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    Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

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    GarryB
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:16 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Better reinforcement of Moscow might have led to the capture of Moscow


    You said: I interpret that as increased German focus on Moscow. Seems oddly worded.

    What I was meaning was better reinforcement by Germany of the forces going for Moscow instead of distractions to the south might have led to Moscow being captured or at least sieged but the lack of forces in the south would likely have meant no oil and a threat from the south to move north and cut off the siege...

    Well, taking much of the European USSR would've seriously reduced population or manpower to man weapons besides messed up the rail network needed to move equipment and resources.

    They already took much of european soviet land and ripped up rail lines in retreat too.

    the point is that the capture of a hub does not destroy the rails leading to the hub which can be used to supply forces trying to retake that hub. The Capture or encirclement of Moscow would not destroy the rails leading from the new production centres east of the Urals to the approaches of Moscow.

    That's what I meant by "economic objectives."

    They are only economic resources if they contribute to your economy... things like steel and oil and indeed tanks and components are considered logistical resources rather than economic ones.

    Ploesti wasn't out of range but about as good as the reich could expect. If US bombers could reach Ploesti from North Africa, they or British bombers probably could've attacked Baku--had it been taken--and maybe Astrakhan if based in Iraq. Or maybe they'd be granted access to Soviet airfields, assuming the Soviets didn't have sufficient capability to plaster Caucasus oilfields themselves.

    Ploesti was out of range if US bombers could not operate through Soviet airfields...

    But the Soviets probably wouldn't have wanted to help them, so soon after Khalkin Gol, and when they still seemed potentially dangerous at the start of '41.

    But that is the point... if the Japanese had more brains and less pride they could have simply approached the Soviets and said we want to buy your timber and oil and steel and a few of your tank designs and fighter aircraft designs instead of invading Khalkin Gol.

    The Soviets weren't hugely trusting of the Japanese, so the Japanese could increase the chances of cooperation by offering to return some territory they took in 1905 to sweeten the deal. It was in 1945 that the Japanese approached the Soviets to negotiate a peace deal with the US... by then their pride was gone and their brains told them this was their best option of the time.

    What they didn't know was that Stalin had already promised the US that the Soviets would enter the war in the Pacific at Yalta... the Americans were afraid that when the war in Europe ended they might get left with a war in the Pacific that might go on for decades, so they demanded the Soviets join the war effort there.

    Of course for the Soviets they got a lot of lost territory back finally... the Kurile islands among them...

    But in the case of Leningrad ideology played a role. Inasmuch as it was the site of the bolshevik revolution, the nazis didn't want to take it so much as destroy it.

    Don't read too much into the symbolism of post WWII claims by the Germans.

    The reality is that they split their forces into three groups, of which none of the three were actually powerful enough for the intended jobs... so the northern branch got the reduced role of secure and hold, while the south group got the priority of take oilfield and the centre group move towards moscow.

    They needed all three groups but didn't man them up with enough forces to do their jobs and were constantly switching from centre to south and often took forces from other forces when things got tough.

    In theory, from a purely economic point of view, assuming the Germans could've repaired or totally rebuilt from scratch, facilities blown up by the retreating Soviets, and keep them functioning in wartime.

    They didn't need to totally rebuild... if ISIS can extract oil from oilfields in northern iraq and syria then the germans could extract oil from oilfields in Russia.

    The oil sold would not be economic... it is not about selling it and making money... it is about getting it to tank forces and airfields to operate tanks and aircraft.

    Because in an alternate scenario it would've gotten much higher priority for capture or at least encirclement than it actually did, whereas taking Leningrad wasn't even an objective.

    It was not the objective because there was never enough resources/men/aircraft/vehicles for them to complete a three pronged attack into such a vast country.

    To change the balance you would need to draw forces from one or both of the other lines of attack. In effect they dithered shifting forces from the centre group to the south group... as you say the smaller force holding leningrad was not some huge resource they could have taken troops from to have taken moscow with... it was already a skeleton force that had its guts taken to feed the other two lines of attack.

