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    Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

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    archangelski
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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski on Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:15 pm

    Even Lend Leased ones are only a small handful now (on the thousand delivered). It's a shame that such memories have not persisted for future generations.
    At least Kubinka museum has preserved some interesting pieces in tanks.
    Thanks for additional pictures DTA.

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:01 pm

    I don't know if these images have been posted on this forum; so here we go.






    Odin of Ossetia
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    Need Help About Soviet Partisans in Poland (About a certain libelous claim).

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:19 pm

    Hello.


    I need help from someone with a good knowledge of the Soviet partisans during the Second World War.

    There is a book out there (cannot post any links about it since new members cannot do it for the first seven days), titled The Polish Underground 1939-1947 (Campaign Chronicles) authored by David G. Williamson.


    I do not know why that author wrote that book, since from its contents it is clear that he knows very little about the Polish Resistance Movement during the Second World War. The book contains factual errors, and a number of amazingly glaring omissions, while at times it covers some trivial incidents in detail.



    Here is my problem (one of many with this book), and why I need help here:

    The author states in the book that Petro Vershyhora's Soviet partisan raiders during a couple of months of their stay in eastern Poland-proper caused more damage to the Germans and their collaborators than did all the Polish resistance organizations combined since the start of the German occupation in late 1939 in that part of Poland-proper.


    The big problem I have with this claim is that it is simply false.



    Just to illustrate what I mean (only by a few examples):


    1) The GL (People's Guard) alone derailed 194 trains during 1942-1943, a significant portion of these derailments took place in the eastern Poland-proper.

    2) Only during a single action carried out in late 1942 the GL partisans freed some 500 (at least one Isreali source states it was 600) Jewish slave laborers from a camp at Janiszow, in the eastern Poland-proper.

    3) During the night of 31 December, 1942, - 01 January, 1943, the AK (Army of the Land) and the BCh (Peasant Battalions) launched 60 armed attacks against the Germans and their collaborators in Zamojszczyzna.

    4) During the Battle of Zaboreczno fought in early 1943 in Zamojszczyzna the Polish BCh (mostly) & AK partisans killed around 150 armed Germans (over 100 policemen, and at least a few dozens more from the Landwacht), and wounded close to 200 others; the Polish partisans had only one killed.

    5) During the first half of 1944 the AL (People's Army) in the District of Lublin delayed the German railway traffic by at least 45 days, according to the most conservative estimates.

    6) Only during 1944 the local Polish resistance derailed 26 German trains in the area of Krasnystaw.

    7) Over 160 German colonists killed only during one attack carried out in early 1943 on the colonized village of Cieszyn in Zamojszczyzna; Polish partisans had only one killed (mortally wounded).



    So if the Soviet partisans of Petro Vershyhora did more, precisely how many Germans, their collaborators, and satellite troops did they kill/wound/capture?

    How many trains did they derail?

    How many prisoners did they free?



    If you do reply and provide any pertinent data, can you also give sources, like books, articles, even links to Internet pages?

    I can back up all my claims, but currently cannot post any links for the next seven days.



    I have seen a joint Polish-Soviet movie about these Soviet partisans of Vershyhora, its title translated into English is Between the Bug River and Vistula, and it shows them upon their arrival in the eastern Poland-proper as a rather exhausted bunch suffering from serious shortage of ammunition. How come these Soviet partisans could have done anything extraordinary in Poland without any ammunition? That lack of ammunition is repeatedly and very explicitly mentioned in the movie. The only really remarkable thing they did was shelling of some facility with artillery, but then the Polish partisans did not had artillery. The movie also showed that these Soviet partisans needed the help from the local Polish (AK, AL, BCh) partisans in order to survive.


    Amazingly this lousy, misleading, and uninformative book received a bunch of flattering reviews at Amazon.


