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    Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

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    sweartome123

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  sweartome123 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:15 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:It should be common knowledge by now that Russia is a participant in this war. It doesn't take much to find photos, stories (non-MSM), and information that points to Russian involvement. That being said, their performance against the Ukrainians has been quite good. Looking at the estimated casualties, Russia has lost only a couple hundred men since August of last year while the Ukrainians have lost well over 4,000 troops (military/volunteer battalions) since the start of the conflict. Russia has probably inflicted 75% of Ukraine's casualties given that Russian troops played a large part in the major Ukrainian defeats at Ilovaisk and Debaltseve, in which we all know thousands of Ukrainian troops were killed. This is just my opinion, but I'm basing it on my own research, not the "Russia invades Ukraine with 20,000,000 Ukrainian baby killer super soldiers" bullshit.
    Russia could not hide a couple hundred in loses. Field hospitals could not handle that and it would be extremely difficult to keep everybody quiet. It be very hard to cover up that many WIAs let alone KIAs nowadays with social media and everything, Western MSM keeps trying to do just that while making some impressive logical leaps along the way. Russia sent in a small amount of troops to begin with and they lost very few men. Their ability to inflict such devastating losses comes from their vastly superior technology, training, and their uniformity. A modern army well versed in conventional warfare would have little trouble bulldozing the Ukrops at Ilovaisk, only ones really capable of that is Russia and the US, most other modern armies are too focused on asymmetric warfare.

    I disagree. First of all, Russia's casualties have been low throughout the conflict (less than one a day). Secondly, soldiers and their families are likely receiving cash to not disclose their deployments and experiences. Yet, information detailing such can be found in interviews and on VK accounts. Regarding the remainder of your post, I undoubtedly agree. Simply put, Russian troops are leaps and bounds better than anything the Ukrainians can produce. No American or NATO training will help the Ukrainians become an effective fighting force. Such training did not help the Georgians back in 2008.
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    sweartome123

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  sweartome123 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:18 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:It should be common knowledge by now that Russia is a participant in this war. It doesn't take much to find photos, stories (non-MSM), and information that points to Russian involvement. That being said, their performance against the Ukrainians has been quite good. Looking at the estimated casualties, Russia has lost only a couple hundred men since August of last year while the Ukrainians have lost well over 4,000 troops (military/volunteer battalions) since the start of the conflict. Russia has probably inflicted 75% of Ukraine's casualties given that Russian troops played a large part in the major Ukrainian defeats at Ilovaisk and Debaltseve, in which we all know thousands of Ukrainian troops were killed. This is just my opinion, but I'm basing it on my own research, not the "Russia invades Ukraine with 20,000,000 Ukrainian baby killer super soldiers" bullshit.

    We don't know the Ukrainian losses.
    We don't know the Russian losses.

    This debate is worth a speculaton or two, but casulaty ratio is way too clouded. I too thought the performance of actual Russian troops has been outstanding? However, the reality is also that beyond the political will, the log train is severly hampered (this is a political choice, but could be partly related to the fact that Russia is trying to find its oldest stocks regarding SOME ammunition, especially Rockets and ATGM). And then they used Kornets like they were ice cream back in August.

    However, I'd say that Russian input has only been so limited that on itself it has helped tip tactical situations, that were badly woven by the UA leadership. For instance the cauldrons were mostly created because of a very poor logistic route from UA, they were trying to bypass hard points, as fast as possible as to try and seal the border, that meant that instead of really blocking the NAF on its tracks, they tried to exploit and divide Luhansk from Donetsk. From there on, the logic is simple, when you have left very few people to defend your flanks, or outright let that to paramilitary organizations, you are going to get Bear Love. Once you get stopped at Illovaisk (by Militia), your position is known and the area can be treated accordingly. We all know the results of the first push for Illovaisk. Caught in the open, UA troops were minced. The Izvarino battle same stupid idea of trying to hold on corridors when there's no one to get through them.

    What is really amazing is the fact that Russian military leadership has done some homework. That's what gets these fight ugly. The difference in leadership is right now abysmal.

    Add to that preparation, Ukrainians still ignore clear lign of sight. Look at most their entrechements. Very little interconnection. This looks like FOB's popping everywhere, but without the rest of the support tools a NATO FOB usually gets.

    2 to 3 hundres losses, that's basically less than one a day. Add the typical 1/3 for offensive ops, and 1/4 for defensive ops you got at best about 1200 casualties (KIA/WIA) All in all compared to about 15K casualties from UA (KIA/WIA/MIA) that's heavy. Now there's the NAF losses. That's something else.


    Couldn't agree more.
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    sweartome123

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  sweartome123 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:Oh no... the western media has to say a million times that Russian military forces are in the eastern ukraine before it becomes true... don't you know anything about propaganda?

    The real amusing thing is that the so called peace agreement said no foreign troops... the US has troops there training the illegal government forces, yet no one complains about that.

