Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Body Armour and Protection systems

    Share

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7305
    Points : 7619
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:07 am

    So what is the standard in terms of Body armor and other protection systems?  I read about different class of body armor and how USA and UK have top notch body armor, and various countries do not....But if they fit the protection class, then how come?

    Anyway, I just want to know what Russia currently uses, and is planning to use.

    I know that the helmet is the 6b26.  But what about armor?

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2189
    Points : 3097
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:13 am

    6B11-2 (4.5 kg)

    Goes to level II



    6B12-2 (8.5kg)

    Goes to level III



    Last edited by Vladimir79 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7305
    Points : 7619
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:29 am

    Did not notice that I misspelled standard (Vladimir, if you do not mind, may you please make the fix?)

    do you have any experience with these body armor? What are they like?

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2189
    Points : 3097
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:38 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Did not notice that I misspelled standard (Vladimir, if you do not mind, may you please make the fix?)

    do you have any experience with these body armor? What are they like?

    Fawkn heavy... as a paratrooper, they were hell on my back during landings. We often waited to collect our gear before we put them on. They are also uncomfortable and make you sweat. We need to get Dragon Skin.

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7305
    Points : 7619
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:27 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Did not notice that I misspelled standard (Vladimir, if you do not mind, may you please make the fix?)

    do you have any experience with these body armor? What are they like?

    Fawkn heavy... as a paratrooper, they were hell on my back during landings. We often waited to collect our gear before we put them on. They are also uncomfortable and make you sweat. We need to get Dragon Skin.

    There was a convention a couple years ago that showed all these types of armor (guns as well. All from one other forums) and I am wondering, how many armor R&D as well as producing companies are there in Russia? Only ones I can think of is Niistali and Fort.

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2189
    Points : 3097
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Ratnik combat gear

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:36 am


    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5523
    Points : 5925
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Austin on Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:25 am

    What is the status of Russian Future Combat System ? How is it progressing and any one has more details ?

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-25
    Location : California, USA

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:10 am

    Wait, so is Russia going to be buying these?

    Viktor
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5604
    Points : 6257
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 35
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Viktor on Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:33 pm

    Just for testing in comparison ... as I understand.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15122
    Points : 15831
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:25 am

    They might buy components of the system but will likely use their own components for other aspects. For example I doubt they will adopt the FAMAS rifle.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5523
    Points : 5925
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Austin on Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:06 am

    Makes a nice read

    RUSSIAN INFANTRY COMBAT SYSTEM DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMS

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15122
    Points : 15831
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:05 pm

    Nice post Austin.

    Thanks.

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-25
    Location : California, USA

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:42 pm

    That is actually great, before now, most Russian vests I have read about only had Class III protection equivalent on the NIJ Standard scale, which meant that Sniper rounds could get through the Armor plates of the vest. On the GOST standard of protection, a level of VI is equivalent to the NIJ's standard of IV, which means Sniper rifle resistant (although, anything 12.7 mm or bigger is getting through regardless).

    Aside from that, their C4I system has pretty much reached parity, however, I wouldn't want a Video feed when fighting zombies!

    I was also impressed with this: "health monitoring of personal physical and mental state." I saw something like that on Futureweapons, except it was supposed to be in the future, decently far future!

    Also, their Night optics are finally close to parity. I'm not sure what Generation our Optics are, but with Gen 3 optics, they're getting damn close.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15122
    Points : 15831
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:07 pm

    a level of VI is equivalent to the NIJ's standard of IV, which means Sniper rifle resistant (although, anything 12.7 mm or bigger is getting through regardless).

    Might stop their silenced 12.7mm sniper weapons at ranges of 400m or so.

    ie:

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn72-e.htm

    Also, their Night optics are finally close to parity. I'm not sure what Generation our Optics are, but with Gen 3 optics, they're getting damn close.

    They are working on gen IV which reduces blooming and is more tolerant of bright lights in the field of view.