    Last edited by Odin of Ossetia on Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:35 pm; edited 3 times in total

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:59 am

    Hi Odin,

    Sorry I can't help you with your question, but would like to inform you that one of the rules of this forum is that you post an introduction in the rules and introductions section.

    No need to delete anything, but an introduction thread would be appreciated... ta.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:54 pm



    There is another instance when the author "over-credits" the Soviets in this book.

    He claims that the GL (People's Guard) received air drops from the Soviets during 1942, but in reality that too is false.


    The GL did not receive a single air drop from the Soviets (or anybody) during entire 1942.

    There was a single air drop by the Soviets into the occupied Poland at the end of 1941, before even the GL was even founded (during early January of 1942); several people were parachuted (the future leaders of the GL) together with a very small quantity of firearms and ammunition, and I think also a radio transmitter. After that there was nothing for the entire 1942; the Soviets did not made their first ever air drop to the GL until 1943.



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    Soviet army in ww2 - advantages and disadvantages

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:58 pm

    I would like someone with decent knowledge of USSR military (like Garry or FP or whoever) about what exactly were the advantages and disadvantages of Red Army vs Wehrmacht and US army in ww2L

    It should cover whatever can be covered - training of individual soldiers, equipment, organization, performance at tactical, operational and strategic levels.

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:01 pm

    Geez... you aren't asking for much are you...

    In 1941 the German army and the german airforce supporting it was a well oiled machine that worked together with excellent communication and excellent leadership and generally good equipment, though not necessarily the best available.

    It attacked a Soviet Union totally unprepared in the middle of a rearmament that involved the introduction of lots of brand new gear... Polikarpovs were being replaced with Yak-1s and MiG-3s and LaGG-3s... not exceptional planes but would develop into excellent aircraft as engines and weapons improved. In armour the T-26s and T-32s and other deathtraps were being replaced by T-34s and KV-1s... The Germans even adopted the Soviet 76.2mm artillery and adopted the use of 120mm mortars as widely as the soviets did (an excellent weapon).

    the Soviets learned some very hard lessons and lost a lot of men and equipment in the process.

    to be continued.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:43 pm

    Ok, I know about that. But every army of ww2 had it's own distinct strength and weakesses and I want to know those of Red ARmy and how the entire war machine changed from 1941 to 1945. I am not much interested in AF and Navy, only in ground forces.

    I also want to know what was the level of training and command of small sized Soviet units (platoons, companies) vs their German, Us and British equivalent. Napoleon once said that one Mamluk can beat 2 French, 10 French and 10 Mamluks would fight to a draw and 1000 French soldiers could easily beat 10,000 Mamluks.

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:25 am

    I am not much interested in AF and Navy, only in ground forces

    You are not interested in a US Army and German Army strength?

    Their better communications meant better coordination of artillery and air power in attacks, which was normally a strength until bad weather meant air power was not available and air observation was grounded too.

    The Soviet ground forces learned to fight without air cover... and in fact learned to fight under enemy air attack... once the Red Air Force rebuilt and strengthened to the point where they could contribute they greatly assisted, but not as well coordinated with the army as in the german and US air forces... but with the Germans that was a problem when the soviet air force started dominating the air because they lost capability when they lost air control.

    It is clear how the Soviets vs Germans and US vs Germans went, but not so easy to guesstimate how the Soviet vs US could be compared because I think the US forces would suffer without air support like the Germans did, but I don't think the soviets would suffer as much without air power support... which makes air power a strength for the Soviets, but a strength and a weakness for the US and Germans

    Throughout the war the size of Soviet army divisions got smaller and smaller, but their fire power and effectiveness and their mechanisation greatly increased. The Red Army Handbook, by... I think Steven J Zaloga showed part of that change very well by listing and showing pictorially the vehicle strengths as they changed during the war.

    Regarding strengths early in the war Stalin thought he was a great military leader and with some bad decisions cost the Soviets a lot of men and equipment, and later on he backed off and let his military make more of the decisions which resulted in more successes but occasionally some failures too.