    Perhaps Russia should demand all EU military forces withdraw from the Ukraine or they will send in their own troops...  Razz

    At no point have I relied on western media for information regarding Russia's involvement in the war. Nor am I complaining about Russia's involvement. I actually support it to an extent. And it is absolutely criminal for the US and NATO to be training the Ukrainian military. They are training an army of incompetents who seem to find joy causing mass civilian casualties in Donbass.
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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:33 pm

    sweartome123 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Oh no... the western media has to say a million times that Russian military forces are in the eastern ukraine before it becomes true... don't you know anything about propaganda?

    The real amusing thing is that the so called peace agreement said no foreign troops... the US has troops there training the illegal government forces, yet no one complains about that.

    Perhaps Russia should demand all EU military forces withdraw from the Ukraine or they will send in their own troops...  Razz

    At no point have I relied on western media for information regarding Russia's involvement in the war. Nor am I complaining about Russia's involvement. I actually support it to an extent. And it is absolutely criminal for the US and NATO to be training the Ukrainian military. They are training an army of incompetents who seem to find joy causing mass civilian casualties in Donbass.

    And what are your sources for hundreds of dead russian soldiers? Nemzovs numbers he digged up out of his own rear to envile russia and to assure payment from US(P)AID?
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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:54 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Oh no... the western media has to say a million times that Russian military forces are in the eastern ukraine before it becomes true... don't you know anything about propaganda?

    The real amusing thing is that the so called peace agreement said no foreign troops... the US has troops there training the illegal government forces, yet no one complains about that.

    Perhaps Russia should demand all EU military forces withdraw from the Ukraine or they will send in their own troops...  Razz

    At no point have I relied on western media for information regarding Russia's involvement in the war. Nor am I complaining about Russia's involvement. I actually support it to an extent. And it is absolutely criminal for the US and NATO to be training the Ukrainian military. They are training an army of incompetents who seem to find joy causing mass civilian casualties in Donbass.

    And what are your sources for hundreds of dead russian soldiers? Nemzovs numbers he digged up out of his own rear to envile russia and to assure payment from US(P)AID?

    Two inquiries made by far more experienced journalists around September spotted roughly 60/70 people on memory walls in various pinpointed Russian units in Ukropia. This doesn't mean all 60/70 people were killed in Ukraine, but basically that much was very credible.

    On another level, IF there were no regular troops, but formerly active servicemen, proposed an early release for a specific task, this also means, that the level of Russian training is so effective that you can pool together all types of service members and form battalions out of thin air and still have a very effective task force. So yeah, no matter how you put, the Russian Army is showing a very good capability in terms of formation and leadership.

    I'm going to put this piece of Black July here so you can understand what was going on. This is professionals at work, former or actual, this was textbook area interdiction/

    http://slavyangrad.org/2014/07/16/ukrainian-soldiers-cry-for-help/
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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:11 pm


    Why do we even have this bullshit tread?

    If Russian soldiers (real ones) show up in Ukraine, trust me, it will be very painfully obvious for ukrops and plain to see for rest of us...

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  Guest on Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:12 am

    sweartome123 wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:It should be common knowledge by now that Russia is a participant in this war. It doesn't take much to find photos, stories (non-MSM), and information that points to Russian involvement. That being said, their performance against the Ukrainians has been quite good. Looking at the estimated casualties, Russia has lost only a couple hundred men since August of last year while the Ukrainians have lost well over 4,000 troops (military/volunteer battalions) since the start of the conflict. Russia has probably inflicted 75% of Ukraine's casualties given that Russian troops played a large part in the major Ukrainian defeats at Ilovaisk and Debaltseve, in which we all know thousands of Ukrainian troops were killed. This is just my opinion, but I'm basing it on my own research, not the "Russia invades Ukraine with 20,000,000 Ukrainian baby killer super soldiers" bullshit.
    Russia could not hide a couple hundred in loses. Field hospitals could not handle that and it would be extremely difficult to keep everybody quiet. It be very hard to cover up that many WIAs let alone KIAs nowadays with social media and everything, Western MSM keeps trying to do just that while making some impressive logical leaps along the way. Russia sent in a small amount of troops to begin with and they lost very few men. Their ability to inflict such devastating losses comes from their vastly superior technology, training, and their uniformity. A modern army well versed in conventional warfare would have little trouble bulldozing the Ukrops at Ilovaisk, only ones really capable of that is Russia and the US, most other modern armies are too focused on asymmetric warfare.

    I disagree. First of all, Russia's casualties have been low throughout the conflict (less than one a day). Secondly, soldiers and their families are likely receiving cash to not disclose their deployments and experiences. Yet, information detailing such can be found in interviews and on VK accounts. Regarding the remainder of your post, I undoubtedly agree. Simply put, Russian troops are leaps and bounds better than anything the Ukrainians can produce. No American or NATO training will help the Ukrainians become an effective fighting force. Such training did not help the Georgians back in 2008.
    I said that the losses have been extremely low? I don't agree with Russian losses numbering in the hundreds, the real total must be significantly smaller. I am also not sure that I agree with your second point. Money can't replace people's lives and to buy the silence of a someone when they lost somebody very close to them would be extremely expensive. Soldiers are much easier to keep quiet because they have sworn to protect the secrecy.

