offensive weapons.
    "That is why the main goal of the development of the Russian Air Force until 2020 is to create a new branch of the Armed Forces, which would form the core of the country's air and space defenses to provide a reliable deterrent during peacetime, and repel any military aggression with the use of conventional and nuclear arsenals in a time of war," the general said.
    According to Zelin, all Russian Air Force units will be constantly combat-ready by 2020.
    "We are planning to conduct a gradual transition of Air Force units to a constant combat-ready status...and accomplish this task by 2020," the commander said.

    During this period, the Air Force will bring combat units to full strength, equip them with modernized and new weaponry, and significantly improve combat training of military pilots.
    Zelin said under the new concept, air-space defense brigades will be created within Russia's Air Force, and they will be equipped with advanced S-400 and planned S-500 air defense systems.
    "In line with the new air-space defense concept, we have already formed a number of brigades, which will be armed with S-400 and S-500 air defense systems," Zelin said at a news conference in Moscow.
    The S-400 Triumf (SA-21 Growler) is designed to intercept and destroy airborne targets at a distance of up to 400 kilometers (250 miles), twice the range of the U.S. MIM-104 Patriot, and 2 1/2 times that of Russia's S-300PMU-2.
    The system is also believed to be able to destroy stealth aircraft, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles, and is effective at ranges up to 3,500 kilometers (2,200 miles) and speeds up to 4.8 kilometers (3 miles) per second.
    Russia's Defense Ministry considers the delivery of S-400 air defense missile systems to the Russian Armed Forces a priority, and wants the defense industry to increase the production of these systems despite the current economic crisis.
    The fifth-generation S-500 air defense system, which is currently in the blueprint stage and is expected to be rolled out by 2012, would outperform the S-400 as well as the U.S. Patriot Advanced Capability-3 system.
    "The S-500 system is being developed under a unique design...and will be capable of destroying hypersonic and ballistic targets," the general said.
    Meanwhile, the Soviet-era MiG-31 Foxhound supersonic interceptor aircraft will most likely be used as part of the new air-space defense network, as was intended when it was designed.
    "We are upgrading this system to be able to accomplish the same [air-space defense] tasks," Zelin said.
    According to some sources, Russia has over 280 MiG-31 aircraft in active service and about 100 aircraft in reserve.

    LINK


    Those two systems S-400 and S-500 may end up looking in the same way but will certainly be two different system each optimized

    for its own role with radar systems designed for that role and missiles as well.

    In conclusion S-400 and S-500 are two different system designed each designed around its threats thats supposed to deal with and

    each with its own set of missiles, radars and command posts but at the same time all integrated.
    Viktor
    Viktor

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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:47 pm

    Is this the fifth S-400 regiment

    2 regiments around Moscow
    1 regiment in Kaliningrad
    1 regiment in Far East

    and now this one in Southern District?

    Russian Military District Tests New Air Defense Systems


    MOSCOW, December 22 (RIA Novosti) – Russia’s Southern Military District has moved a step closer to adopting the new S-400 Triumf air defense systems, the district’s press service confirmed on Saturday.
    Further successful target-shooting trials of the new air defense systems brings the district closer to the point at which the S-400 Triumf systems will be put on combat duty, replacing the S-300 PM systems, the district's press service confirmed on Saturday.
    The Southern Military District was created in October 2010. It comprises the republics of Adygea, Dagestan, Ingushetia, Kabardino-Balkaria, Kalmykia, Karachay-Cherkessia, North Ossetia, Chechnya, and the Krasnodar, Stavropol, Astrakhan, Volgograd and Rostov regions.
    The S-400 Triumph long- to medium-range surface-to-air missile system can effectively engage any aerial target, including aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles, and cruise and ballistic missiles at a distance of up to 400 kilometers (250 miles) and an altitude of up to 30 kilometers (18.6 miles).
    Russia already has four S-400 regiments protecting national airspace around Moscow, in the Far East and in the Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad.
    By 2020, Russia plans to have 28 S-400 regiments, each comprised of two battalions, mainly positioned in maritime and border areas.


    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121222/178332515.html


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