    But then you will probably also say you know all of this too, so how about you tell the story and ask us to provide input and opinion/corrections?


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Celebration of 8000 US to Siberia planes in WW11

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:24 pm

    This was news to me, Russia flying over 700 B-25s in WW11.

    Now, in another 70th anniversary celebration, the air ferry operation is going to be publicised, this is fascinating stuff

    A group Russian and American WWII-era warplane enthusiasts looking to commemorate the joint Soviet-Allied victory over Nazi Germany have decided to revive the Alaska-Siberia air route once used to ferry American warplanes to the USSR under the Lend-Lease program, flying several war-vintage aircraft from Great Falls, Montana all the way to Siberia.

    The event, called Alaska-Siberia 2015, is being held in cooperation between Russian aviation company Rusavia and the US non-profit Bravo 369 Flight Foundation, recreating the famous air route used by US and Soviet pilots from 1942-1945 which sent nearly 8,000 aircraft to the Soviet Union under the Lend-Lease program.

    Launching from Great Falls, Montana on Monday, two Douglas C-47 transport aircraft purchased by Rusavia will make the 9,700 km trip all the way to Krasnoyarsk, Siberia, accompanied to Alaska by a group of North American Aviation T-6 Texan trainer aircraft. Piloted by Russian, American and Canadian crews, the Douglas C-47s will arrive in Alaska at the end of the month, crossing the Bering Strait July 27-28, and arriving in Krasnoyarsk on August 4. After that, the planes will continue on to Moscow, ending up at the MAKS-2015 aviation show, set to open August 25.


    There is lots more and a map, what a journey: http://sputniknews.com/art_living/20150720/1024846771.html#ixzz3gSedB9ys

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  DTA on Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:33 am

    JohninMK wrote:This was news to me, Russia flying over 700 B-25s in WW11.



    interview with B-25 pilot
    http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/dudakov/dudakov.htm (english)

    and some photos




    more interesting story of B-17 and B-24 in Soviet Air force , this planes were not sent by lend-lease programme but restored after landing in Poland and Belorussia or in russian Far East
    With other planes of soviet long-range aviation they made a lot of combat flights.
    For example to the july 1945 890 regiment had 9 Pe-8, 19 B-25 , 12 B-17
    203 Guard aviation regiment had 17 Pe-8, 2 B-25,  19 B-24 to the same date


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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:29 pm

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:Hello.


    I need help from someone with a good knowledge of the Soviet partisans during the Second World War.

    There is a book out there (cannot post any links about it since new members cannot do it for the first seven days), titled The Polish Underground 1939-1947 (Campaign Chronicles) authored by David G. Williamson.


    I do not know why that author wrote that book, since from its contents it is clear that he knows very little about the Polish Resistance Movement during the Second World War. The book contains factual errors, and a number of amazingly glaring omissions, while at times it covers some trivial incidents in detail.



    Here is my problem (one of many with this book), and why I need help here:

    The author states in the book that Petro Vershyhora's Soviet partisan raiders during a couple of months of their stay in eastern Poland-proper caused more damage to the Germans and their collaborators than did all the Polish resistance organizations combined since the start of the German occupation in late 1939 in that part of Poland-proper.


    The big problem I have with this claim is that it is simply false.



    Just to illustrate what I mean (only by a few examples):


    1) The GL (People's Guard) alone derailed 194 trains during 1942-1943, a significant portion of these derailments took place in the eastern Poland-proper.

    2) Only during a single action carried out in late 1942 the GL partisans freed some 500 (at least one Isreali source states it was 600) Jewish slave laborers from a camp at Janiszow, in the eastern Poland-proper.

    3) During the night of 31 December, 1942, - 01 January, 1943, the AK (Army of the Land) and the BCh (Peasant Battalions) launched 60 armed attacks against the Germans and their collaborators in Zamojszczyzna.