    Since Russian troops are only used as a failsafe for the NAF, they have fought for small periods of time and with a small number of troops. The amount of damage that they bring to the Ukrops is incredible.
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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  sweartome123 on Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:46 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Oh no... the western media has to say a million times that Russian military forces are in the eastern ukraine before it becomes true... don't you know anything about propaganda?

    The real amusing thing is that the so called peace agreement said no foreign troops... the US has troops there training the illegal government forces, yet no one complains about that.

    Perhaps Russia should demand all EU military forces withdraw from the Ukraine or they will send in their own troops...  Razz

    At no point have I relied on western media for information regarding Russia's involvement in the war. Nor am I complaining about Russia's involvement. I actually support it to an extent. And it is absolutely criminal for the US and NATO to be training the Ukrainian military. They are training an army of incompetents who seem to find joy causing mass civilian casualties in Donbass.

    And what are your sources for hundreds of dead russian soldiers? Nemzovs numbers he digged up out of his own rear to envile russia and to assure payment from US(P)AID?

    First, the claim of hundreds of losses is a liberal estimate. The number is likely lower. Anyways, my sources are simply photos of memorials. I've counted the names of 31 soldiers from the photos I've seen so far. About 20 of them are dated from last August to September, while the rest spanned from December to February.
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    sweartome123

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  sweartome123 on Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:00 am

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:It should be common knowledge by now that Russia is a participant in this war. It doesn't take much to find photos, stories (non-MSM), and information that points to Russian involvement. That being said, their performance against the Ukrainians has been quite good. Looking at the estimated casualties, Russia has lost only a couple hundred men since August of last year while the Ukrainians have lost well over 4,000 troops (military/volunteer battalions) since the start of the conflict. Russia has probably inflicted 75% of Ukraine's casualties given that Russian troops played a large part in the major Ukrainian defeats at Ilovaisk and Debaltseve, in which we all know thousands of Ukrainian troops were killed. This is just my opinion, but I'm basing it on my own research, not the "Russia invades Ukraine with 20,000,000 Ukrainian baby killer super soldiers" bullshit.
    Russia could not hide a couple hundred in loses. Field hospitals could not handle that and it would be extremely difficult to keep everybody quiet. It be very hard to cover up that many WIAs let alone KIAs nowadays with social media and everything, Western MSM keeps trying to do just that while making some impressive logical leaps along the way. Russia sent in a small amount of troops to begin with and they lost very few men. Their ability to inflict such devastating losses comes from their vastly superior technology, training, and their uniformity. A modern army well versed in conventional warfare would have little trouble bulldozing the Ukrops at Ilovaisk, only ones really capable of that is Russia and the US, most other modern armies are too focused on asymmetric warfare.

    I disagree. First of all, Russia's casualties have been low throughout the conflict (less than one a day). Secondly, soldiers and their families are likely receiving cash to not disclose their deployments and experiences. Yet, information detailing such can be found in interviews and on VK accounts. Regarding the remainder of your post, I undoubtedly agree. Simply put, Russian troops are leaps and bounds better than anything the Ukrainians can produce. No American or NATO training will help the Ukrainians become an effective fighting force. Such training did not help the Georgians back in 2008.
    I said that the losses have been extremely low? I don't agree with Russian losses numbering in the hundreds, the real total must be significantly smaller. I am also not sure that I agree with your second point. Money can't replace people's lives and to buy the silence of a someone when they lost somebody very close to them would be extremely expensive. Soldiers are much easier to keep quiet because they have sworn to protect the secrecy.

    Since Russian troops are only used as a failsafe for the NAF, they have fought for small periods of time and with a small number of troops. The amount of damage that they bring to the Ukrops is incredible.

    I don't think that Russia has lost hundreds of men either. I think that number is hugely overestimated. Personally, I believe the number is lower than 200. How much lower? I don't know. Still researching.

    Failsafe has been the word I've been trying to find to describe the role of Russian troops. Thank you. thumbsup

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  Guest on Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:03 am

    sweartome123 wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:It should be common knowledge by now that Russia is a participant in this war. It doesn't take much to find photos, stories (non-MSM), and information that points to Russian involvement. That being said, their performance against the Ukrainians has been quite good. Looking at the estimated casualties, Russia has lost only a couple hundred men since August of last year while the Ukrainians have lost well over 4,000 troops (military/volunteer battalions) since the start of the conflict. Russia has probably inflicted 75% of Ukraine's casualties given that Russian troops played a large part in the major Ukrainian defeats at Ilovaisk and Debaltseve, in which we all know thousands of Ukrainian troops were killed. This is just my opinion, but I'm basing it on my own research, not the "Russia invades Ukraine with 20,000,000 Ukrainian baby killer super soldiers" bullshit.
    Russia could not hide a couple hundred in loses. Field hospitals could not handle that and it would be extremely difficult to keep everybody quiet. It be very hard to cover up that many WIAs let alone KIAs nowadays with social media and everything, Western MSM keeps trying to do just that while making some impressive logical leaps along the way. Russia sent in a small amount of troops to begin with and they lost very few men. Their ability to inflict such devastating losses comes from their vastly superior technology, training, and their uniformity. A modern army well versed in conventional warfare would have little trouble bulldozing the Ukrops at Ilovaisk, only ones really capable of that is Russia and the US, most other modern armies are too focused on asymmetric warfare.

