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    Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine

    franco
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    Post  franco on Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:46 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..the largely russian Crimea was able to hold order with the help of the Russian military personnel based there legally at Sevastopol long enough to hold a referendum and get off the USS Ukraine...
    They flew in more troops- the capital Simferopol & few other big towns had no Russian bases nearby.
    Romanians r now also concerned: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2505474.html
    Ukraine is losing people: https://iz.ru/803000/igor-karmazin/skazku-sdelat-ubyliu-kak-i-pochemu-vymiraet-ukraina

    Low intensity border/civil war will keep this dying out & exodus going, with only the most destitute remaining. Russia (& others) will have less of a problem re-absorbing it back, & welcome those S. African farmers as the Germans were welcomed there 200 years ago.

    So how many troops did the Russians have in Crimea?

    How many troops were they allowed to have under treaty?

    How many of the Ukrainian troops defect sides?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:13 am

    The treaty also allowed Russia to maintain up to 25,000 troops, 24 artillery systems, 132 armored vehicles, and 22 military planes on the Crimean Peninsula.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_Treaty_on_the_Status_and_Conditions_of_the_Black_Sea_Fleet
    https://www.rt.com/news/russian-troops-crimea-ukraine-816/

    Before the coup, they had less than 25K troops there; don't know the exact figure.
    https://www.rt.com/news/ukraine-military-russia-resign-437/
    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/04/16/303646309/in-ukraine-reports-of-soldiers-switching-to-pro-russia-side
    More than 10,000 cases of desertion had been registered in the Ukrainian Army since the outbreak of the Donbass war in April 2014, Ukrainian Vesti reported. In 2014 the army suffered heavy desertion and nearly 30 percent of the servicemen called up in the first wave of mobilization (March 17) abandoned their positions, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said.
    Hundreds of Ukrainian men chose to flee the country rather than be enrolled. Presidential adviser Yuri Biryukov said January 27, 2015 "Over the past 30 days the state border in Chernivtsi region crossed 17% of total military service area. From unofficial sources that hostels and motels in the border areas of neighboring Romania completely filled by those who evade conscription". ..
    Out of 18,000 Ukrainian troops stationed in Crimea, 3,000 said they wished to continue service with the Ukrainian armed forces, according to Russian sources. The troops departed by buses from various areas in the Black Sea peninsula. Military equipment would be transported to Ukraine by railways, under an agreement with the Russian Defense Ministry. About 12,000 of the 15,450 members of the Ukrainian Navy were based in the Crimea. The Acting Defense Minister Igor Tenyukh reported that 4,300 soldiers from the Crimea wanted to continue to serve in the Forces of Ukraine. "4,300 troops and 2,200 members of their families have expressed a desire to continue to serve in the Armed Forces of Ukraine", - said I. Tenyukh, speaking from the rostrum of VR. ..
    More than 16,000 former servicemen and civilian personnel of the Ukrainian armed forces were employed in the military service and given civilian jobs in the Russian armed forces, First Deputy Defense Minister Arkady Bakhin said at an intercom conference held at the situation center of the Defense Ministry on 15 April 2014. "The Russian citizenship was given to 9,268 former servicemen and personnel of the Ukrainian armed forces who were employed in the military service in the Russian armed forces on a contract basis," Bakhin said. Besides, a total of 7,050 former civilian personnel of the Ukrainian armed forces have been employed at the units of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, Bakhin said.
    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/personnel.htm

    Andrey Illarionov, former advisor of Vladimir Putin, said in a speech on 31 May 2014 that some technologies of Russo-Georgian War, were updated and again being exploited in Ukraine. ..The war in Ukraine did not happen "all of sudden", but was pre-planned and the preparations began as early as 2003. Illarionov later stated that one of the Russian plans envisaged war with Ukraine in 2015 after a presidential election, however Maidan accelerated the confrontation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine_(2014%E2%80%93present)#Crimea
    They were prudent to make those plans, every other army would have done the same in those circumstances!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:37 am; edited 1 time in total
    franco
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    Post  franco on Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:02 pm