    4) During the Battle of Zaboreczno fought in early 1943 in Zamojszczyzna the Polish BCh (mostly) & AK partisans killed around 150 armed Germans (over 100 policemen, and at least a few dozens more from the Landwacht), and wounded close to 200 others; the Polish partisans had only one killed.

    5) During the first half of 1944 the AL (People's Army) in the District of Lublin delayed the German railway traffic by at least 45 days, according to the most conservative estimates.

    6) Only during 1944 the local Polish resistance derailed 26 German trains in the area of Krasnystaw.

    7) Over 160 German colonists killed only during one attack carried out in early 1943 on the colonized village of Cieszyn in Zamojszczyzna; Polish partisans had only one killed (mortally wounded).



    So if the Soviet partisans of Petro Vershyhora did more, precisely how many Germans, their collaborators, and satellite troops did they kill/wound/capture?

    How many trains did they derail?

    How many prisoners did they free?



    If you do reply and provide any pertinent data, can you also give sources, like books, articles, even links to Internet pages?

    I can back up all my claims, but currently cannot post any links for the next seven days.



    I have seen a joint Polish-Soviet movie about these Soviet partisans of Vershyhora, its title translated into English is Between the Bug River and Vistula, and it shows them upon their arrival in the eastern Poland-proper as a rather exhausted bunch suffering from serious shortage of ammunition. How come these Soviet partisans could have done anything extraordinary in Poland without any ammunition? That lack of ammunition is repeatedly and very explicitly mentioned in the movie. The only really remarkable thing they did was shelling of some facility with artillery, but then the Polish partisans did not had artillery. The movie also showed that these Soviet partisans needed the help from the local Polish (AK, AL, BCh) partisans in order to survive.


    Amazingly this lousy, misleading, and uninformative book received a bunch of flattering reviews at Amazon.


    One more thing I wanted to point out about the book and its author.

    That guy has some kind of a deep hatred of the Poles from the Lublin region; he claims that the Polish troops who created the failed bridgeheads to aid the Warsaw Uprising were "useless" and that they werre "recent conscripts from the Lublin region."

    First of all they were not useless.

    Second, they were not from the Lublin region, but actually they were either predominantly or entirely ethnic Poles from what are now the western parts of Belarus and Ukraine, and the eastern portion of Lithuania.

    Lublinia itself was not liberated until late July of 1944, while the attempted relief efforts by the Polish People's Military to help the Warsaw Uprising took place only weeks later; the LWP troops were never simply recruited, trained, and dispatched to the front-line after such a short period of time.



    Here is a post-war movie about the "useless" troops:





    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrUKsYWEuWE

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  DTA on Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:25 pm

    Minsk after liberation 1944


    Minsk trials over warcriminals 1946


    Execution of warcriminals at Minsk trial 1946 18+

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  DTA on Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:44 pm

    Soviet Belarus . Kinojournal № 1, 1942 год.


    Novosti Dnya(Daily news ). Stalingrad


    Novosti Dnya. On the airfield


    Novosti Dnya. At Karelian Front

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:44 pm

    Off Topic

    I am posting this Sputnik article on several treads for all you guys to have at hand next time someone tries to give you a lecture about how "Evil Russians were allies with Nazis".

    http://www.sputniknews.com/politics/20150823/1026098760/molotov-ribbentrop-pact-untold-story.html

    Earlier I posted Telegraph's article that they reference in this one, but here is the link again, just in case:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html

    --------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------

    Untold Story of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact

    The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, inked by the USSR and Nazi Germany on August 23, 1939, is now used by Western "experts" and mainstream media to accuse the Soviet Union of "colluding" with Hitler and "betraying" his would be French and British allies, but evidence suggests otherwise.

    http://www.sputniknews.com/politics/20150823/1026098760/molotov-ribbentrop-pact-untold-story.html

    On August 23, 1939 the USSR and Nazi Germany singed a Treaty of Non-aggression, also known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact; the document still triggers fierce debate, prompting the West to accuse the USSR of "colluding" with Hitler on the eve of the Second World War.