    I disagree. First of all, Russia's casualties have been low throughout the conflict (less than one a day). Secondly, soldiers and their families are likely receiving cash to not disclose their deployments and experiences. Yet, information detailing such can be found in interviews and on VK accounts. Regarding the remainder of your post, I undoubtedly agree. Simply put, Russian troops are leaps and bounds better than anything the Ukrainians can produce. No American or NATO training will help the Ukrainians become an effective fighting force. Such training did not help the Georgians back in 2008.
    I said that the losses have been extremely low? I don't agree with Russian losses numbering in the hundreds, the real total must be significantly smaller. I am also not sure that I agree with your second point. Money can't replace people's lives and to buy the silence of a someone when they lost somebody very close to them would be extremely expensive. Soldiers are much easier to keep quiet because they have sworn to protect the secrecy.

    Since Russian troops are only used as a failsafe for the NAF, they have fought for small periods of time and with a small number of troops. The amount of damage that they bring to the Ukrops is incredible.

    I don't think that Russia has lost hundreds of men either. I think that number is hugely overestimated. Personally, I believe the number is lower than 200. How much lower? I don't know. Still researching.

    Failsafe has been the word I've been trying to find to describe the role of Russian troops. Thank you. thumbsup
    200 is very high, in my opinion. I still have distant relatives close to those border regions and while everybody knows those operations took place, nobody can find anyone who lost loved ones during the operations. So they are all keeping their silence extremely well or they didn't lose anybody that should have not been in Ukraine save for a few families.

    I'm leaning towards the second option. I read the information that Kotemore has posted before and I do think that the 60/70 figure in all of Ukraine is probably the most accurate we will get. But the death toll is probably less than that even during the battles. Covering up the death of some many servicemen and keeping friends and family quiet would require a lot of effort. Extra money often in that case does not work too.

    The only credibly documented battles that the Russian forces took part in were the North Wind Operation (including Ilovaisk) and the closing of the Debaltsevo cauldron. During the North Wind, Russia lost some troops and some equipment, but very few (read not even close to the 60/70 figure). No credible media source has found evidence of dead Russian troops during the operation either. I have yet to find any losses that the tank crews took in Debaltsevo, only evidence is multiple eyewitnesses and a few videos of T-72B3s.

    Those other deceased servicemen likely volunteered to go into Ukraine on their own will in the meantime. They were Russian servicemen on vacation but not be attached to a Russian unit there. At the time of their deaths, they would still officially be Russian servicemen.

    Those are the explanations I see for the number of deceased servicemen in Ukraine. I am not buying that Russia lost 60/70 men during the only two battles where the Russian Military was a faction.
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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:41 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:It should be common knowledge by now that Russia is a participant in this war. It doesn't take much to find photos, stories (non-MSM), and information that points to Russian involvement. That being said, their performance against the Ukrainians has been quite good. Looking at the estimated casualties, Russia has lost only a couple hundred men since August of last year while the Ukrainians have lost well over 4,000 troops (military/volunteer battalions) since the start of the conflict. Russia has probably inflicted 75% of Ukraine's casualties given that Russian troops played a large part in the major Ukrainian defeats at Ilovaisk and Debaltseve, in which we all know thousands of Ukrainian troops were killed. This is just my opinion, but I'm basing it on my own research, not the "Russia invades Ukraine with 20,000,000 Ukrainian baby killer super soldiers" bullshit.
    Russia could not hide a couple hundred in loses. Field hospitals could not handle that and it would be extremely difficult to keep everybody quiet. It be very hard to cover up that many WIAs let alone KIAs nowadays with social media and everything, Western MSM keeps trying to do just that while making some impressive logical leaps along the way. Russia sent in a small amount of troops to begin with and they lost very few men. Their ability to inflict such devastating losses comes from their vastly superior technology, training, and their uniformity. A modern army well versed in conventional warfare would have little trouble bulldozing the Ukrops at Ilovaisk, only ones really capable of that is Russia and the US, most other modern armies are too focused on asymmetric warfare.

    I disagree. First of all, Russia's casualties have been low throughout the conflict (less than one a day). Secondly, soldiers and their families are likely receiving cash to not disclose their deployments and experiences. Yet, information detailing such can be found in interviews and on VK accounts. Regarding the remainder of your post, I undoubtedly agree. Simply put, Russian troops are leaps and bounds better than anything the Ukrainians can produce. No American or NATO training will help the Ukrainians become an effective fighting force. Such training did not help the Georgians back in 2008.
    I said that the losses have been extremely low? I don't agree with Russian losses numbering in the hundreds, the real total must be significantly smaller. I am also not sure that I agree with your second point. Money can't replace people's lives and to buy the silence of a someone when they lost somebody very close to them would be extremely expensive. Soldiers are much easier to keep quiet because they have sworn to protect the secrecy.