    To have tried to encircle Moscow would have required pretty much the vast majority of the southern force to be diverted to the centre force... which would have pretty much given up all occupation of the south and probably risked a flank attack like a super stalingrad from the south to cut off the centre forces attacking moscow.

    [qutoe]
    If the German panzers encircled Moscow and the infantry finally caught up to strengthen the ring i.e. establish defensive positions, based on experience they probably could've held back a relief attempt by Zhukov. The latter did well historically in December 1941 because the Germans were still attacking; they hadn't shifted to a prepared defense.[/quote]

    They had been ordered to dig in and defend and were still pushed back.

    The temperatures involved at the time made digging in the only sensible option... at minus 40 degrees in equipment designed for a summer campaign you do not want to be caught out in the open...


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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman on Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What I was meaning was better reinforcement by Germany of the forces going for Moscow instead of distractions to the south might have led to Moscow being captured or at least sieged but the lack of forces in the south would likely have meant no oil and a threat from the south to move north and cut off the siege...

    The Germans could've taken the oilfields later, after Moscow were taken.


    They already took much of european soviet land...

    Taking even more like the area around Moscow would've helped.

    the point is that the capture of a hub does not destroy the rails leading to the hub which can be used to supply forces trying to retake that hub. The Capture or encirclement of Moscow would not destroy the rails leading from the new production centres east of the Urals to the approaches of Moscow.

    Potential problems would've included demoralization following German gains that far east, and even worse losses than occurred historically, for them to get that far.


    Ploesti was out of range if US bombers could not operate through Soviet airfields...

    I was under the impression in August '43 they struck at it from a North African base and later, in '44, from an Italian one.


    But that is the point... if the Japanese had more brains and less pride they could have simply approached the Soviets and said we want to buy your timber and oil and steel and a few of your tank designs and fighter aircraft designs instead of invading Khalkin Gol.

    But the Japanese didn't have an acute need for an alternative source of oil etc until the US embargo of 1940, well after Khalkin Gol.


    They didn't need to totally rebuild... if ISIS can extract oil from oilfields in northern iraq and syria then the germans could extract oil from oilfields in Russia.

    I don't think the oilfields were blown up before they took them.


    To have tried to encircle Moscow would have required pretty much the vast majority of the southern force to be diverted to the centre force... which would have pretty much given up all occupation of the south and probably risked a flank attack like a super stalingrad from the south to cut off the centre forces attacking moscow.

    I don't think the Soviets had much ability to conduct mobile warfare on that scale, at least not in '41. Look at their caution at Stalingrad. They could've been much more ambitious.


    They had been ordered to dig in and defend and were still pushed back.

    Strange, I thought Halder told Guderian(?) around then "to stick to the attack is the best defense."

    The temperatures involved at the time made digging in the only sensible option... at minus 40 degrees in equipment designed for a summer campaign you do not want to be caught out in the open...

    But Guderian told Adolf the ground was frozen solid and "our wretched entrenching tools won't go through it."
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:11 am

    The Germans could've taken the oilfields later, after Moscow were taken.

    They needed the oil.

    Why do you think they invaded north africa? For fun? They were going for oil in the ME.

    Taking even more like the area around Moscow would've helped.

    How?

    There is no oil there and no production facilities to take or destroy. The only value is any Soviet forces they can tie up, encircle, and destroy... they were better off going for the oil fields to the south... which is what they did.


    Potential problems would've included demoralization following German gains that far east, and even worse losses than occurred historically, for them to get that far.

    Half the Soviets fighting probably had never been to Moscow and likely could care less if it was captured. The Soviets were fighting because Germany was clearly a worse oppressor than Stalin was... taking moscow or not taking moscow would not change that.

    If the german army couldn't take Stalingrad what makes you think they could take Moscow?