    They had between 12 and 13 thousand troops stationed there at the time of Maidan. Another approximately 11,000 moved in to bring them up closer to treaty amount Wink what invasion are you talking about Willis? Suspect The purpose of the troops was to confine loyal Ukrainian to their barracks and prevent reinforcements while the Crimea referendum was organized and took place.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:05 am

    Secret Russian complex "Torn" in the Donbass: a unique video appeared

    https://informnapalm.org/47499-zhiteli-okkupirovannogo-donbassa-pre-2/

    Does it look resembling the real 1?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:27 pm

    https://www.bbc.com/russian/news-49390231
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:52 am

    There is clear and open interference in the Ukraine by various western military forces directed there by their governments and openly helping Kiev bomb innocent civilians and burn people to death... who gives a fuck if some Russian decides he wants to actively help a neighbour in a time of war inflicted by an illegal government imposed on them by a US coup?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:02 am

    NATO does- those in tanks were not only volunteers, but active duty army troops, under orders from their chain of command. I agree, Russia doesn't have to play by the rules while the West makes its own rules all over the World since 1400s.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:36 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:NATO does- those in tanks were not only volunteers, but active duty army troops, under orders from their chain of command. I agree, Russia doesn't have to play by the rules while the West makes its own rules all over the World since 1400s.

    Why would veterans of Afghanistan and other recent wars who lived in the Donbas need Russian soldiers to operate their tanks? This propaganda
    attempts to paint Russian advisers like actual Russian forces who did all the fighting, you know, because the millions of ethnic Russians in the Donbass
    would never fight Banderite vermin themselves. Their love for Banderastani Banderites is so great.

    This whole theme is revisionist BS. All sorts of unverifiable "evidence" will be trotted out before MSM consumer sheep who will think that the Donbas
    war is a war of occupation by Russia fighting against the locals. Take this retarded nonsense and shove it.

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    Post  kvs on Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:There is clear and open interference in the Ukraine by various western military forces directed there by their governments and openly helping Kiev bomb innocent civilians and burn people to death... who gives a fuck if some Russian decides he wants to actively help a neighbour in a time of war inflicted by an illegal government imposed on them by a US coup?

    This is yet more bloody hypocrisy by NATO. They don't mind when tens of thousands of jihadis swarm into Syria to fight the legitimate government, but
    cry "war crime" when Russian volunteers go to help ethnic Russians fight off ethno-fascist Ukr paramilitaries and regulars engaged in some suppression
    campaign. Also, for NATO the shelling of civilians is perfectly acceptable as long as pro-NATO forces do it. But oh my the hue and cry when the pro-Russian
    "enemies" do some collateral damage. Holocaust! Holocaust!

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:21 pm

    This is not a zero-sum game: presence of 1 category of combatants doesn't exclude the other, volunteer vs. regular army.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis#Foreign_fighters

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11314817/Secret-dead-of-Russias-undeclared-war.html

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28949582

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/05/13/tanks-deliver-bodies-of-soldiers-who-died-in-donbas-to-russia/

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/05/22/what-we-know-about-russian-troops-in-eastern-ukraine/



    To me, it looks like the case with preponderance of evidence.
    https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1586


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:20 am


    To me, it looks like the case with preponderance of evidence.

    Couldn't you have said highly likely?

    A preponderance of evidence when you cite wiki, you cite two british highly russophobic news organisations, and two links to the euromaiden press website... well it must be true.

    Couldn't you find some MSNBC and CNN and Fox News sources to counterbalance the Russophobic bullshit you already posted?

    There is well known footage of Nuland and fucking McCain leading an illegal coup that overthrew the legitimate government of the Ukraine... Ukraine, being a former Soviet State with conscription where pretty much every adult male in the region was trained to fight and handle weapons, but for some reason we are to believe the only reason there is a problem there is because Russian troops from Russia who should have been on duty were ordered to go over the border and invade the Ukraine and stop Kiev from restoring peace and democracy, and the only reason they did it was to make the Ukraine poor so they would think the US and UK and EU were bad instead of the shining beacon of peace and democracy in the known universe.