    Since Russian troops are only used as a failsafe for the NAF, they have fought for small periods of time and with a small number of troops. The amount of damage that they bring to the Ukrops is incredible.

    I don't think that Russia has lost hundreds of men either. I think that number is hugely overestimated. Personally, I believe the number is lower than 200. How much lower? I don't know. Still researching.

    Failsafe has been the word I've been trying to find to describe the role of Russian troops. Thank you. thumbsup
    200 is very high, in my opinion. I still have distant relatives close to those border regions and while everybody knows those operations took place, nobody can find anyone who lost loved ones during the operations. So they are all keeping their silence extremely well or they didn't lose anybody that should have not been in Ukraine save for a few families.

    I'm leaning towards the second option. I read the information that Kotemore has posted before and I do think that the 60/70 figure in all of Ukraine is probably the most accurate we will get. But the death toll is probably less than that even during the battles. Covering up the death of some many servicemen and keeping friends and family quiet would require a lot of effort. Extra money often in that case does not work too.

    The only credibly documented battles that the Russian forces took part in were the North Wind Operation (including Ilovaisk) and the closing of the Debaltsevo cauldron. During the North Wind, Russia lost some troops and some equipment, but very few (read not even close to the 60/70 figure). No credible media source has found evidence of dead Russian troops during the operation either. I have yet to find any losses that the tank crews took in Debaltsevo, only evidence is multiple eyewitnesses and a few videos of T-72B3s.

    Those other deceased servicemen likely volunteered to go into Ukraine on their own will in the meantime. They were Russian servicemen on vacation but not be attached to a Russian unit there. At the time of their deaths, they would still officially be Russian servicemen.

    Those are the explanations I see for the number of deceased servicemen in Ukraine. I am not buying that Russia lost 60/70 men during the only two battles where the Russian Military was a faction.

    Once again the 60/70 people dead was what figured on memory walls. The other side is that about 50 different units have been lending hardware to NAF. From MotoLigas (MTLB) to outright MSTA-S (there's very nice video of 3 MSAT-S crossing from Ukraine to Russia the 30th of August around Luhansk...).

    Not all of them were KIA "in Ukraine". I'll try to find the damn articles again.

    Losing 60/70 people while fighting in equal terms (read no air-cover or CAS and no SEAD) is a bloody bargain when one recalls how the push towards Tskhinvali cost and unlike the battles we're speaking, Tskhinvali was a a blocking battle turned punitive action.

    So stop thinking that 60/70 is huge I personally think it's more or less sound for both pin point operations. You could lose people on a day to day basis to carelessness, personal issues, NAF stupidity...that's also what we've all read until now regarding NAF early operations up to Debaltsevo.

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  Guest on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:06 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:It should be common knowledge by now that Russia is a participant in this war. It doesn't take much to find photos, stories (non-MSM), and information that points to Russian involvement. That being said, their performance against the Ukrainians has been quite good. Looking at the estimated casualties, Russia has lost only a couple hundred men since August of last year while the Ukrainians have lost well over 4,000 troops (military/volunteer battalions) since the start of the conflict. Russia has probably inflicted 75% of Ukraine's casualties given that Russian troops played a large part in the major Ukrainian defeats at Ilovaisk and Debaltseve, in which we all know thousands of Ukrainian troops were killed. This is just my opinion, but I'm basing it on my own research, not the "Russia invades Ukraine with 20,000,000 Ukrainian baby killer super soldiers" bullshit.
    Russia could not hide a couple hundred in loses. Field hospitals could not handle that and it would be extremely difficult to keep everybody quiet. It be very hard to cover up that many WIAs let alone KIAs nowadays with social media and everything, Western MSM keeps trying to do just that while making some impressive logical leaps along the way. Russia sent in a small amount of troops to begin with and they lost very few men. Their ability to inflict such devastating losses comes from their vastly superior technology, training, and their uniformity. A modern army well versed in conventional warfare would have little trouble bulldozing the Ukrops at Ilovaisk, only ones really capable of that is Russia and the US, most other modern armies are too focused on asymmetric warfare.

    I disagree. First of all, Russia's casualties have been low throughout the conflict (less than one a day). Secondly, soldiers and their families are likely receiving cash to not disclose their deployments and experiences. Yet, information detailing such can be found in interviews and on VK accounts. Regarding the remainder of your post, I undoubtedly agree. Simply put, Russian troops are leaps and bounds better than anything the Ukrainians can produce. No American or NATO training will help the Ukrainians become an effective fighting force. Such training did not help the Georgians back in 2008.
    I said that the losses have been extremely low? I don't agree with Russian losses numbering in the hundreds, the real total must be significantly smaller. I am also not sure that I agree with your second point. Money can't replace people's lives and to buy the silence of a someone when they lost somebody very close to them would be extremely expensive. Soldiers are much easier to keep quiet because they have sworn to protect the secrecy.

