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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:45 am

    Viktor wrote:This article is dated 28/06/2012 - which means new LONG range missile for S-400 is developed which does not correspond well with your article that new missile is being developed

    The Article is dated November - 28 - 2012 http://izvestia.ru/news/539941

    and was reproduced in the below blog on Dec - 01 -2012 http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/tag/77n6-n/

    It states that the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missiles will be tested and have NOT been tested yet.



    Viktor wrote:I disagree. S-500 will have completely new radar set and new command and control. MARS AESA radar being developed

    MARS AESA radar will also be integrated with the S 400 within 5 years.


    Viktor wrote:Well this is article from 11/08/2009

    In this article Zelin says -

    "The fifth-generation S-500 air defense system, which is currently in the blueprint stage and is expected to be rolled out by 2012"

    But we haven't seen the S 500 roll out in 2012.

    Russian military expert Victor Esin says:

    “It is hard to say what the parameters of the new system will be. The details are still kept secret. If it is being created in such a speedy tempo, most probably, the new system will be a modification of the old one, called S-400. Probably, it will have some considerable innovations, but, still, it will hardly be a real breakthrough.”

    Viktor wrote:Is this the fifth S-400 regiment

    2 regiments around Moscow
    1 regiment in Kaliningrad
    1 regiment in Far East

    Isn't the existing deployment already something like this ?


    2 regiments in Nakhodka.
    2 regiments in Novorossiysk
    1 regiment in Kaliningrad.
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    Post  Viktor on Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:22 pm

    Sujoy wrote:The Article is dated November - 28 - 2012 http://izvestia.ru/news/539941

    and was reproduced in the below blog on Dec - 01 -2012 http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/tag/77n6-n/

    It states that the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missiles will be tested and have NOT been tested yet.

    Thats what Im trying to say to you.

    Its being reported that long range missile is developed and tested and will start entering production by the end of 2012.

    Other missiles that are still in development are clearly not meant for S-400 as S-400 will start to get its long range missiles by 2012.

    So other ones are for S-500 which is said to be in development by Zelin and others. Mentioning two systems (S-400 and S-500)

    clearly means you have two not one air defense systems.

    Sujoy wrote:MARS AESA radar will also be integrated with the S 400 within 5 years.

    Perhaps and perhaps not. Up to now we have seen reports that MARS AESA is meant for S-500.

    On the other hand we have not seen AESA X-band radar as part of NEBO-M system and besides battalion and

    regimental radar set each S-400 and S-500 battery would operate independent radar systems attached to it. In that sense S-400 and S-500

    will have different battery and regimental radar set but at the same time same radar set attached to it - like NEBO-M/Protivnik-GE/Gama-

    S1/Gamma-DE and many others.


    Sujoy wrote:But we haven't seen the S 500 roll out in 2012.

    We the internet forum military enthusiasm people will certainly not see everything being developed. On the other hand there was

    that Almaz-Antej report where was described as parts of S-500 being tested but system as a whole (and as it will be developed in baches

    with introduction and later added more advanced components) it does not make sense they will reveal system at the beginning of its

    creation.



    Sujoy wrote:“It is hard to say what the parameters of the new system will be. The details are still kept secret. If it is being created in such a speedy tempo, most probably, the new system will be a modification of the old one, called S-400. Probably, it will have some considerable innovations, but, still, it will hardly be a real breakthrough.”

    Right. Most of the forum people even today mixes S-300P and S-300V not being able to tell the difference etc.

    S-500 might in its essence have physical look the same but will certainly not be the same system as is intended for different

    goals. S-500 will form the basis of the mobile Russia ABM system intended for SLBM/ICBM/high flying hypersonic targets/satelites in LEO

    and other threats of the future.

    Reading to your quote first thing you notice is the author himself admits he has no idea what is he talking about and is more of a

    prophet in that sense.


    It is hard to say
    details are still kept secret
    most probably
    Probably, it will have

    and at the end there is magical conclusion based on nothing

    it will hardly be

    LOL





    Sujoy wrote:Isn't the existing deployment already something like this ?


    2 regiments in Nakhodka.
    2 regiments in Novorossiysk
    1 regiment in Kaliningrad.

    You are right althrow we are not sure if one or two battalion (making minimum requirements for regiment) did come to Novorossiysk.

    Im not sure but have feeling when Russian media talks about SAM system each time they mentioned SAM system they mean about SAM battalion

    while at the same time each time we read about the export specs of some version of S-300/400 systems and others it is meant of regimental

    set.
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    Post  Sujoy on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:12 am

    Viktor wrote:
    We the internet forum military enthusiasm people will certainly not see everything being developed. On the other hand there was

    Agreed ! However, it is also true that a couple of us if not all of us in this forum do have certain closeness with the military Very Happy

    That aside I do know for a fact that guys like Aleksandr Konovalov & Vladislav Shurygin are highly sought after in Russia & EU for their expert views and they recon that the S 500 is a bridge too far .

    Aleksandr Khramchikhin, deputy director of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis says :

    it(S 500) will be an S-400, but with long-range missiles.The S-500s will at best be created in 2020, no earlier. At present, and for the next 10 years, the chances of countering a massive NATO attack are very low: it takes a long time to recharge the S-300s, so in the best case they will only repel the first wave of an assault, which would be 100 to 200 targets.

    The point that I am trying to make is that for the next decade or so I do NOT see the emergence of any airborne threat that the S 400 cannot deal with effectively . If the S 500 does become a reality it's good news if it doesn't , not a problem . Maybe MAKS next year will provide us some clue about the S 500.