    Furthermore, since 2008 on this day European countries mark "European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism."

    "It's an annual event [August 23], anxiously awaited by western Russophobic propagandists, to remind us of the iniquitous Soviet role in starting World War II. Nowadays of course when the mainstream media say "Soviet," they want you to think about Russia and its president Vladimir Putin. Western "journalists" can't make up their minds about Putin: sometimes he's another Hitler, sometimes another Stalin," Professor Michael Jabara Carley of the University of Montreal emphasizes.

    Curiously enough, Western "experts" and mass media remain silent about the fact that most major European powers had signed similar treaties with Adolf Hitler earlier than the Soviet Union did.

    The Grand Alliance that Never Was

    For instance, Poland, the avowed "victim" of the Soviet-Germany non-aggression pact, had inked a non-aggression treaty with Nazi Germany on January 26, 1934.

    "During the 1930s Poland played a spoiler's role. It was a far-right quasi-dictatorship, anti-Semitic and sympathetic to fascism. In 1934, as the USSR raised the alarm about Hitler, Poland signed a non-aggression pact in Berlin. Who stabbed who in the back?" Carley asked rhetorically.

    While pointing the finger at the USSR for moving into territories of "Poland" (when no state of Poland existed any longer after German invasion of September 1, 1939) some Western historians are again demonstrating a peculiar form of amnesia, apparently forgetting that these very territories — Western Ukraine and Western Belarus — were annexed by Poland during the Polish-Soviet War (1919 — 1921). The war was unilaterally unleashed by Warsaw against the USSR, torn and devastated by the civil war.

    In general, the USSR returned its own territories — with the exception of the small piece of Bukovina — that were grabbed by other European players during the chaos of the Revolution of 1917 and the Civil War of the 1920s, Russian historian, politician and diplomat Nataliya Narotchnitskaya noted in her book "Za Chto i S Kem My Voyevali" ("Who We Were Fighting and What For").

    "Until 1939, Poland did all it could to sabotage Soviet efforts to build an anti-Nazi alliance, based on the World War I anti-German coalition of France, Britain, Italy, and in 1917 the United States… In 1934-1935, when the USSR sought a mutual assistance pact with France, Poland attempted to obstruct it," Carley emphasized.

    But what about Britain and France? Surprisingly, in the 1930s neither London nor Paris hastened to join the USSR's anti-German coalition. Carley pointed to the fact that it was Maksim Litvinov, the Soviet Commissar for Foreign Affairs, backed by the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, "who first conceived of the 'Grand Alliance' against Hitler." However, "Litvinov's coalition became the Grand Alliance that Never Was."

    Historians agree that European conservative elites viewed Adolf Hitler a less "evil" than Soviet Russia. Moreover, according to American economist Guido Giacomo Preparata, for the British and American establishment Nazism was seen as a driving force that could dismantle the USSR, thus far finishing what was started by World War I — complete dissolution of the former Russian Empire.

    "To Churchill, [Stanley ]Baldwin [the UK's prime minister] would thus sum it up in July 1936: 'If there is any fighting in Europe to be done, I should like to see the Bolshies [Bolsheviks] and the Nazis doing it'," Preparata wrote in his book "Conjuring Hitler: How Britain and America Made the Third Reich."

    Meanwhile European and American elites were not only unwilling to establish any alliances with the Soviet Union, but also poured money into Nazi Germany's economy, facilitating the rise of the Nazi war machine.

    Prestigious British arms manufacturer Vickers-Armstrong supplied heavy weaponry to Berlin, while US companies Pratt & Whitney, Douglas, Bendix Aviation, to name but a few, provided German firms — BMW, Siemens and others — with patents, military secrets and state-of-art airplane engines, Preparata pointed out.