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2189
    Points : 3097
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:12 pm

    Austin wrote:Makes a nice read

    RUSSIAN INFANTRY COMBAT SYSTEM DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMS

    Never heard of Barmitsa or Ratnik. Troops were tested with the Permyachka which is a new protection kit of fire-retardant BDU and increased body armour. They said they were going to buy it as the new uniform but lacks funding.

    http://www.primeportal.net/armory/yuri_pasholok3/permyachka_infantry_suit/

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-25
    Location : California, USA

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:44 pm

    To expand this, they also use the 6B13.

    It's configuration is similar to the body armor you might see on a US Marine in Iraq, such as the Interceptor Body Armor, however, the 6B13 lacks the groin patch that we have. They are similar in look and design, in that the majority of the armor is made out of Kevlar or other fabrics. For the vital areas, both have hard plates, both being hard Ceramics (although older Russian armors used titanium for hard protection). As Vlad said, they weigh a shit load, 10 kg for the 6B13, however, compared to the newest version of the Interceptor (which is designed to protect against IEDs), which weighs, 15 kg, the 6B13 is relatively light.

    Protection wise, they both over the same protection levels, NIJ standard of Level IV (which means "Conditioned armor protects against 10.8 g (166 gr) .30-06 Springfield M2 armor piercing (AP) bullets at a velocity of 878 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2880 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). It also provides at least single hit protection against the threats mentioned in [Types I, IIA, II, IIIA, and III].")

    However, if you're in Russia, they will tell you that the 6B13 system is level VI according to GOST R 50744-95 Ballistic Standard. If you are unfamiliar to the standard, look here. Basically, to qualify for Level VI under the GOST standard, the vest must be shot with a 7.62 x 54mm round (I'd assume an Armor Piercing round as a bullet from a SVD is also used to qualify for Class IV GOST protection level) from a SVD, which has equivalent performance to the .30-06 Springfield AP rounds used for NIJ class IV testing, which basically means Class IV NIJ = Class VI GOST.

    As for the "Standardness" of this, or "If I walked into a Russian army base, how many Ivan or Sergies are going to be wearing this" level, I wouldn't say too much, as some other Russian military guys I've known on other forums have told me that the upgrading process is slow. But as this year progress and Russia's major upgrade program is underway, you can only expect to see more Russian Army boys to be wearing the 6B13 or any of it's successors. Personally, I've seen quite a couple pictures showing Russian solders wearing the 6B13 in their duties.

    For more information on the 6B13 and other armors, go here.


    Expanding on myself, according to RIAN, they are currently testing a new body armor, which unlike the 6B13, weighs 5 kg more. Here.

    "The 15-kilo full set has the highest protection level and can be used in assaults. A lighter version weighs under two kilos and can be worn under clothes. The price of this bulletproof vest is about $1,000, which is two to three times higher than average."

    I'm not an idiot, but I'm also not a genius. I've heard around the internets of a 6B5-14 all the way up to a 6B5-19. As for Dragon Skin, yeah, Sad

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2189
    Points : 3097
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:09 pm

    Uh yeah, I don't want to wear any damned 15kg body armour. Jumping out of a plane with 8kg was enough to cause spinal injury. We bundle that shit with our gear and put it on when we land. If it weighted 15kg I would throw it back to the quartermaster.

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-25
    Location : California, USA

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:13 am

    I should also mention that it said the 6B13 was only safe to wear for 5 hours :O


    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5523
    Points : 5925
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Austin on Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:49 am

    Heres another floating body armour

    Russian naval infantry receives floating body armor

    The Russian naval infantry will soon be equipped with floating bulletproof life vests, the naval infantry commander said.

    The vest, specifically designed for maritime applications, offers full ballistic protection against light weapon threats while providing floating capabilities.

    "This vest has been designed for naval infantry as well as for seamen serving on combat ships," Maj. Gen. Alexander Kolpachenko told the Echo Moskvy radio on Saturday.