    BTW - NIC has released its latest Global Trends publication . It focuses on a whole lot of military issues that Russia may face till 2030 .

    http://www.dni.gov/index.php/about/organization/global-trends-2030
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    Post  Viktor on Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:57 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    Agreed ! However, it is also true that a couple of us if not all of us in this forum do have certain closeness with the military

    That aside I do know for a fact that guys like Aleksandr Konovalov & Vladislav Shurygin are highly sought after in Russia & EU for their expert views and they recon that the S 500 is a bridge too far .

    Aleksandr Khramchikhin, deputy director of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis says :

    I dont follow these man nor do I know who they are and dont care.

    Im just saying that you have military expert who says he does no know, he does not care, there is probability, data is not disclosed etc

    meaning he has much less info about the thing sounding like some prophet.

    Sorry just dont buy it, in that case Il follow my logic.



    Sujoy wrote:Aleksandr Khramchikhin, deputy director of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis says :

    it(S 500) will be an S-400, but with long-range missiles.The S-500s will at best be created in 2020, no earlier. At present, and for the next 10 years, the chances of countering a massive NATO attack are very low: it takes a long time to recharge the S-300s, so in the best case they will only repel the first wave of an assault, which would be 100 to 200 targets.

    This does not sound right. 100 to 200 targets - one max filled up brigade has 800 missiles and Russia had 10-15 for PVO and 5-7 for V-PVO

    counting only S-300P and S-300V systems not others. LOL. Its PVO was able to repel any NATO attack.

    No "expert" can claim otherwise.

    S-300 command post can be put together in a way it repulses any air attack not matter how big it is. You just need to asses situation

    correctly and put all the pieces of the S-300 system. Something like LEGO.


    Sujoy wrote:The point that I am trying to make is that for the next decade or so I do NOT see the emergence of any airborne threat that the S 400 cannot deal with effectively . If the S 500 does become a reality it's good news if it doesn't , not a problem . Maybe MAKS next year will provide us some clue about the S 500.


    Well high flying hypersonic targets, ICBM/SLBM (thats why it is stated to be Russia mobile ABM system), satellites in LEO and

    targets not meant for S-400.

    I hope MAKS 2013 should makes things clear. Well see. But If you see only 40N6 missile standing right next to S-400 it means other

    77N6-N and 77N6-N1 are meant for S-500 even if you dont see them at all Very Happy

    I dont know whats the reload time, but I think its not that much nor it is a problem as the whole system from the start was

    imagined to have mobility, shooting time etc way far below any other.


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    Post  Austin on Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:25 am

    S-500 will be able to simultaneously hit 10 ballistic targets with near orbital velocity - Air Force Commander

    S-500 will be able to simultaneously hit 10 ballistic targets with near orbital velocity. Told reporters on Air Force Commander, Lieutenant General of the Russian Federation Viktor Bondarev.

    He recalled that at the C-500 is tasked with responding to a number of new weapons for the class of tasks, primarily related to ensuring the defeat of both existing and future air and space attack, including in near space.

    "S-500 will provide cover specific regions, cities, industrial facilities and priority strategic objectives. System will be capable of detecting and simultaneously hit up to 10 ballistic targets flying at a speed of 7 km / s, as well as warheads hypersonic cruise missiles. in its combat capabilities of S-500 is much higher than the standing now armed with S-400 "Triumph" and its rival - the American system of PAC-3 / latest version of anti-aircraft missile system "Patriot" - prim.TASS / "- said the commander in chief.

    He said that in the S-500 is supposed to apply the principle of separation tasks destroy ballistic and aerodynamic purposes. "The main objective of the system - the fight against warheads medium range ballistic missiles, and if necessary and intercontinental ballistic missiles in the terminal phase and, within limits, in the middle part," - said General Bondarev.

    "By analyzing the existing technological advance and the momentum to solve problems facing developers - continued Air Force Commander - we estimate the prospects for the creation of the S-500 in a timely manner and in quantitative terms, the state program of armaments for the period up to 2020 as a very high" . "Although these issues are not perfect surprises," - he added.
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    Post  Viktor on Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:38 am

    @Austin

    Althrow this is an article that has said one and the same thing for God knows how many times, its is good for Sujoy friend to see

    distinctive difference between S-400 and S-500 systems.

    So basically we have.

    1. Ability to shoot 7km/sec targets
    2. Ability to guide X missiles on 10 targets
    3. Fight on ICBM and SLBM (most likely only when connected with Russian EW)
    4. Mobile
    5. Not S-400 nor its modification
    6. On time

    And here is latest one of the articles describing S-500 system.

    The commander of the Russian Air Force described the anti-aircraft S-500


    Promising anti-aircraft missile system S-500 will provide air and missile cover specific regions, large regions, industrial, and strategic goals. On this, as reported by ITAR-TASS , said Russian Air Force Commander Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev.
    According Bondarev, the complex will be able to hit at the same time up to ten ballistic targets, including combat units hypersonic cruise missiles flying at a speed of seven kilometers per second. "In terms of combat capabilities of S-500 is much higher than the standing now in service with the S-400" Triumph "and its competitor - the American system of PAC-3", - said the commander of the Air Force.

    The new air defense systems will use the principle of separation tasks destroy ballistic and aerodynamic purposes, the fight against ballistic missile warheads medium and long range will be the main task of the C-500. The complex will be able to destroy warheads in the terminal phase, "and, to a certain extent - in the middle part."