    I was under the impression in August '43 they struck at it from a North African base and later, in '44, from an Italian one.

    But they landed and refuelled in Russia and then flew back to their base of origin.

    Without the Russian pit stop it would have been a one way trip.

    But the Japanese didn't have an acute need for an alternative source of oil etc until the US embargo of 1940, well after Khalkin Gol.

    The need was there, it was just made critical by the blockade by the British and Americans.

    I don't think the oilfields were blown up before they took them.

    You can't destroy an oil field with explosives... just temporarily deny access.

    The German forces could have brought their own oil drilling equipment... if they can move Tigers that far they can sail across the Black sea with drilling equipment.

    I don't think the Soviets had much ability to conduct mobile warfare on that scale, at least not in '41. Look at their caution at Stalingrad. They could've been much more ambitious.

    Stalingrad was a trap. A carefully planned and executed trap. They drip fed forces into Stalingrad at a rate so that the Germans thought they were gradually taking control and when they thought that victory was in sight the trap was sprung.

    All those forces built up for the pincer movement could have been feed into the city to keep the Germans from making ground but at the end of the day it was easier to let them progress to focus their attention on the fight in front of their noses so they ignored the bigger force being built up that would eventually surround them and defeat them more efficiently than a frontal assault would.

    The difference is that the blocking force in Moscow was enough to stop the German attack... there was no need to let then in and let them take most of moscow to then build up a force to surround and then siege them...

    There was enough force to stop them entering properly and push them back without going through the hardship of a siege in a city.


    Strange, I thought Halder told Guderian(?) around then "to stick to the attack is the best defense."

    Hahahaha... at minus 30 degrees C in summer grade uniforms I would like to see the performance of that attack...

    But Guderian told Adolf the ground was frozen solid and "our wretched entrenching tools won't go through it."

    Which is why you don't advance in the open... you find cover... like buildings... and you try to stay there if you can... when those siberians are coming however it is not so easy... especially when your tanks with their thin tracks wont run...



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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:07 am

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:28 am

    @GunshipDemocracy:

    https://www.rt.com/news/364772-poland-soviet-memorials-volunteers/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

    Outraged by the rise of vandalism against memorials to Soviet soldiers in Poland, a group of volunteers has pledged to restore any damaged monuments. Russia’s Foreign Ministry spokeswoman thanked the Polish patriots for preserving the common history of the two states.

    Polish activist Erzy Tyc, who heads a movement restoring and preserving memorials to Soviet soldiers in the Eastern European country, has visited Russia and met with Foreign Ministry representative Maria Zakharova.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman on Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:They needed the oil.

    Why do you think they invaded north africa? For fun? They were going for oil in the ME.

    No, basically the DAK went to Africa just to prevent the Italians from collapsing completely. There was little if any oil production, yet, in Libya in 1940-43. Rommel may have wanted to go all the way to Basra but the high command seemed content just to keep British forces tied down in Africa.




    How?
    There is no oil there and no production facilities to take or destroy. The only value is any Soviet forces they can tie up, encircle, and destroy... they were better off going for the oil fields to the south... which is what they did.

    Well by taking the area they could've deprived European Russia of even more territory from which to get recruits.


    Half the Soviets fighting probably had never been to Moscow and likely could care less if it was captured. The Soviets were fighting because Germany was clearly a worse oppressor than Stalin was... taking moscow or not taking moscow would not change that.

    OK half--that still left half who would've cared; besides it would've made many more feel the Wehrmacht was unstoppable. If they can't even defend the capital, what's the use?  Many Soviets btw collaborated with the Germans despite their racial views.

    If the german army couldn't take Stalingrad what makes you think they could take Moscow?

    Stalingrad was on the west bank of the Volga. Their tanks couldn't swim across the river and encircle it from behind. Guderian was willing to go after Moscow as was Halder and presumably other "pros."

    But they landed and refuelled in Russia and then flew back to their base of origin.

