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    Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

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    archangelski

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:26 pm

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:59 pm

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:10 am

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:35 pm

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman on Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:01 pm

    What does that say--Suvorov?
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:14 pm

    starman wrote:What does that say--Suvorov?

    Correct
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:56 pm

    Nose art :

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:58 pm

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:29 am

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:55 pm

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:00 am

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  George1 on Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:10 am

    Russia Declassifies Secret Report Documenting First Days of War on Eastern Front

    The Russian Ministry of Defense has published a unique collection of archival documents on its website detailing top Soviet military commanders' actions during in the first days of Operation Barbarossa, the Nazi Germany invasion of the Soviet Union which began on June 22, 1941.

    The archive, published on the eve of commemorations, both formal and informal, being held across the former Soviet Union to mark the dark day, features an impressive collection of testimony by commanders of various ranks, who were asked in 1952 to provide the Military History Department of the Soviet General Staff with frank, detailed recollections of their experiences in the first days of the war, while their memories were still fresh.

    The commission, under the control of Col. Gen. A.P. Pokrovsky, focused its research on Soviet forces in the Baltic, Belorussian, and Kiev special military districts on the eve of the war.

    The commission asked commanders a series of questions, including a) was the 1941 Plan for the Defense of State Borders (MP-41) delivered to frontline troops b) at what time, and on the basis of what orders were troops sent to the border, and how many were on the border before the start of hostilities c) when was the order received to put troops on alert in connection to an expected Nazi attack on the morning of June 22, 1941 d) why were many of the Red Army's artillery units located in training camps at the start of hostilities, and e) what was the general readiness of army headquarters for operations, and to what extent was this reflected in the first days of the war.

    The questions were sent to senior officers commanding districts, armies, corps and divisions in the first days of the war. Remaining classified, their answers were carefully studied and analyzed, and collectively came to form the basis of historical papers by leading Soviet and Russian specialists researching the beginning of WWII on the Eastern Front. Now, nearly three quarters of a century later, the Ministry of Defense has made excerpts from the commanders' recollections available to the public.


    Page from Pokrovsky's report, containing testimony from Soviet commanders who were on the front lines when war broke out in June 1941.

    Among the officers cited was Lieut. Gen. Kuzma Derevyanko, who in 1941 served as deputy head of the Intelligence Division of the Baltic Special Military District. According to his testimony, the presence and composition of Nazi German forces in the Memel Region, East Prussia and the Suwalki Region was well known to Soviet military intelligence in the weeks and months before the war began.

    The officer wrote that the Intelligence Department of the Baltic Special Military District, "considered the exposed grouping of Nazi German troops to be an offensive grouping with considerable saturation of tank and motorized units." According to Derevyanko, HQ observed the buildup of the Nazi forces over the course of 2-3 months before hostilities broke out. When the war began, command paid considerable focus on deploying detachments into occupied territory for reconnaissance and sabotage operations. These deployments proved to be extremely valuable as the war wore on, according to the officer.

    For his part, Lieut. Gen. Petr Sobennikov, commander of the 8th Army, which was situated in the Baltic Special Military District, described the shock and disorientation felt by Soviet forces when the war began.

    "One can judge how unexpected the start of the war was for arriving troops based on the case of the personnel of a heavy artillery regiment moving by rail in the early hours of June 22. When the regiment arrived at the Siauliai railway station and saw the bombing of our airfields, soldiers assumed that this was the beginning of drills. In the meantime, almost the whole of the aviation of the Baltic Military District was burned on the airfields. Of the mixed air power meant to support the 8th Army, only 5-6 aircraft were left by 3 pm on June 22."

    Sobennikov recalled that several days earlier, on June 18, 1941, he was ordered to deploy part of his forces to their defensive positions, which seemed to indicate that command had some inkling of an impending invasion. However, on the night of June 21, he personally received an order from the Chief of Staff of the Baltic Front to withdraw his troops from their positions. He refused.

    Marshal Ivan Bagramyan, who in 1941 served as Chief of the Operational Department at the headquarters of the Kiev Special Military District, offered clues as to why High Command was reticent to keep the Red Army on high alert. Stressing that first echelon troops in the Kiev Special Military District had been well-acquainted with the operational instructions, and that they had prepared field positions on the border ahead of time, Bagramyan recalled that the troops' forward deployment was deliberately prohibited by high command at the time.