    Previously reported that the C-500 will be more powerful radar compared to the C-400. This radar can detect targets at a distance of 800-900 kilometers. Presumably, in a missile of the S-500 will be unified with a missile defense system in Moscow A-135 "Cupid" and probably the A-235 "aircraft-M".

    At the end of June 2012 it was reported that the S-500 entered service in Russia already in 2013, two years ahead of schedule. In the first phase the C-500 will use the interceptors from the S-400, but to the 2014-2015 year will be re-equipped for their own missile. In the future, the C-500 form the basis of a missile defense system in Russia.

    LINK




    So new we have:

    1. S-500 exists Very Happy (and is not S-400)
    2. Much higher combat capability than S-400 (again - two systems, not one)
    3. Ability to destroy targets at terminal and middle part of its trajectory: Meaning long range and HIGH flying
    4. More powerful radar than S-400 (logical as S-500 is not S-400 and has longer range rockets)
    5. Coordination with other ABM systems like A-135 and A-235 (newly developed)
    6. Bach entrance in the service (first missile will be its 40N6 missile)
    7. Other missiles (77N6-N and 77N6-N1) 2014-2015 is its own - meaning not shared with S-400
    8. Basis of mobile ABM system in Russia (as I was saying all the time)
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    Post  Sujoy on Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:57 am

    Viktor wrote:
    Well that article is clear example of the horrible and shocking reporting by Russian journalists. Vityaz is NOT S-300V4.

    S-300V4 is latest modernization of S-300V system.
    Vityaz is the whole new system that will replace S-300P and some oldest systems not the PM ones recently reported to be replaced by new

    Not just Russian but also Western media ( that quotes Russian sources ) call it the S 300V 4 Vityaz
    http://missilethreat.com/air-defense-forces-to-get-new-defense-systems-by-2020-2/

    NATO nomenclature for the S 300V is SA 12 while that for S 300VM is SA 23 .

    Viktor wrote:Althrow this is an article that has said one and the same thing for God knows how many times, its is good for Sujoy friend to see

    I agree that there are bound to be difference but Zelin had stated that the S 500 is a modification of the S 400

    http://www.webcitation.org/5iwm0VVYz

    The air defence missile system of new generation S-500 is the modification of S-400 Triumph

    also the S 400 can destroy targets in near space

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20110408/362299587.html

    Viktor wrote:

    S-500 exists Very Happy (and is not S-400)

    Earlier this year Aerospace Defense Troops Commander Col. Gen. Oleg Ostapenko told Interfax-AVN.

    Work on the S-500 SAM system is going to be scheduled. The work is part of the state armament program and will be completed before 2020

    http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=358711


    Last edited by Sujoy on Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Viktor on Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:27 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Not just Russian but also Western media ( that quotes Russian sources ) call it the S 300V 4 Vityaz
    http://missilethreat.com/air-defense-forces-to-get-new-defense-systems-by-2020-2/

    NATO nomenclature for the S 300V is SA 12 while that for S 300VM is SA 23.

    I see western media reports about Russian military as spam most of the time. They tend to take one information from some Russian source

    and than they twist it as they like and here you go you have an article.

    I stopped reading missilethreat about some 5+ years ago.

    Do a little research and you will found out Vityaz is a medium ranged air defense system that will replace S-300P/PS/PT etc

    systems. S-300V4 has at this moment longer range missiles than even S-400 and in that regard does not represent medium

    range air defense systems. Well reading all what you have wrote Im not sure you can comprehend scale of Russia air defenses.

    In case you do you certainly would not post something liek "S-300 is able to repel 100-200 planes" cozz you would feel the shame Very Happy

    (no offense) ...

    S-300V4 (at the moment longest range Russian ADS) vs Vityaz (medium range air-defense system)
    S-300V4 latest iteration/modernization of existing system vs Vityaz (completely new system)

    Here is an old pdf about the Vityaz (I suspect some things will be changed by the time it enters service primarily in the

    scope of number of missiles being guided at once and radar systems) - althrow this alone is more than sufficient to called it

    modern new generation air defense system.

    http://www.dtig.org/docs/MSAM-MRADS-Vityaz.pdf

    Vityaz alone not to mention some other it will be integrated with is designed to repel massive air attack at medium range.

    Igor Ashurbeili, general director of the Almaz-Antei concern's design bureau:

    Antei was currently developing six new types of air-defense/missile defense systems, of which he only named the Vityaz medium-range antiaircraft missile complex

    LINK


    And I will repeat once more S-300V4 has at the moment more range than even S-400.

    Vitaz SAM is an upgraded variant of the Soko K-SAM and is a design from scratch system


    Sujoy wrote:I agree that there are bound to be difference but Zelin had stated that the S 500 is a modification of the S 400

    http://www.webcitation.org/5iwm0VVYz

    Yes and I have heard Russian arms chief or some general cant remember saying that T-90 is just a modernized T-34 or something like that.

    The thing with Zelin statement was that I was trying to show to you S-400 and S-500 are two different systems. One is not modernization

    of other as both are developed with basically different targets on mind. They may look alike in some weird sense but they are two

    different systems and I hope you now realize that.


    Sujoy wrote:also the S 400 can destroy targets in near space

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20110408/362299587.html

    Yes and S-300 covers part of engagement envelope of the BUK-M1 system but is still not called BUK-M1 Very Happy Very Happy

    S-400 will have that big bang missile which will give S-400 a chance cover part of S-500 engagement envelope and as read from

    yesterday statement S-500 will at first have 40N6 as its only missile, of course right until 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 are good to go.