    What base in Russia?
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:53 pm

    Blyaaaaaa revisionism again in this thread?

    Moscow was out of reach once Orel happened. German failure at Orel doomed the Moscow movement. The tying up and subsequent transfer of troops from Eastern Theater to Western Theater made sure that Germans would never threaten Moscow again.
    NEVER.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:03 am

    Well by taking the area they could've deprived European Russia of even more territory from which to get recruits.

    Stalin was getting plenty of recruits from occupied areas...

    OK half--that still left half who would've cared; besides it would've made many more feel the Wehrmacht was unstoppable. If they can't even defend the capital, what's the use? Many Soviets btw collaborated with the Germans despite their racial views.

    Hahahahahahaha... yeah... if there is anything you can say about the Soviets is that they give up real easy. The Germans were stopped at the gates of Moscow in 1941... they knew they could be stopped. Moscow was just another city... the germans didn't have the forces to take it let alone hold it.

    If they had tried they would have been overstretched and would have gotten thrashed in the aftermath.


    Stalingrad was on the west bank of the Volga. Their tanks couldn't swim across the river and encircle it from behind. Guderian was willing to go after Moscow as was Halder and presumably other "pros."

    They could not even punch through the forces surrounding Stalingrad when the trap was sprung... how the hell could they deal with the forces that would be put up to defend Moscow?

    What base in Russia?

    Three bases in the Ukraine were used in 1944 to attack targets deep in eastern europe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Frantic


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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:12 pm

    For realz guys, it is a deep mystique in Eastern Europe. I was taught that the definite loss of the German armed forces in the USSR was not because they didn't go for Moscow, but that went for the USSR too late in the year. End of June left 4 months tops to have rapid maneuver warfare. Once the Germans started getting bogged down, the game was lost and for two years (42/43) the Germans were only playing grab as much as you can during fair weather in order to lose the least possible during the counter offensives and harsh times. This however went hand in hand with other issues that the Germans hadn't foreseen. Huge swathes of the country they had just occupied weren't totally under their control. Huge masses of partizans, isolated battle groups, displaced people started creating real issues, tying down substantial policing troops and forcing the Germans to commit further acts of genocide that they hadn't planned on top of the planned bullet genocide and mass deportations.

    Basically Germany had no frigging chance to fight the Soviet Union once this behemoth mobilized. The rest is history.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Khepesh on Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:34 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Blyaaaaaa revisionism again in this thread?

    Moscow was out of reach once Orel happened. German failure at Orel doomed the Moscow movement. The tying up and subsequent transfer of troops from Eastern Theater to Western Theater made sure that Germans would never threaten Moscow again.
    NEVER.
    100% and too often overlooked. Battle of Mtsensk in early October 1941. 4th Tank Brigade commanded by Mikhail Katukov thumped Guderian's 2 Panzerarmee in the face and made them shit their pants, and caused Guderian to ask Hitler to copy T-34. This battle is not liked in West because it showed that small number of well led and well equiped Red Army forces could stop the Nazis, when the west prefers it to be hordes of "Mongols" with only front rank armed with rifles and NKVD shooting everybody in the back if they don't run into battle fast enough.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:36 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Blyaaaaaa revisionism again in this thread?

    Moscow was out of reach once Orel happened. German failure at Orel doomed the Moscow movement. The tying up and subsequent transfer of troops from Eastern Theater to Western Theater made sure that Germans would never threaten Moscow again.
    NEVER.
    100% and too often overlooked. Battle of Mtsensk in early October 1941. 4th Tank Brigade commanded by Mikhail Katukov thumped Guderian's 2 Panzerarmee in the face and made them shit their pants, and caused Guderian to ask Hitler to copy T-34. This battle is not liked in West because it showed that small number of well led and well equiped Red Army forces could stop the Nazis, when the west prefers it to be hordes of "Mongols" with only front rank armed with rifles and NKVD shooting everybody in the back if they don't run into battle fast enough.