    Look at the US reaction to the suggestion that Russian hackers might have stolen evidence of criminal activity by the Clintons and released it to spoil their election chances... without any evidence these alleged revelations didn't sway a single persons vote.... they went apeshit crazy for about 2 years and then practically lynched the anti Trump guy they put in charge of hanging Trump when he didn't deliver a smoking gun.

    How many Americans and Brits and Frogs are there right now in Syria fighting for terrorists?

    When the west defines bad and good by their own personal interests then their accusations and claims become meaningless and should be at best ignored, but really ridiculed should be the treatment they receive.

    Waiting for them to start complaining to China about Tibet as well as Taiwan and Hong Kong, but nothing will be said about Guantanimo or the Marshall Islands or Guam or a thousand other places where the west screwed everyone.


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:07 am; edited 1 time in total
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:45 pm

    ..we are to believe the only reason there is a problem there is because Russian troops from Russia who should have been on duty were ordered to go over the border and invade the Ukraine..
    as always, u exaggerate- r u saying that evidence presented in those videos is all fake just because they r anti-Russian? Every controversial issue must be viewed from multiple different angles & w/o omitting all the relevant sources & data.
    True, most of the fighting defending D/LPR is done by locals, volunteers, & private contractors- but that fact doesn't eliminate Russia's participation, such as non/lethal aid, training, command, artillery support, & occasional direct intervention to preserve the status quo. They sent IL-76s with armed soldiers from elsewhere w/o ID patches in Crimea to take it back, but on a larger scale- Kiev knew it would lose & didn't give order to resist.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:15 am

    as always, u exaggerate- r u saying that evidence presented in those videos is all fake just because they r anti-Russian?

    I am saying they have no interest in the truth, they have an agenda and really don't actually care what is happening in the area and would rather talk about the presence or otherwise of Russian nationals in the region instead of discussing why the fuck they are shelling and bombing their own fucking citizens into submission and accepting their illegal seizure of power...

    Every controversial issue must be viewed from multiple different angles & w/o omitting all the relevant sources & data.

    No it doesn't.

    Should kiddie fiddlers be allowed to defend their actions... perhaps that three year old was asking for it?

    True, most of the fighting defending D/LPR is done by locals, volunteers, & private contractors- but that fact doesn't eliminate Russia's participation, such as non/lethal aid, training, command, artillery support, & occasional direct intervention to preserve the status quo. They sent IL-76s with armed soldiers from elsewhere w/o ID patches in Crimea to take it back, but on a larger scale- Kiev knew it would lose & didn't give order to resist.

    You are trying to equate Russia turning a blind eye to some of its citizens trying to stop an unelected government from shelling and bombing what it claimed to be its own people, with Kiev shelling and bombing and burning to death people who did not accept their illegal seizure of power... there actions could be equated to that fucking nutter jap who burned down that building a short while ago that threw petrol on people trying to escape... in the Ukraine the shot people trying to flee the flames and filmed it... but somehow Putin is the bad guy in this?

    I think his biggest and only mistake in this situation is accepting the illegal regime in Kiev as being a legal entity representing the Ukraine because it isn't.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:30 am

    The RF military is covertly involved in Donvass, & their & local social media posts, graves, witness testimonies, awards, & other circumstantial evidence all points to that. They wouldn't be worth their salt if the GRU SOFs &/ other units didn't go there & helped in the nick of time.
    All of the above doesn't in any way justify the Western supported coup in Kiev & subsequent Ukrainian nationalists oppression of majority Russian speakers in the South & East of the country.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:45 am

    If the American media said the sky was blue I would not believe them.

    I have seen no evidence that proves what they are saying is true.

    The US engineered a coup in the Ukraine and overthrew the elected government of the country... I find it amusing that they are bitching about imaginary Russian interference in their illegal interference in another country, and am quite frankly disgusted at the EU and the US for imposing economic and political sanctions on Russia for its actions unproven as they are.

    To continue to claim Russia is the bad guy in all of this and everything is there fault is delusional.

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