    Same thing as S-300P was primarily designed to destroy aerodynamic flying targets and ballistic ones as its secondary ability

    but S-300V was primarily meant with ballistic targets on mind with aerodynamic as must have but still secondary ability.

    same thing can be said to S-400 and S-500 where S-400 is meant to deal with primarily aerodynamic flying targets and ballistic ones

    (on a much bigger scale now) as its secondary objective and S-500 as a primarily anti ballistic missile defense with all others as

    secondary. In that sense Im thinking S-500 is a new evolution level of the S-300V system (my guess).

    Now this primarily and secondary ability is not to be taken seriously as both systems now (S-300VM and S-300PMU2) are highly capable

    against all sorts of targets but still to be on your mind what was Russians thinking back then.


    Sujoy wrote:Earlier this year Aerospace Defense Troops Commander Col. Gen. Oleg Ostapenko told Interfax-AVN.

    Work on the S-500 SAM system is going to be scheduled. The work is part of the state armament program and will be completed before 2020


    http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=358711

    My guess is and yesterdays report confirms it that S-500 will be introduced in batches but upgraded as development goes ahead.

    Its final development phase will be somewhere around 2018 as initially planed but prolonged or perhaps 2020 if all does not go well.

    Thing is that now Russians are claiming S-500 will enter service before 2015 which means that S-500 will not be the same S-500

    of the 2018-2020.

    I believe that early introduction before final product is ready is necessary to begin ironing out all the integration bugs and

    communication that might appear and problems of that sort. Introduction of bigger radars and more powerful command post as well as

    new missiles is not a problem after.

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    Post  Austin on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:50 pm

    So S-500 is a mobile SM-3 in making with better kinetic speed as they are bigger missile.

    At 7 km/sec interception capability against ICBM and Hypersonic Cruise missile this is as good as it gets ....the latter is a much bigger challenge , ICBM still are quite predictable.

    No other ABM system can boast of such dual capability specially the Hypersonic Cruise missile interception part it can be a very tough target to destroy kinemetically speaking and can stress the interceptor to its limit.

    S-500 new AESA radar will have a range of 3000 km and not 800 km is being mentioned.

    Missing SOC and Mindstorm comments on this new S-500 disclosure.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:43 pm

    1. S-500 exists Very Happy (and is not S-400)
    2. Much higher combat capability than S-400 (again - two systems, not one)
    3. Ability to destroy targets at terminal and middle part of its trajectory: Meaning long range and HIGH flying
    4. More powerful radar than S-400 (logical as S-500 is not S-400 and has longer range rockets)
    5. Coordination with other ABM systems like A-135 and A-235 (newly developed)
    6. Bach entrance in the service (first missile will be its 40N6 missile)
    7. Other missiles (77N6-N and 77N6-N1) 2014-2015 is its own - meaning not shared with S-400
    8. Basis of mobile ABM system in Russia (as I was saying all the time)

    Regarding point 2, it would likely operate with S-400 as whatever the S-400 is protecting will likely also require S-500 protection too and sharing radars and sensors improves the performance of both systems... plus you can combine Pantsir-S protection too.

    Regarding point 3 I suspect that would not be all targets at mid course... for instance TOPOL-M fired at european targets would fly very high due to reduced range to the target.

    Regarding point 5 it is interesting to point out that the fact that the ABM treaty no longer exists Russia would be free to set up A135 and A235 systems and upgrades in all four military districts as well as Moscow.

    The fact that it can engage 10 targets at once suggests to me that it has at least 20 guidance channels and each target will have two missiles guided to it... which suggests each battery has at least 20 missiles.

    Not just Russian but also Western media ( that quotes Russian sources ) call it the S 300V 4 Vityaz
    http://missilethreat.com/air-defense-forces-to-get-new-defense-systems-by-2020-2/

    NATO nomenclature for the S 300V is SA 12 while that for S 300VM is SA 23 .

    They are wrong. Vityaz is based on the small S-400 missiles, though reportedly with significantly better performance.

    S-300VM is Antei-2500, and has been on offer for a very long period. S-300V4 is the current domestic model that would not be for export any time soon I suspect.

    BTW Vityaz is a very common Russian name as it means Knight or Hero.

    I agree that there are bound to be difference but Zelin had stated that the S 500 is a modification of the S 400

    If the first S-500 missile is a 40N6 missile then that is the large S-400 missile, but the real S-500 missiles will be the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1... which just looking at their designations will be different missiles. I would suspect the 40N6 will be used with S-400 batteries too and could be the export model of the S-500 if China wants it or perhaps India, while the 77n6-n/1 will likely be the higher performing domestic models.


    Vitaz SAM is an upgraded variant of the Soko K-SAM and is a design from scratch system

    It is likely related to the two small S-400 missiles (with reported original ranges of 40km and 120km).

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    Post  Austin on Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:54 am

    Garry Sir , Vityaz is not based on small missile of S-400 but will be a new missile basicly a new design with new FC system and radar

    Merry Christmas to all my friends at Russia Defence santa
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:45 am

    It certainly will be a new missile design but will be based on the smaller S-400 missiles just like the South Korean missile.

    The difference is that Vityaz will likely come with much greater range performance than the two S-400 small missiles... likely 60-80km range for the smaller missile and 150-160km range for the larger model.

    I have read that both models will also be adapted as AAMs like the Morphei will be the close range WVR AAM for the air force and a short range defence missile for the Army and a CIWS missile for the navy.
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    Post  Viktor on Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:58 am

    GarryB wrote:Regarding point 2, it would likely operate with S-400 as whatever the S-400 is protecting will likely also require S-500 protection too and sharing radars and sensors improves the performance of both systems... plus you can combine Pantsir-S protection too.