    Since Russian troops are only used as a failsafe for the NAF, they have fought for small periods of time and with a small number of troops. The amount of damage that they bring to the Ukrops is incredible.

    I don't think that Russia has lost hundreds of men either. I think that number is hugely overestimated. Personally, I believe the number is lower than 200. How much lower? I don't know. Still researching.

    Failsafe has been the word I've been trying to find to describe the role of Russian troops. Thank you. thumbsup
    200 is very high, in my opinion. I still have distant relatives close to those border regions and while everybody knows those operations took place, nobody can find anyone who lost loved ones during the operations. So they are all keeping their silence extremely well or they didn't lose anybody that should have not been in Ukraine save for a few families.

    I'm leaning towards the second option. I read the information that Kotemore has posted before and I do think that the 60/70 figure in all of Ukraine is probably the most accurate we will get. But the death toll is probably less than that even during the battles. Covering up the death of some many servicemen and keeping friends and family quiet would require a lot of effort. Extra money often in that case does not work too.

    The only credibly documented battles that the Russian forces took part in were the North Wind Operation (including Ilovaisk) and the closing of the Debaltsevo cauldron. During the North Wind, Russia lost some troops and some equipment, but very few (read not even close to the 60/70 figure). No credible media source has found evidence of dead Russian troops during the operation either. I have yet to find any losses that the tank crews took in Debaltsevo, only evidence is multiple eyewitnesses and a few videos of T-72B3s.

    Those other deceased servicemen likely volunteered to go into Ukraine on their own will in the meantime. They were Russian servicemen on vacation but not be attached to a Russian unit there. At the time of their deaths, they would still officially be Russian servicemen.

    Those are the explanations I see for the number of deceased servicemen in Ukraine. I am not buying that Russia lost 60/70 men during the only two battles where the Russian Military was a faction.

    Once again the 60/70 people dead was what figured on memory walls. The other side is that about 50 different units have been lending hardware to NAF. From MotoLigas (MTLB) to outright MSTA-S (there's very nice video of 3 MSAT-S crossing from Ukraine to Russia the 30th of August around Luhansk...).

    Not all of them were KIA "in Ukraine". I'll try to find the damn articles again.

    Losing 60/70 people while fighting in equal terms (read no air-cover or CAS and no SEAD) is a bloody bargain when one recalls how the push towards Tskhinvali cost and unlike the battles we're speaking, Tskhinvali was a a blocking battle turned punitive action.

    So stop thinking that 60/70 is huge I personally think it's more or less sound for both pin point operations. You could lose people on a day to day basis to carelessness, personal issues, NAF stupidity...that's also what we've all read until now regarding NAF early operations up to Debaltsevo.
    The only battles that the Russian Military (not NAF) was a part of are the North Wind and Debaltsevo. Only at Ilovaisk were there documented Russian losses and there were very few pieces of evidence. Only a few destroyed vehicles plus some personnel equipment like a helmet. Russian forces obviously didn't have time to hide their tracks. It still doesn't look like 60 or 70 troops died there. As for Debaltsevo, I have yet to see any record of Russian losses there and I have been looking hard, very hard. The only thing that is known is that Russian tank crews appeared there in their T-72B3s after the NAF had a lot of trouble closing the cauldron. Even without air support, the Russian Military has come a long way since Tskhinvali and only 60/70 losses is incredible. However, I haven't seen evidence for that many dead from the only two operations where Russia took part in separately from the NAF and there is no indication that there was any cleanup either.

    Again, those battles are the only ones where the Russian Military was working alongside the NAF. There are Russian soldiers embedded within the NAF not taking orders from Russia, be them vacationers or whatnot. There are of course former Russian soldiers within th NAF as well but they can't be considered Russian servicemen anymore. The losses that they have suffered are higher and thanks to all the reasons you have listed mostly stemming from idiocy in the NAF command not from Russian command.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:27 am

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    sweartome123 wrote:It should be common knowledge by now that Russia is a participant in this war. It doesn't take much to find photos, stories (non-MSM), and information that points to Russian involvement. That being said, their performance against the Ukrainians has been quite good. Looking at the estimated casualties, Russia has lost only a couple hundred men since August of last year while the Ukrainians have lost well over 4,000 troops (military/volunteer battalions) since the start of the conflict. Russia has probably inflicted 75% of Ukraine's casualties given that Russian troops played a large part in the major Ukrainian defeats at Ilovaisk and Debaltseve, in which we all know thousands of Ukrainian troops were killed. This is just my opinion, but I'm basing it on my own research, not the "Russia invades Ukraine with 20,000,000 Ukrainian baby killer super soldiers" bullshit.
    Russia could not hide a couple hundred in loses. Field hospitals could not handle that and it would be extremely difficult to keep everybody quiet. It be very hard to cover up that many WIAs let alone KIAs nowadays with social media and everything, Western MSM keeps trying to do just that while making some impressive logical leaps along the way. Russia sent in a small amount of troops to begin with and they lost very few men. Their ability to inflict such devastating losses comes from their vastly superior technology, training, and their uniformity. A modern army well versed in conventional warfare would have little trouble bulldozing the Ukrops at Ilovaisk, only ones really capable of that is Russia and the US, most other modern armies are too focused on asymmetric warfare.