    The Munich Betrayal of 1938

    The final accord of this game was the Munich Agreement signed by the major powers of Europe (Britain, Germany, France, Italy) excluding the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia, on September 30, 1938, that permitted Nazi Germany to annex northern and western border regions of Czechoslovakia.

    Embarrassingly, British archival documents released in 2013 exposed that the UK not only betrayed Czechoslovakia by allowing Hitler to invade it, but also voluntarily handed over nearly $9 million worth of gold that belonged to Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany. The Czechoslovak golden bullions were immediately sent to Hitler in March 1939, when he seized Prague.

    The Munich Betrayal of September 29-30, 1938 is the actual date of the beginning of the Second World War, Director of the Center for Russian Studies at the Moscow University for Humanities and the Institute of System Strategic Analysis, historian and publicist Andrei Fursov underscores, citing Churchill's letter to Major Ewal von Kleist, a member of the German resistance group and emissary of the German General Staff, just before Hitler's seizure of Czechoslovakia:

    "I am sure that the crossing of the Czechoslovak frontier by German armies or aircraft will bring about a renewal of world war… Such a war once started, would be fought out like the last [WWI] to the bitter end, and one must consider not what might happen in the first few months, but where we should all be at the end of the third or fourth year."

    And that is not all. Incredible as it may seem, the British government actually prevented a plot aimed against Adolf Hitler in 1938. A group of German high-ranking military officials planned to arrest Hitler at the moment Nazi Fuhrer ordered the attack on Czechoslovakia. Inexplicably, the British political establishment not only refused to help the resistance but ruined its plans.

    In his essay "Finest Hour Regime Change, 1938: Did Chamberlain 'Miss the Bus'?" British author Michael McMenamin narrated: "there is no historical doubt that the German resistance repeatedly warned the British of Hitler's intention to invade Czechoslovakia in September 1938… In response, however, the Chamberlain government took every diplomatic step it could… to undermine Hitler's opposition."

    Whatever Chamberlain's motivation was, instead of beating the drums over Hitler's aggression in Europe, on September 28, 1939 he "proposed [Fuhrer] a five-power conference between Britain, Germany, Czechoslovakia, France and Italy, where, Chamberlain assured Hitler, Germany could 'get all essentials without war and without delay'," McMenamin wrote citing official documents, and added that Chamberlain also turned a blind eye to the fact that Germany excluded Czechoslovakia from the conference.

    After the four powers agreed to accept German occupation of Czechoslovakia's Sudetenland before any plebiscite and coerced the Czechs to go along, Chamberlain and Hitler inked the British-German Non-aggression Agreement, the author underscored.

    Interestingly enough, Professor Carley narrated that during the Czechoslovak crisis Poland (the would-be "victim" of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact) demanded that if "Hitler was to get the Sudeten territories, Poland should have the Teschen district [in Czechoslovakia]. In other words, if Hitler gets his booty, we Poles want ours."

    So, who colluded with whom? Who were the betrayers?

    Why Is West Demonizing Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

    According to Andrei Fursov, in Munich the four powers created a "proto-NATO bloc" that was actually aimed against the USSR. Czechoslovakia's industrial complex was meant to facilitate the growth of the German military might and ensure its ability to launch a big war against "Bolshies" in the East, in order to extend the German Lebensraum. And European elites were interested in this war, expected to exhaust both Germany and Russia.

    In light of this, the only move to undermine this plan and postpone its realization was to conclude a similar non-aggression pact between the USSR and Germany. Furthermore, the delay helped the Soviet Union to accumulate its resources in the face of an inevitable invasion from the West.

    Michael Jabara Carley cited Winston Churchill, then First Lord of the Admiralty, who said on October 1, 1939, in an interview to the British national broadcaster that Soviet action "was clearly necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace."