    Of course. My point there at point 2 was to show Sojuy S-400 and S-500 are two different systems.

    In regard to S-500 and S-400 and Pancir-S1 I fully agree but things are much more complex

    When making air defense of some area that will defend air defense brigade (lets say for instance brigade of S-300)

    Russians attribute to each brigade of S-300xx for instance

    - S-300 brigade - of course
    - regiment or two of air superiority fighters (Su-27, Mig-29)
    - regiment of interceptors (MIG-31)
    - 2+ AWACS (A-50)
    - ECM/ECCM trucks (SPN-2/3/4,Pelena etc)
    - independent surveillance radar systems (Protivnik-GE, NEBO-M, NEBO-SVU, Gamma-S1, Gama-DE and other lesser)
    - other air defense systems (few to several regiments of BUK/Vityaz(in the future),S-125/200/ Pancir-S1/Tunguska/Stela/Igla etc -> with
    its own command posts, radars systems and radar systems for low flying targets etc
    - IC, radar, optical decoys and pneumatic targets
    - Brigade level, regimental level and battalion level command post that keep the whole things integrated at all time.

    It is interesting that such level of integration is not pyramidal in nature nor only redundandt (its design is extremely complex). It is

    designed in such way in concept and with such algorithm like artificial intelligence that if one of the command post is for instance

    destroyed whole system automatically and instantly forms new junctions of communication and systems continue functioning like nothing

    happened. In other words it is capable of surviving extreme punishment. Very Happy

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    Post  Sujoy on Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:57 am

    Viktor wrote:Of course. My point there at point 2 was to show Sojuy S-400 and S-500 are two different systems.

    Viktor, I do NOT dispute your point that the S 400 & the S 500 are two separate systems . I concur with you .
    Also I realize that a sub discussion regarding the S 300 V4 has started in this thread which probably can be moved to a thread dedicated to S 300 .

    I am saying :

    1) The S 500 in any of it's form or manifestation does NOT exist today , except in drawing boards . Remember the development of the S 400 started in 1997 , first test was conducted in 1999 and was inducted in 2001 .

    So , if there is even a prototype of the S 500 it would have been test fired now for a probable induction in 2015 .


    2) The S 500 will share at least two missiles - 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 with the S 400 . These two missiles will be fine tuned in the S 400 before being incorporated in the S 500 . Also , within 5 years the MARS AESA radar will be configured with the S 400 .
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    Post  Viktor on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:20 pm

    Sujoy wrote:I am saying :

    1) The S 500 in any of it's form or manifestation does NOT exist today , except in drawing boards . Remember the development of the S 400 started in 1997 , first test was conducted in 1999 and was inducted in 2001 .

    So , if there is even a prototype of the S 500 it would have been test fired now for a probable induction in 2015 .

    I think not you not me have liberty to speak about new generation of Russian air defense missiles being developed in Russia, more because

    me being 3000km far away from testing ground and you close to 10 000 km and no official information have being disclosed.

    As far as we know they may have already being finished and tested but until official word comes out we can only speculate and

    believe that missiles and systems said are being developed on time.

    Sujoy wrote:

    2) The S 500 will share at least two missiles - 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 with the S 400 . These two missiles will be fine tuned in the S 400 before being incorporated in the S 500 . Also , within 5 years the MARS AESA radar will be configured with the S 400 .


    You are persistent in you intend to some time in the future merge those two systems into one. That wont happen. S-400 will have its own

    missiles and S-500 its own missiles. Its like passing on BUK-M2 missiles on Pancir-S1 - does not make sense as BUK-M1 missiles have

    longer range than Pancir-S1 radar.

    If such integration of missiles and radars where possible between S-400 and S-500 than they would not be two different systems but one

    being modernization of other some time later and they would not called each other with different names like S-400 and S-500 but all the

    same as S-400 and S-400PMU1.

    But those two system will be integrated over command post in a way where MARS AESA will pass on data to command post which will than

    distribute the target and over lesser ranged units. So at the end Sojuy you will have you integration but on a slightly different way Very Happy
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    Post  Viktor on Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:05 am

    Interesting article like it was written by me .... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    Well and today is Russian air force day too

    Here you go.

    26/12/12 MISSILE BULB. RUSSIA WILL CREATE A MULTI-LAYERED MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEM
    December 26 2012.

    Lenta.ru report , December 25. In the next few years, Russia will start to create a multilayer system and missile defense. Its main elements will be anti-aircraft missile systems S-500 missile defense system and the modernized Moscow A-235, and the last line - active protection. According to statements by the military, layered missile defense system will ensure the safety of not only the capital of the region, but also important (eg, industrial) facilities in the rest of Russia.

    C-500

    Of air defense systems S-500 is now little known. The main purpose of the complex - the defeat of warheads of ballistic missiles of medium and long range. S-500 can shoot down warheads of missiles on the final trajectory. The complex will provide radar capable of detecting targets at ranges of up to900 kilometers. According to various sources, the complexes will come into service in Russia for 2013-2015.

    At first, they would use the missiles from the S-400 "Triumph". This was in February 2011, said then-Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin. In March this year, the Russian Defense Ministry ordered from Moscow Machine-Building Plant "Avangard" controlled anti-aircraft missiles for S-400, which can indirectly indicate the beginning of procurement of missiles for the new systems. True, it's mostly guesswork - what kind of missiles were purchased, is still unknown.