    The general said that despite its heavy weight the vest was perfectly floatable and could easily support the wearer, his weapons and ammunition in water.

    "It [the vest] surpasses all types of body armor worn by servicemen in the Ground Forces," Kolpachenko said, adding that the delivery of the new floating bulletproof life vest to naval infantry units would start in 2011.

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-25
    Location : California, USA

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    a level of VI is equivalent to the NIJ's standard of IV, which means Sniper rifle resistant (although, anything 12.7 mm or bigger is getting through regardless).

    Might stop their silenced 12.7mm sniper weapons at ranges of 400m or so.

    ie:

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn72-e.htm

    Also, their Night optics are finally close to parity. I'm not sure what Generation our Optics are, but with Gen 3 optics, they're getting damn close.

    They are working on gen IV which reduces blooming and is more tolerant of bright lights in the field of view.

    Well, lets admit it, not a lot of foreign nations use subsonic 12.7 mm rounds anyways Very Happy

    Any idea when they're going to start incorporating QWIPs into their systems? We have QWIPs in our FLIRs now apparently :O

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15122
    Points : 15831
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:52 pm

    Any idea when they're going to start incorporating QWIPs into their systems? We have QWIPs in our FLIRs now apparently :O

    I doubt they will send me a memo when they do. Your people didn't send me a memo either. Razz

    Well, lets admit it, not a lot of foreign nations use subsonic 12.7 mm rounds anyways

    The people who use such sneaky beaky stuff rarely talk about what sort of ammo types they prefer and there are plenty of those sorts of people in many western and eastern countries.

    The point is that as vests become more widely used then people with the job of shooting people will more and more have to resort to this sort of ammo and ammo like it or more powerful.

    There certainly seem to be two camps on the issue... small calibre high velocity and larger calibre heavier bullet weight and both have their good and bad points. The first team ended with flechettes but accuracy could not be guaranteed because of the way the sabot seperated in small calibre weapons but with velocities of 1.4km/s out to 800m or so you had no problems with aiming because bullet drop was so small no elevation adjustment was required so the rifles had fixed iron sights like pistols.
    Penetration of flak jackets wasn't a problem either, but lethality was. It was found that a flechette could go through a human heart and it might not stop beating... it would just make a very small hole. Proponents in the other direction seem to be winning however because 5.45mm, 7.62 x 39mm, and 5.56mm ammo has all gotten heavier over time with initial bullet weights of 52 grain, 122 grain, and 55 grain, changing over time to 60 grain, 155 grain (193 grain for subsonic), and 62 grain projectiles.
    The 9x39mm rounds with 250 grain projectiles also became popular in the AS and VSS subsonic weapons

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-25
    Location : California, USA

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:40 am

    Any idea when they're going to start incorporating QWIPs into their systems? We have QWIPs in our FLIRs now apparently :O

    I doubt they will send me a memo when they do. Your people didn't send me a memo either. Razz

    http://www.gs.flir.com/products/unmanned/starsafireqwip.cfm :O

    Well, lets admit it, not a lot of foreign nations use subsonic 12.7 mm rounds anyways

    The people who use such sneaky beaky stuff rarely talk about what sort of ammo types they prefer and there are plenty of those sorts of people in many western and eastern countries.

    The point is that as vests become more widely used then people with the job of shooting people will more and more have to resort to this sort of ammo and ammo like it or more powerful.

    There certainly seem to be two camps on the issue... small calibre high velocity and larger calibre heavier bullet weight and both have their good and bad points. The first team ended with flechettes but accuracy could not be guaranteed because of the way the sabot seperated in small calibre weapons but with velocities of 1.4km/s out to 800m or so you had no problems with aiming because bullet drop was so small no elevation adjustment was required so the rifles had fixed iron sights like pistols.
    Penetration of flak jackets wasn't a problem either, but lethality was. It was found that a flechette could go through a human heart and it might not stop beating... it would just make a very small hole. Proponents in the other direction seem to be winning however because 5.45mm, 7.62 x 39mm, and 5.56mm ammo has all gotten heavier over time with initial bullet weights of 52 grain, 122 grain, and 55 grain, changing over time to 60 grain, 155 grain (193 grain for subsonic), and 62 grain projectiles.
    The 9x39mm rounds with 250 grain projectiles also became popular in the AS and VSS subsonic weapons

    The only real advantage I see from subsonic rounds are the reduced noise it provides, even without suppressors. But in any case, a NIJ class IV or GOST class VI vest should be able to stop a subsonic 12.7 mm no problem so I think Russia has it fine.