    "Their timely advance to the prepared positions was prohibited, so as not to provoke a war with Nazi Germany," the commander wrote.

    Maj. Gen. Nikolai Ivanov, who in 1941 served as the Chief of Staff of the 6th Army in the Kiev Special Military District, echoed Bagramyan's sentiments.

    "Notwithstanding the clear signs of a large concentration of German troops, the commander of the troops of the Kiev Special Military District forbade the deployment of screening units, bringing troops to combat readiness, or strengthening [positions] even after the shelling of the state border began on the night of June 21 and the morning of June 22, 1941. Approval was only given on the afternoon of June 22, when the Germans had already crossed the state border and were operating on our territory," Ivanov wrote.

    Deployed in the western Ukrainian city of Lvov, Ivanov also testified that shootouts had begun from some buildings in the city when the war broke out. Those caught with weapons proved to be Ukrainian nationalists.

    In this June 6, 1944 file photo, first wave beach battalion Ducks lay low under the fire of Nazi guns on the beach of southern France on D-Day, June 6, 1944 during World War II. One invader operates a walkie talkie radio directing other landing craft to the safest spots for unloading their parties of fighting men.

    The commander also commented on the effective use of false intelligence by Nazi forces, which "unnerved our forces and scattered them in unnecessary reconnaissance missions. It is possible that such information was sent by German agents, smuggled to us in advance," he wrote.

    Maj. Gen. Boris Fomin, the chief of the operations at the headquarters of the 12th Army in the Belarusian Special Military District, reported that the Nazi forces' attack in the early morning of June 22 destroyed radio communications at the divisional level, forcing orders to be hand delivered using aircraft, armored fighting vehicles, and light cars. The difficulty involved in this slow and unreliable method was exacerbated by the fact that enemy aircraft regularly destroyed these vehicles and aircraft, according to the officer.

    "It is enough to give the following example: On June 26, it was necessary to deliver battle orders to armies instructing them to withdraw to the River Shara and on through the Naliboki Forest. To deliver the coded orders, I sent one U-2 aircraft to each army ordering them to set down near their command posts and present the orders. One SB aircraft was also sent to each army, and ordered to drop parachutists who would deliver a coded orders to command; one armored vehicle with an officer was also sent to deliver the same coded order [to each army]. In the end, all the U-2s were shot down, all the armored cars were destroyed. And only two parachutists sent to the command of the 10th Army [managed to deliver the] orders," Fomin wrote.

    Summing up the commanders' testimony, the Russian Ministry of Defense noted almost all of them confirmed being engaged in the preparation of defensive positions well into June of 1941. The degree of preparation varied by region. Soo too did the officers' willingness to take initiative amid reports that an invasion had begun.

    All in all, the commanders' testimony seemed to suggest that what high command was most terrified of was that a local border provocation would lead to full-scale war, which Moscow was utterly unprepared for at the time. Command's jitteriness might be thought of as logical, given that in 1941 alone, intelligence presented at least seven different 'firm' dates for a Nazi invasion; these reports were also contradicted by other reports saying that Hitler would launch an invasion of the UK first.

    Ultimately, the MoD noted that "the recollections of the eyewitnesses and direct participants of the first days of the war certainly aren't devoid of subjectivity; nevertheless, their testimony is proof that in its assessment of the situation during the period 1940-1941, the Soviet government and high command were aware of that the country was insufficiently prepared to repulse an attack by Nazi Germany – a powerful and well-armed foe…with two years of experience conducting military operations. Proceeding from objective realities of the time, the Soviet leadership did not want to give Hitler a pretext to unleash a war amid these extremely unfavorable conditions, and hoped to delay the war."

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201706221054893951-mod-declassifies-secret-wwii-report/


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    archangelski

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:17 pm

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:35 am




    "Deployed in the western Ukrainian city of Lvov, Ivanov also testified that shootouts had begun from some buildings in the city when the war broke out. Those caught with weapons proved to be Ukrainian nationalists."


    Similar to what happened during the 1939 German invasion of Poland:

    http://ww2.debello.ca/polish/vcolumn.html


    The ethnic German and the pro-German Ukrainian nationalist fifth columnists in the 1939 Poland appear to get hardly any mention in the western sources. Some of them engaged in combat against the Polish forces already before the 1st September, 1939. You can read about it in the Polish sources, mostly those from before 1989. One who was captured in the Upper Silesia on the night of 31 August - 01 September, 1939, even told his Polish captors that a full-scale invasion of Poland was only hours away.