    Currently, the "Triumph" missiles used by the S-300, but for the C-400 is developing its own missiles and 9M96E 9M96E2 and 40N6E long range. S-500 missiles own - 40N6M, 77N6 and 77N6-N-H1 - will get most likely in 2014-2015.

    The new piece of information about the characteristics and long-term component of the future appointment of a multi-level air defense system has become known December 24, 2012 with the words of the Russian Air Force Commander Lieutenant General Viktor Bondarev.

    He said that the complex will be able to hit at the same time up to ten ballistic targets, including warheads hypersonic cruise missiles. The velocity of the intercepted targets can reach7000 metersin the second. For comparison, the first cosmic velocity (speed required to remove an object in a circular orbit around the Earth) is7900 metersin the second. The new anti-aircraft system uses the principle of separation tasks destroy ballistic and aerodynamic purposes.

    Bondarev also reported that the C-500 in its capabilities surpass existing Russian S-400 "Triumph" and the American MIM-104FPatriot PAC-3. In this case, the complex will be used for air and missile cover large regions, industrial and strategic assets.

    A-235

    According to the plans of the Ministry of Defense of Russia, with the time the S-500 system will form the basis of the Russian air and missile defense, and they, in contrast to the already existing systems, will use anti-aircraft and missile parts. The latter will be unified with the missile defense system in Moscow A-135, "Cupid", and hence a promising A-235 "aircraft-M".

    Experimental and combat-tested a new A-235 will begin in the spring and autumn of 2013. Moscow's new missile defense system will have to replace the outdated term A-135, according to preliminary data, "Plane-M" will have upgraded interceptors 53T6 used at present "Cupid." In this case, the new missile defense system will be able to carry both the kinetic and nuclear warheads.

    The contract for the establishment of a system of A-235 was made in 1991, and completion of the project is scheduled for 2015. The lead contractor for the project is "Almaz-Antey", created the C-300, C-400 and working on a C-500. Presumably, the A-235 will supercomputer "Elbrus-3M" radar "Don-2N" and two-tier missile large and medium-range missiles. All the basic parameters promising system secret, but we can assume that the system S-500 will, in particular, to communicate with the "plane-M", which will improve the accuracy of target destruction.

    KAZ

    The efficacy of covering the capital region, according to the Acting Chief of the Air Defense Command and Missile Defense Forces Aerospace Defense Major General Andrei Demin, 90 percent, and the Central Industrial Region - 60 percent. All these figures are to be improved by introducing a system of not only new systems S-500 and A-235, but also the active protection systems (APS).

    The principle of operation is based on KAZ destroy air targets with metal balls with a diameter up to 30 millimetersat a height of six thousand feet. In early December 2012 the source of the newspaper "Izvestia" the Defense Ministry said that the charges against 40 thousand submunitions will be fired into the side of the goal from a speed of up to1800 metersa second after the explosion and create a certain height "iron cloud" that can destroy any air target. Future systems will be used primarily to cover the strategic targets: silos, command and communication centers.

    The first tests KAZ held in the early 1990's; complex prototypes had the name "Mozyr". In particular, on the Kura testing ground "Mozyr" had shot at the warhead ballistic missile R-36M2 "Voivode". The tests were considered a success. However, experts have found that KAZ is not equally effective against ballistic and aerodynamic purposes, with less likelihood of damage was determined by the last weak computational power complex. Developing systems was discontinued due to lack of funding.

    In mid-2012, it was reported that the Ministry of Defense plans to resume work on KAZ in 2013. Among other things, this will require a more powerful computer systems, especially when it comes to the transport complexes engage targets. In the latter case, the computer will calculate the point of convergence of missile or damaging elements for flying at high speeds.

    If conventional ballistic targets, this problem can be solved very quickly, it is maneuvering complicated at times. By contrast, modern ballistic missile is equipped with not only individually targeted warheads capable of maneuvering, but false targets, the main task - to complicate the identification of a risk of nuclear warheads and their defeat. Own ballistic missiles (such as the promising Russian R-30 "Bulava-30") is also endowed with the ability to maneuver in the narrow range, complicating the task of intercepting the primary and secondary phases of the trajectory.

    All together

    Since 2008, Russia is developing a unified system of anti-missile and anti-aircraft defense, designed to integrate into a whole, not only its own air defense / missile defense, and the CIS countries. In fact, the creation of a system refers to the gradual blurring of the boundaries between the tactical and strategic systems and missile defense. Russian concept involves the creation of a unified system of multi-layered and multi-layered air defense / missile capable of hitting aerial targets at various distances and altitudes.

    In a prospective single system will include short-range "Tunguska", "Tor-M2", "Shell-S1", "Book" and "Mor

    При этом вполне уже можно говорить, что гонка вооружений между США и Россией, на время утихшая после распада СССР, вновь набирает обороты. США выбрали путь создания систем ПРО за пределами своей территории с основными позиционными районами в Европе и Атлантическом океане, а Россия - масштабного противоракетного прикрытия со своей территории. При этом разработка все более новых противоракетных комплексов фактически преследует только одну задачу - нивелировать мощь ядерной триады противника.

    В настоящее время рассматривать стратегическое оружие отдельно от систем противоракетной обороны бессмысленно - в Третьей мировой войне, если такая когда-либо и случится, условно победит владелец самого крепкого щита.

    Василий Сычев
    http://lenta.ru/

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    Post  Austin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:30 am

    What is not sure is how many interceptor S-500 system will have going by past experience i would suspect it would be two.