    But that was not really a "pitched" battle, but rather a very huge and successful ambush.

    Besides the Soviet 4th Tank Brigade there were also some airborne troops also participating in that battle on the Soviet side, fighting as elite infantry.

    There was also a certain element of surprise, as that was the first ever battle where the Soviets inflicted a major defeat on the German armored forces.

    Some German commanders were put to court martial afterwards.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:39 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:For realz guys, it is a deep mystique in Eastern Europe. I was taught that the definite loss of the German armed forces in the USSR was not because they didn't go for Moscow, but that went for the USSR too late in the year. End of June left 4 months tops to have rapid maneuver warfare. Once the Germans started getting bogged down, the game was lost and for two years (42/43) the Germans were only playing grab as much as you can during fair weather in order to lose the least possible during the counter offensives and harsh times. This however went hand in hand with other issues that the Germans hadn't foreseen. Huge swathes of the country they had just occupied weren't totally  under their control. Huge masses of partizans, isolated battle groups, displaced people started creating real issues, tying down substantial policing troops and forcing the Germans to commit further acts of genocide that they hadn't planned on top of the planned bullet genocide and mass deportations.

    Basically Germany had no frigging chance to fight the Soviet Union once this behemoth mobilized. The rest is history.


    You can check some related links on this matter:


    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-ZiemiLubelskiej.html

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-SynowieMazowsza.html

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-ZiemiKieleckiej.html

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-GL.html

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-GL42.html

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-Rablow.html

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Khepesh on Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:47 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:

    Besides the Soviet 4th Tank Brigade there were also some airborne troops also participating in that battle on the Soviet side, fighting as elite infantry.

    I know, but I didn't want to write a wall of text and name every unit, like 201st VDV Brigade, 9th Mortar Regiment, 11th Tank Brigade etc etc. 4th Tank Brigade was the single most powerful unit and were foremost unit of 1st Guards Rifle Corps, and without their presence and abilities of Katukov there may not have been the same success. That after the battle the brigade was renamed 1st Guards Tank Brigade, the first tank unit of any size to be named "Guards", shows importance of 4th Tank Brigade in the battle. Of course it needed all the other units, and I am aware that of the seven men awarded "Hero of Soviet Union" after the battle, six were from aviation regiments, the seventh was a company commander of 4th Tank Brigade.

    While certainly it was not a large battle, the consequences of stalling 2 Panzerarmee's march on Tula served a similar function to Thermopylae, and the after effects of the battle were far greater than it's size as regards number of forces involved.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:44 am

    The irony is that because the Germans treated the soviets like animals the soviets had little real choice but to either fight or be exterminated.

    Of course you can't mention genocide regarding WWII unless you are referring to the Jews, because they were the only victims of WWII genocide...

    Added to the fact that the only perspective we heard from the eastern front after the war that could be trusted was from the new allies west germans who largely blamed hitler for the defeat.

    The Soviets were the enemy... you could not give them any credit for knowing how to fight... it was obviously the combination of Hitler and winter and lend lease that kept the Soviets alive until D Day won the war.


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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:13 am

    Khepesh wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Blyaaaaaa revisionism again in this thread?

    Moscow was out of reach once Orel happened. German failure at Orel doomed the Moscow movement. The tying up and subsequent transfer of troops from Eastern Theater to Western Theater made sure that Germans would never threaten Moscow again.
    NEVER.
    100% and too often overlooked. Battle of Mtsensk in early October 1941. 4th Tank Brigade commanded by Mikhail Katukov thumped Guderian's 2 Panzerarmee in the face and made them shit their pants, and caused Guderian to ask Hitler to copy T-34. This battle is not liked in West because it showed that small number of well led and well equiped Red Army forces could stop the Nazis, when the west prefers it to be hordes of "Mongols" with only front rank armed with rifles and NKVD shooting everybody in the back if they don't run into battle fast enough.