    Why then is the West making every effort to demonize the Soviet-German Non-aggression Treaty, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? Professor Carley noted that it is a vain attempt to white-wash Europe's grave mistakes of the 1930s, namely the incapability (or unwillingness?) to halt the rise of Nazi Germany and to establish an anti-Hitler alliance in the early 1930s.

    "These days western governments and their 'inspired' journalists, if one can call them journalists, don't worry about 'tendentious' argument when it comes to blackening the Russian Federation. It's anything goes. Should we let them equate the roles of the USSR and Nazi Germany for starting World War II? Certainly not. It was Hitler who intended war, and the French and British, especially the British, who repeatedly played into his hands, rejecting Soviet proposals for collective security and pressuring France to do the same," Professor Carley stressed.

    http://www.sputniknews.com/politics/20150823/1026098760/molotov-ribbentrop-pact-untold-story.html

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  DTA on Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:41 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    http://www.sputniknews.com/politics/20150823/1026098760/molotov-ribbentrop-pact-untold-story.html

    few month ago i have a discussion on themess about soviet politics toward germany and polish politics in 30 years .
    i don't want to re-write the same, here my posts.

    ps . I agree that Soviet actions againt baltics, finland and poland in 39-40 years were agressive. But that countries must be last crying about aggressive politics (especially Poland )



    Soviet Union since 1933 tried to put barriers on Germany, found ways to prevent war. Soviet goverment since Hitler came into power understand risks and German politics
    In december 1933 Soviet Union offered to Poland to sign a joint declaration about inviolability of Baltic states. This declation was rejected by Warsaw with Berlin support.
    In may 1934 France foreign minister Louis Barthou offered treaty of mutual assistance to SU. SU were agreed. So called Eastern Pact must be go after this treaty - multilateral agreement on mutual non-aggression all countries Eastern Europe and the USSR and Germany . Eastern pact again were blocked by Warsaw and Berlin. and Louis Barthou and yugoslavian king Alexsander I were killed by bulgarian (assination planned by Ante Pavelic - again german roots )
    France and SU were sighted this treaty in may 1935. Later to this treaty joined Czechoslovakia. Then happend Spanish Civil war. I think all of you know of SU role in support Spainish republic and German support of Franco .
    In 17 march 1938 Soviet goverment again made another attempt to establish a system of "collective security" - proposing to convene an internationaltion conference to consider "practical measures against aggression and the danger of a new world massacre." Now it was rejected by London. London politics of Berlin's pacification -well-known.
    Neville Chamberlain in letter to king "Germany and England are the two pillars of the European peace and the main pillars against communism" 13 september 1938. It was disaster for Soviet diplomacy. Soviet Union faced with one-by-one with Germany. And remember not only Germany. Local conflict on russian Far East with Japan - battle of Lake Khasan (summer 1938). And nobody knows - will it grown into large war or not?

    However, Soviet diplomats continued to attempt to form the anti-Hitler system of "collective security".April 17, 1939 the Soviet Union proposed to Great Britain and France sign an agreement on mutual assistance and to support the countries of Eastern Europe in the event of aggression against them. And only after the failure of the Anglo-French-Soviet talks in the Kremlin, it was decided to ensure security of the Soviet border in treaty with Germany.

    And if we want to talk who really support Germany, let return again to 1933 year.
    When Germany revocated thier representatives from the Conference on Disarmament, they faced with threat of the use of the League of Nations sanctions against Germany.Warsaw assured Berlin that they will not accepted any sanction against Germany. It was in october 1933.
    In december 1933 Poland proposed to Germany to sign anti-soviet pact. But in that time it was too radical even for Hitler .
    26 january between Poland and Germany were signed a declaration on the peaceful settlement of disputes and non-use of force. As i mentioted above Poland refuse to sign declation about Baltic States with SU in favour of this declation.
    28 september 1938 Poland refused project of Eastern Pact and said t Paris that Warsaw "Now associate their fate with Germany".
    When Germany begun to revision of european borders the same action begun and Poland . In march 1938 Poland organized provocations on demarcation line with Lithuania. Poland send an ultimatum,
    demanding to officially recognize Vilna area as polish territory - the Polish troops occupied it in 1920 and annexed in 1922. Otherwise Poland threatened by war to Lithuania. This actions had full support in Germany. About Cieszyn Silesia and how Poland shaking hand with Germany divinding Czechoslovakia well-known too.