    In any case, does Russia have any plans for further off combat systems? I'm actually expecting that they have full parity with us in 2020-2030, and I'd also expect both of us to at least have something resembling this:



    or



    ?

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15122
    Points : 15831
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:46 am

    The only real advantage I see from subsonic rounds are the reduced noise it provides, even without suppressors. But in any case, a NIJ class IV or GOST class VI vest should be able to stop a subsonic 12.7 mm no problem so I think Russia has it fine.

    The problem with energy of a bullet is that velocity is squared so its effect on the equation is increased dramatically.

    Problem is that often slower objects can be just as effective.

    Case in point is the 5.45 x 18mm pistol ammo used in the PSM pistol.
    A pathetic round that is barely supersonic and in many ways inferior to some types of .22lr ammo but because of its bullet design it was found to penetrate 32 layers of kevlar.

    There is a lot if heat generated when a projectile hits something and standard ball rounds contain lead which has a very low boiling point. Firing a 50 cal BMG round directly into a swimming pool will result in a huge splash but all you will find are large fragments of the bullet jacket. The main mass of the projectile made of lead will boil and mix in with the water. Don't want to swim in that water...
    The problems with travelling slower include more bullet drop due to gravity, more time for wind to act on the projectile and effect its flight.
    The point is that for really long range shots the bullet drop can be calculated and is the same for any bullet anyway.
    With wind a heavier bullet is less effected by the wind.
    Modern firearms these day can be fitted with sights that determine range with grids or built in laser range finders and can include ballistic computers that calculate bullet drop for a particular range.
    At long range a heavier bullet will retain velocity better assuming they are both efficient bullet shapes and the heavier bullet will have more effect on target at extended ranges.

    Of course light fast bullets are easier to use because low recoil flat shooting rifles are less complicated to use.
    With the right bullet design they can retain energy and making them tumble on impact will maximise their lethality when they do hit.

    The reality is that even light cover can deflect the small light modern assault rifle bullets whereas even the 7.62 x 39mm rounds will penetrate a surprising amount and still hit a target.

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-25
    Location : California, USA

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:09 am

    Why are you still on about the 12.7 mm? If it can't pierce NIJ level IV or GOST level VI type armors then that leads us back to Square 1, subsonic 12.7 mm can't isn't that great. In any case, being subsonic means that it's energy through 1/2(v^2 x m) is less than something that isn't reduced velocity.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15122
    Points : 15831
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:11 am

    The whole point of going to 12.7mm calibres is to defeat flak jackets and in this case they try to do so with mass rather than velocity.

    The formula for calculating the energy of an impact is skewed in favour of velocity so the results are distorted.

    Very simply there are TWO obvious ways of increasing penetration and one is increasing mass of the projectile and the other is increasing the velocity of the projectile.

    In the case of a suppressed weapon there is a limitation on the velocity the projectile can reach before it becomes supersonic.

    There is no such limitation regarding weight except stabilisation requirements of long bullets.

    Needless to say (again) the only reason for going for 12.7mm calibre bullets is to penetrate body armour and the reason is not because the wider the bullet the better the penetration, but because the heavier the bullet the better the penetration.

    The VKS sniper rifle uses 12.7 x 54mm ammo and the round and the rifle were developed to engage targets the 9 x 39mm calibre rifles were not effective against. In other words against targets wearing heavy body armour.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 8:56 am


      Current date/time is Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:56 am