    The ethnic German Selbschutz killed thousands of ethnic Polish civilians, during and after the invasion, only in the region of Eastern Pomerania 23 000, and thousands more elsewhere.




    Last edited by Odin of Ossetia on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:01 pm

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:"Deployed in the western Ukrainian city of Lvov, Ivanov also testified that shootouts had begun from some buildings in the city when the war broke out. Those caught with weapons proved to be Ukrainian nationalists."


    Similar to what happened during the 1939 German invasion of Poland:

    http://ww2.debello.ca/polish/vcolumn.html


    The ethnic German and the pro-German Ukrainian nationalist fifth columnists in the 1939 Poland appear to get hardly any mention in the western sources. Some of them engaged in combat against the Polish forces already before the 1st September, 1939. You can read about it in the Polish sources, mostly those from before 1989. One who was captured in the Upper Silesia on the night of 31 August - 01 September, 1939, even told his Polish captors that a full-scale invasion of Poland was only hours away.

    The ethnic German Selbschutz killed thousands of ethnic Polish civilians, during and after the invasion, only in the region of Eastern Pomerania 23 000, and thousands more elsewhere.


    Here are the numbers of the ethnic Poles massacred by the German Selbschutz during late 1939 given by region:


    Eastern Pomerania - 23 000

    Poznania - 10 000

    Ciechanowia - 3 000

    Upper Silesia - 2 000



    All of these numbers are taken from the Encyklopedia Drugiej Wojny Swiatowej published in Poland in 1975.

    I find it curious that the smallest death toll was in the Upper Silesia, despite of that the ethnic German fifth column in that region was active to a significant degree. There is also that big difference with Eastern Pomerania. The Selbschutz was disbanded by the Germans in 1940.

    The actual number of ethnic Poles massacred by the Germans in 1939 is probably even higher as the numbers above might not include those massacred by the Einsatzgruppen and the Wehrmacht.


    For the number of the ethnic Poles killed by the ethnic Ukrainian fifth columnists during September of 1939 I have no specific numbers, some of the places where massacres took place are mentioned in the link given above, but this is an incomplete list.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:40 am

    The Great Patriotic War was from 1941 to 1945 and did not actually include the invasion of Poland officially... just like the conflict between the Soviets and Japan in the east in 1939 and the conflict between the Soviets and the Finns was not part of that war either... though very much related.

    If you would like to discuss please create a separate thread in an appropriate section and I can move the posts in this thread to that new thread.


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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:19 pm

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:17 pm

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman on Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:59 am

    Great pics! So that's "Suvorov" written on the fuselage?
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    archangelski

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:29 am

    Correct : "Aleksandr Suvorov".
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:57 pm

    Gorky Park with captured German aircrafts on show :


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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:26 pm

    Very interesting. By the way, what happened to all these captured aircraft? Western allies still have lots of them in museums, but it seems none survived in the former USSR.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:34 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:Very interesting. By the way, what happened to all these captured aircraft? Western allies still have lots of them in museums, but it seems none survived in the former USSR.

    The fate of all these captured aircraft in Soviet Union is unknown to me...some survived to be tested ... others were placed in museums, at least until the early 70s ... but the majority was unfortunately scrapped
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman on Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:28 pm

    archangelski wrote:
    The fate of all these captured aircraft in Soviet Union is unknown to me...some survived to be tested ... others were placed in museums, at least until the early 70s ... but the majority was unfortunately scrapped

    Just like most American aircraft after the war. Some of each type should be preserved but there isn't much point in keeping a bunch intact long after they become obsolete.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:39 pm

    starman wrote:
    archangelski wrote:
    The fate of all these captured aircraft in Soviet Union is unknown to me...some survived to be tested ... others were placed in museums, at least until the early 70s ... but the majority was unfortunately scrapped

    Just like most American aircraft after the war. Some of each type should be preserved but there isn't much point in keeping a bunch intact long after they become obsolete.

    The Kubinka Tank Museum is full of unique pieces, some preserved from WWII, then why did they not also keep some planes ? A Bf-109G-2 was in Tsagi collection (with, at least, a Mustang Mk.1 and a Kittyhawk in US markings and a P-400 Airacobra and a Hurricane with British roundels)...then disappeared for an unknown destination.


    Last edited by archangelski on Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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