    I disagree. First of all, Russia's casualties have been low throughout the conflict (less than one a day). Secondly, soldiers and their families are likely receiving cash to not disclose their deployments and experiences. Yet, information detailing such can be found in interviews and on VK accounts. Regarding the remainder of your post, I undoubtedly agree. Simply put, Russian troops are leaps and bounds better than anything the Ukrainians can produce. No American or NATO training will help the Ukrainians become an effective fighting force. Such training did not help the Georgians back in 2008.
    I said that the losses have been extremely low? I don't agree with Russian losses numbering in the hundreds, the real total must be significantly smaller. I am also not sure that I agree with your second point. Money can't replace people's lives and to buy the silence of a someone when they lost somebody very close to them would be extremely expensive. Soldiers are much easier to keep quiet because they have sworn to protect the secrecy.

    Since Russian troops are only used as a failsafe for the NAF, they have fought for small periods of time and with a small number of troops. The amount of damage that they bring to the Ukrops is incredible.

    I don't think that Russia has lost hundreds of men either. I think that number is hugely overestimated. Personally, I believe the number is lower than 200. How much lower? I don't know. Still researching.

    Failsafe has been the word I've been trying to find to describe the role of Russian troops. Thank you. thumbsup
    200 is very high, in my opinion. I still have distant relatives close to those border regions and while everybody knows those operations took place, nobody can find anyone who lost loved ones during the operations. So they are all keeping their silence extremely well or they didn't lose anybody that should have not been in Ukraine save for a few families.

    I'm leaning towards the second option. I read the information that Kotemore has posted before and I do think that the 60/70 figure in all of Ukraine is probably the most accurate we will get. But the death toll is probably less than that even during the battles. Covering up the death of some many servicemen and keeping friends and family quiet would require a lot of effort. Extra money often in that case does not work too.

    The only credibly documented battles that the Russian forces took part in were the North Wind Operation (including Ilovaisk) and the closing of the Debaltsevo cauldron. During the North Wind, Russia lost some troops and some equipment, but very few (read not even close to the 60/70 figure). No credible media source has found evidence of dead Russian troops during the operation either. I have yet to find any losses that the tank crews took in Debaltsevo, only evidence is multiple eyewitnesses and a few videos of T-72B3s.

    Those other deceased servicemen likely volunteered to go into Ukraine on their own will in the meantime. They were Russian servicemen on vacation but not be attached to a Russian unit there. At the time of their deaths, they would still officially be Russian servicemen.

    Those are the explanations I see for the number of deceased servicemen in Ukraine. I am not buying that Russia lost 60/70 men during the only two battles where the Russian Military was a faction.

    Once again the 60/70 people dead was what figured on memory walls. The other side is that about 50 different units have been lending hardware to NAF. From MotoLigas (MTLB) to outright MSTA-S (there's very nice video of 3 MSAT-S crossing from Ukraine to Russia the 30th of August around Luhansk...).

    Not all of them were KIA "in Ukraine". I'll try to find the damn articles again.

    Losing 60/70 people while fighting in equal terms (read no air-cover or CAS and no SEAD) is a bloody bargain when one recalls how the push towards Tskhinvali cost and unlike the battles we're speaking, Tskhinvali was a a blocking battle turned punitive action.

    So stop thinking that 60/70 is huge I personally think it's more or less sound for both pin point operations. You could lose people on a day to day basis to carelessness, personal issues, NAF stupidity...that's also what we've all read until now regarding NAF early operations up to Debaltsevo.
    The only battles that the Russian Military (not NAF) was a part of are the North Wind and Debaltsevo. Only at Ilovaisk were there documented Russian losses and there were very few pieces of evidence. Only a few destroyed vehicles plus some personnel equipment like a helmet. Russian forces obviously didn't have time to hide their tracks. It still doesn't look like 60 or 70 troops died there. As for Debaltsevo, I have yet to see any record of Russian losses there and I have been looking hard, very hard. The only thing that is known is that Russian tank crews appeared there in their T-72B3s after the NAF had a lot of trouble closing the cauldron. Even without air support, the Russian Military has come a long way since Tskhinvali and only 60/70 losses is incredible. However, I haven't seen evidence for that many dead from the only two operations where Russia took part in separately from the NAF and there is no indication that there was any cleanup either.

    Again, those battles are the only ones where the Russian Military was working alongside the NAF. There are Russian soldiers embedded within the NAF not taking orders from Russia, be them vacationers or whatnot. There are of course former Russian soldiers within th NAF as well but they can't be considered Russian servicemen anymore. The losses that they have suffered are higher and thanks to all the reasons you have listed mostly stemming from idiocy in the NAF command not from Russian command.