    Subhumans did what? Can they do that? Etc etc etc.

    But frankly Orel was as huge as they come. Tactically it looked like nothing, strategically, only "mishap". But it would have long resounding consequences. Because it gained a month worth of a shaping battle and forced Guderian to rethink the attack on Tula, that the Germans never captured...

    It's the most "butterfly effect" stalling engagement that one could ever see.

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  kvs on Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:37 am

    Once again, politically approved historiography in the west is a total joke. It is clear that the agenda is to paint Russians
    (then Soviets) as untermenschen.



    This logo is very peculiar for the "victors over Nazism". It has a distinct Swastika aspect to it which is very striking when
    the image is reduced in size:



    NATO's rabid support for Banderites in Ukraine just confirms that the Nazi Germany was not some total aberration. Hitler was
    supposed to overrun the USSR. He was given plenty of industrial and energy support during the 1930s and 1940s. The
    western "allies" opened up a second front only when it was clear that the USSR could roll all the way to the Atlantic.
    If Hitler had succeeded the Reich would be around today. The Nazis are only demonized in the west because they lost.
    But the scummy nature of this sort of thinking manifests itself as routine appeals to General Winter and "human wave"
    attacks by Soviets (which never happened) to account why the western ubermenschen failed basically by 1942.

    Gorbachov was indeed a comprador since it was clear that NATO would smoothly transition to an anti-Russian alliance.
    If he was not a sellout he would have demanded a treaty to prevent NATO expansion eastward. Accepting some
    promise was clearly a corrupt decision and not some mistake.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:39 am

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:40 am

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:47 pm

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman on Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Of course you can't mention genocide regarding WWII unless you are referring to the Jews, because they were the only victims of WWII genocide...

    Soviet losses were around four times greater than jewish losses and the ideological rationale and goal was the same--extermination of an "inferior race." Why then, has "the holocaust" (should be a holocaust) gotten infinitely more media attention? You can't blame it on the cold war, which ended a quarter century ago.
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    GarryB
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:06 am

    Because pro jewish elements influence western media.

    They don't want competition to be the victims of WWII... the Soviets losing rather more people to Hitler would take the victim medal away from them and turn them into a group that didn't do much to help themselves.

    What they do have now is money and the influence that comes with being able to pick and choose US presidential candidates...


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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman on Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:Because pro jewish elements influence western media.

    Jewish and pro-jewish elements inordinately influence western media, and government, especially in the US. The worst manifestation of that, IMO, is our Mideast policy.

    They don't want competition to be the victims of WWII... the Soviets losing rather more people to Hitler would take the victim medal away from them and turn them into a group that didn't do much to help themselves.

    Or us. Soviet sacrifices paved the way for US success in the West, so failure to acknowledge those sacrifices is all the more ludicrous. I don't know what the holocaust preaching/pro-Israel bunch ever did for us; they just leech us. The Israelis did hand over Soviet made weapons they captured and destroyed Osirak in '81 but IMO the significance of both has been greatly overrated.

    What they do have now is money and the influence that comes with being able to pick and choose US presidential candidates...

    True--a terrible shame and national disgrace.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:43 am

    The Israelis did hand over Soviet made weapons they captured and destroyed Osirak in '81 but IMO the significance of both has been greatly overrated.

    They hand over when it suits them.

    Most of the secrets they had regarding SA-2s and other systems were handed over just after they murdered over 30 Americans on board the USS Liberty...

    If they were such friends why didn't they hand over such information before as such information would be very useful for the US in Vietnam...


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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman on Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:50 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Most of the secrets they had regarding SA-2s and other systems were handed over just after they murdered over 30 Americans on board the USS Liberty...

    You mean they got those secrets prior to the '67 war? Egypt had SA-2s at Cairo West then; dunno if any were captured in Sinai.
    Btw I was glad to see New Zealand voted for that UN resolution. Smile Politicians here are way too cowardly to stand up for what's right.
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:38 pm


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