    One interceptor will be capable of taking out ICBM types targets ( 7 km/sec ) up in the space ( 200 km altitude ) perhaps using HTK/KKV type system

    Another intercptor to use to intercept aerodynamic type of target traveling at 6-7 km/sec but some where in high or middle atmosphere but using Warhead/HTK type system.


    The dynamics involving intercepting targets in Atmosphere and in Space are entirely difference needing ideally two different interceptor

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    Post  Viktor on Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:29 am

    Im thinking the same.

    Two missiles wheres one will have HKV for targets in space and other directional for targets in earth athmosphere but which can

    help its bigger brother with targets during terminal trajectory within atmosphere. We could both be wrong but this is guessing.

    What is interesting here is info that S-500 system will be able to guide missile to 10 targets at the same time.

    Now when Russian are officialy referring to for instance S-300V air defense system than they mean S-300V regiment consisting of up to

    4 S-300V battalions/batteries. So official data given for S-300V its guidance numbers etc refers to whole regiment meaning for

    instance that S-300V regiment consisting of 4 S-400V battalions is able to shoot 24 targets with twice as missiles.

    Now we have statements referreing as S-500 will be able to shoot 10 targets with x missiles.

    Now I believe this might be just as case as with S-300V meaning S-500 regiment consisting of 3-4 battalions will be able to shoot

    10 targets with x missiles and that will make sense as its targets will probably be much more complex to calculate even with new

    technology applied. Still that means for instance one brigade of S-500 would have capability to guide x missiles on 30 ICBM targets

    while S-400/S-300V4 would deal with MRBM/IRBM etc making multilayered mobile ABM.

    Some time in the near future for the same amount of money needed to make ICBM and its carriers will cost to make ABM system against it.

    At that point ABM system will become conomically efficient no matter the amount the money. No matter amount of money in questing.

    At that point panic will erupt as all world will want to have one and chances to reastablish MAD is gone for ever.
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    Post  Austin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:00 pm

    Came across this Official Ratheyon video which shows USN Tomahawk Block 4 targeting RuN Cruiser and S-300 batteries

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wluabEE1ls8


    The capabilities of block 4 like loitering capability over target , Satcom communication and inflight retargetting are very nice , wish some day RuN Club has it as well

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:23 am

    What is not sure is how many interceptor S-500 system will have going by past experience i would suspect it would be two.

    In articles posted above the initial missile will be the 40N6 missile and the other missiles will be the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 so I would say there will be three missiles.

    The hit to kill warhead means the warhead must be able to manouver... and to do that is needs basically side rocket thrusters like a space ship... aerodynamic surfaces don't work fast enough inside the atmosphere and don't work at all outside the atmosphere.
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    Post  Austin on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:58 am

    The 40N6 is more of S-400 missile it can engage target corresponding to speed of 4.8 Km/sec

    The 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missile for S-500 is claimed by Izvestiya and I would take any news from it with a truck load of salt except for interviews
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    Post  Sujoy on Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:09 am

    Viktor wrote: At that point ABM system will become conomically efficient no matter the amount the money. No matter amount of money in questing.

    At that point panic will erupt as all world will want to have one and chances to reastablish MAD is gone for ever.

    Maybe , possible scenario.

    Regarding the idea of penetrating or suppressing missiles defence system. There are different approaches :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetration_aid

    If missile uses stealth technologhy, it can be detected by using radar with higher power aperture product and more intellegent tracking algorithms or using bistatic radars , if missile launches chaff, it can be detected by doppler processing, if missile launches mylar balloon, it can be detected by exploiting kinematic difference between balloon and warheads and also polarimetric signature of balloon and warheads.

    Firstly, if I launch a big missile containing 1-2 m lengths UAVs with and if this big missile is able to launch these jammers before destruction, I get a great advantage in penetrating missile defense system. Once I get this advantage, I can send other missiles with warheads using stealth and/or shaff .
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    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:32 pm

    Update on S 400 and S 500 ( Rossiyskaya Gazeta - Jan-09-2013 )

    After shutting down production of the S-300 missile defense system, Russia is moving to equip its new S-400 and S-500 systems with hypersonic missiles. A shortage of more advanced missiles, however, stands in the way of the Ministry of Defense’s plans.

    Russia is planning to open two major plants to produce much-needed advanced hypersonic missiles, but experts suggest that the country will be unable to counter a massive NATO attack for the next 10 years.
    By 2014, Russia will launch two major plants to produce the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 hypersonic missiles for its state-of-the-art anti-missile defense systems – S-400 “Triumph” and S-500 “Prometheus.”
    The Ministry of Defense has officially announced that, “with these missiles, surface-to-air missile systems will be able to bring down any target flying at a speed of up to 7 kilometers per second, including nuclear warheads of ballistic missiles.”

    The S-500 system has yet to be completed, while its S-400 predecessor can currently launch the older 48N6 and 9M96 missiles.

    The 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 models will be the first Russian missiles with inert warheads, which can destroy nuclear warheads by force of impact (i.e., by hitting them with precision at great speed). No explosives are needed: engineers’ estimates show that a collision at a speed of 7 kilometers (4.3 miles) per second would be sure to destroy just about any flying object.

    The new plants are vital for the development of an anti-missile shield above Russia, since new surface-to-air systems are already entering service unequipped with new missiles.
    For now, the “Triumph” (S-400) defense system is complete with missiles that have been left over from the old S-300 systems. Their range is around 124 miles, whereas the S-400s are designed to intercept targets at a distance of about 250 miles.