    I concur mostly, for the rest, especially Debal, there's a total fog of war, with people being former soldiers (Buryat tanker) and other being active personnel as "pointed" by other russian sources/.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:09 pm

    The problem I have with the suggestion that the Russians are feeding in forces to maintain the stalemate ignores the elephant in the room.

    Russia would prefer this conflict to be over as quickly as possible... no matter what the solution.

    The Ukraines internal politics is no business of Russia, but what is Russias business is that the EU and US are inflicting sanctions and economic punishments on Russia while the conflict continues.

    If the Russians really had troops there why would they not be in Kiev right now?

    Is Kiev shelling the Donbass any different from Tiblisi shelling the capital of South Ossetia?



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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  tdobai on Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:14 pm

    Does anybody have an estimate about how many special forces are active from the russian side in the conflict? I heard today a researcher who said that the number of special forces in the russian military are 120 000. He also added that the kremlin can not afford to continue the involvement in the conflict as it is "bleeding out" its special forces due to high losses.

    What are your thoughts?
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    max steel

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  max steel on Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:50 pm

    tdobai wrote:Does anybody have an estimate about how many special forces are active from the russian side in the conflict?  I heard today a researcher who said that the number of special forces in the russian military are 120 000. He also added that the kremlin can not afford to continue the involvement in the conflict as it is "bleeding out" its special forces due to high losses.

    What are your thoughts?


    stop hearing such bull .
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    franco

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  franco on Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:54 pm

    tdobai wrote:Does anybody have an estimate about how many special forces are active from the russian side in the conflict?  I heard today a researcher who said that the number of special forces in the russian military are 120 000. He also added that the kremlin can not afford to continue the involvement in the conflict as it is "bleeding out" its special forces due to high losses.

    What are your thoughts?

    Figure is way too high and even if you included the Airborne and Naval Infantry not even close.
    Who is this researcher...Mark G?

    http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/1-2014/item4/article2/

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  Guest on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:07 pm

    tdobai wrote:Does anybody have an estimate about how many special forces are active from the russian side in the conflict?  I heard today a researcher who said that the number of special forces in the russian military are 120 000. He also added that the kremlin can not afford to continue the involvement in the conflict as it is "bleeding out" its special forces due to high losses.

    What are your thoughts?
    We've been over this quite a few times now. You are looking at propaganda, no way to whitewash that. Russian Spetsnaz operatives in Ukraine are nowhere near those numbers in Donbass. The Spetsnaz operatives are there unofficially to provide training and serve as advisors. Similar to how elite US units do for the Iraqis in their war against ISIS. Neither Russian or American Spetsnaz operatives are seeing any real combat on their respective fronts.

    Spetsnaz operatives operating in Novorossiya is different than recently retired and grunts on vacation embedded within the NAF. That is also different from the actual Russian Military being behind the Hohol massacres at Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo, former saw only around a dozen or so in Russian losses and the latter battle doesn't appear to have any Russian losses.

    The estimated number of losses of those who had a recent affiliation with the Russian Military in Donbass is best estimated to be around 60 to 70 men as mentioned above. These losses mostly came from stupidity in the NAF ranks. Russia looks like it was going to lose more special force operatives in the anti-terror operations in Dagestan.




    To GarryB, I respectfully disagree. Russia wants to make sure this conflict ends with how they want it to end. That means Novorossiya surviving. But fighting only draws unnecessary attention to the conflict through the form of economic warfare from the West.

    If Russian troops had entered and stayed the fight back in late August they could have very well burned Lemburg to the ground in early September if they wanted to. The problem with that is that may trigger a military response from the West and we all know that would probably put an end to humanity as we know it.

    Ukraine is not economically or politically stable right now. It is the classic ticking time-bomb. Once someone's money and/or patience runs out, the country will likely implode and likely in a violent manner as well. Why did the IMF give them all the loans earlier? Russia is well aware that Ukraine cannot continue to fund a war against their own people, especially if they are backed by Russia. Russia can weather the political economic crisis and will probably come out even stronger and Ukraine cannot.

    Porkchop and his cronies sitting comfortably in Kiev have realized this too and it looks like they are preparing their endgame. They have been busy moving all the equipment that may work and gathering anyone who can hold a gun and been moving them to the front. Novorossiya is now a very capable foe and Putin himself stated that he shall not let Novorossiya fall. Kiev is fighting a losing battle and they know this. They must be thinking that reigniting the conflict soon will result in aid for Ukraine and additional sanctions on Russia. The timing on this is perfect too. Next year the Executive and Legislative branches of the US Governments will be lame ducks as the elections will pick up the pace.

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  tdobai on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:25 pm

    Sorry I have to make a correction. What he said was exactly that Russia sends its "best forces" (still BS in my opinion). He is a hungarian researcher for the Finnish Institute of International Affairs.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:28 pm

    tdobai wrote:Sorry I have to make a correction. What he said was exactly that Russia sends its "best forces" (still BS in my opinion). He is a hungarian researcher for the Finnish Institute of International Affairs.

    Finish, you can stop right there...

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    Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    Post  tdobai on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:37 pm

    Thank you for the replies !

    "Finish, you can stop right there..." lol!

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