    The absence of more advanced missiles stands in the way of fully equipping Russia’s Air Forces and Aerospace Defense Forces with the S-400 systems. Only seven divisions have been supplied with such systems since 2007, with another 49 waiting to receive them, according to official data.

    The missile shortage became even worse after production of the old S-300 systems was halted completely.
    “The last S-300 was produced for the Russian army in 1994 or so,” says Igor Ashurbeili, co-chairman of an expert council on aerospace defense and former chief designer at the Russian defense company Almaz-Antey. “Since then, Russia has only produced these systems for sale. But now even export orders for the S-300s have been suspended.”
    Indeed, Moscow turned down a contract with Iran back in 2010, losing $800 million. Production was completely shut down after rolling out the last S-300 division intended for export, which is to be supplied to Algeria soon. One of the problems faced by the Russian defense industry is that it stopped accepting orders for the S-300s, but has not started to take orders for the S-400s, says Ashurbeili.

    The design of S-400 missiles has not been completed either. The system should be fully compatible with short-, medium- and long-range missiles. Presently, however, only short-range missiles intended for hitting targets within 95 miles have been designed without problems. Medium-range missiles (up to 155 miles) are still “raw,” and their design needs to be finalized.

    The long-range missiles are non-existent, even though such a missile would be a serious hindrance to potential enemy vehicles, including Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS). Without these missiles, the S-400 cannot fulfill its purpose – engaging targets at a long range.

    As for the future S-500 system, it will be an S-400 with long-range missiles, according to Alexanderf Khramchikhin, deputy director of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis.
    “The S-500s will at best be created in 2020 – no earlier. At present, and for the next 10 years, the chances of countering a massive NATO attack are very low: it takes a long time to recharge the S-300s, so, in the best case, they will only repel the first wave of an assault, which would be 100 to 200 targets,” says Khramchikhin.
    Military expert Vladislav Shurygin agrees with Khramchikhin. “For now, the S-500 is an ephemeral dream, and no one knows if it will ever come true,” he said.

    Even though the S-300s need to be replaced, there is simply no replacement for them. This is why Almaz-Antey is faced with some very important tasks. “Handling them will determine the future not only of the anti-missile defense system, but also of the country as a whole,” says Shurygin. The company is still capable of manufacturing high-quality products, but it needs to modernize its technologies and refurbish its production facilities quickly.
    In other words, the production of modern aerospace defense weaponry is a comprehensive task which requires major technological innovations and modernization of existing production facilities.

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    Post  AJ-47 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:15 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]


    The hit to kill warhead means the warhead must be able to manouver... and to do that is needs basically side rocket thrusters like a space ship... aerodynamic surfaces don't work fast enough inside the atmosphere and don't work at all outside the atmosphere.
    not exactly look who the Israeli doing that:
    Israel tests Arrow 3 anti-ballistic missile system
    25 January 2012

    The Israeli Defence Ministry has completed testing of the Arrow 3 anti-ballistic missile system designed to protect the nation against long-range ballistic missile threats in the stratosphere.

    A model of the interceptor missile was launched during the testing in order to check the propulsion system, as well as other tracking sensors. An upgraded version of the Arrow 2 defence system, Arrow 3 is designed to intercept long-range missiles including intermediate-range ballistic missiles at altitudes of over 100km as well as those equipped with non-conventional warheads.

    Developed through a joint effort between the Israel Missile Defense Organization and the US Missile Defense Agency since 2002, the Arrow 3 features capabilities similar to the systems present on the US Aegis destroyers and is able to intercept missiles at great altitudes and distances. Arrow 3 is capable of intercepting missiles from land as well as from sea, thereby improving the destroyer's capabilities in terms of missile-interception altitude and its degree of operational flexibility.

    The system features an Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Boeing-developed Exoatmospheric interceptor based on hit-to-kill technology and is propelled by an ordinary rocket motor equipped with a thrust-vectoring nozzle as opposed to most kill vehicles, which use liquid or gas propulsion. The advanced sensors to be integrated into Israel's future multi-tier system include airborne electro-optical sensors deployed on high-flying unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and future enhanced Green Pine radars, as well as the AN/TPY-2 radar already deployed in Israel.

    Preliminary testing on the missile, conducted by the prime contractor IAI, began in 2011 and the development is expected to continue until the system is declared operational in 2014.

    Image: Israel tests the Arrow 3 anti-ballistic missile system, an upgraded version of the Arrow 2 theatre ballistic missile defence system.

    http://www.army-technology.com/news/newsisrael-tests-arrow-3-anti-ballistic-missile-system




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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:19 am

    At present, and for the next 10 years, the chances of countering a massive NATO attack are very low: it takes a long time to recharge the S-300s, so, in the best case, they will only repel the first wave of an assault, which would be 100 to 200 targets,” says Khramchikhin.

    A NATO coalition of the stupid would collapse if 200 of its planes was shot down... more importantly that is just the air defence forces protecting Russia... it doesn't allow for enemy assets shot down by Russian Air Force and Army and Navy units, let alone enemy forces engaged by Iskander and other systems.

    I would say Russia is quite safe from NATO attack for the next ten years and for the ten years after that...

    an ordinary rocket motor equipped with a thrust-vectoring nozzle as opposed to most kill vehicles, which use liquid or gas propulsion.

    Thrust vectoring... basically what I said... at very high altitude conventional fin or wing surfaces are useless and you need rocket propulsion. Side thruster rockets is one option, vector controlled nozzles is another.

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