    So Poland must the last coutry crying about Molotov-Ribbentrop pact

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  DTA on Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:21 pm

    Novosti Dnya. Battle for Moscow, November 1941


    Novosti Dnya.News from Leningrad Front
    Tank repairing facility at fronline . Butyakov's brothers artillery crew


    Novosti Dnya. South- Western Front. march 1942 part I


    Novosti Dnya.South- Western Front. march 1942 part II

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:42 am

    Dunno if anyone has posted






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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:48 pm

    The infographic is wrong in one place - the Soviets did suffer disproportionely high number of casualtoes - in most major operations on the eastern front the ratio of German casualties to Soviet casualties was about 1:3 to 1:5 in German favor and only began drifting towards parity in the second half of 1944 when Soviet advantage in manpower/firepower was overwhelming. I would risk saying that out of all major WW2 armies (British, American, German) the Red Army had the worst record when it comes to economy of force (i.e. casualties sustained for achieving objectives)

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Giulio on Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:38 am

    Germans were preparing the war for 8 years before.
    (And lost).

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:48 am

    Russian casualties could have been much lower if they had simply surrendered... but that was not really an option.

    The simple fact is that like most armies of the period the Soviet army had a lot to learn and they started learning from the Finns in 1940, and the Japanese in 1939. Such lessons could not be learned over night of course and some structural changes were never going to happen in peace time.

    For instance the T-26 being the backbone of the tank force and the Polikarpov being the standard fighter were dealt with on the front line with the loss of a lot of men... fortunately a lot of planes were destroyed on the ground which saved the lives of a lot of pilots...


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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:08 pm

    But the high casualty ratio was carried well into 1944 and early 1945 - in spite of overwhelming superiority in tanks, artillery and aircraft. During Bagration Red Army had local superiority of 2.3:1 in men, 7:1 in tanks, 3:1 in artillery and 7:1 in aircraft - and the Soviets suffered 2.5 times higher casualties than the Germans.

    On the western front you have a relatively balanced battle of Hürtgen Forest with 120,000 Americans facing 80,000 entrenched German soldiers, commanded by the best defensive strategist of the Wehrmacht (Walter Model) - and the effect is just slightly higher US casualties (33,000 vs 28,000 German losses)

    And well, by June 1941 Germans deployed only 3,500 tanks in preparation for Barbarossa - the bulk were obsolete Pz. Is, Pz. IIs, ex-Czech Pz. 38(t)s which were easily outclassed by T-26.

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:10 am

    The Americans have always been better at killing people than the Soviets... and the British and French are experts at it too.

    The real difference was that the Germans saw the western allies as equals, whereas they feared the Soviets and saw them as their inferiors... at the end of the day they just fought harder and better against the Soviets.


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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:12 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:But the high casualty ratio was carried well into 1944 and early 1945 - in spite of overwhelming superiority in tanks, artillery and aircraft. During Bagration Red Army had local superiority of 2.3:1 in men, 7:1 in tanks, 3:1 in artillery and 7:1 in aircraft - and the Soviets suffered 2.5 times higher casualties than the Germans.

    The majority of Soviet casualties in Bagration are wounded and sick. They had around 150000 irrecoverable but over 550000 sanitary. Meanwhile Nazi force suffered 100000-150000 captured and similar amount of KIA/MIA.

    If we discount the number of wounded and missed then in Bagration the Soviet suffered less than the Nazi.

    And of course the attacker are more exposed and more vulnerable than the defender. One is sitting inside the house and fire to outside, the other is running into the door and trying to break it without any cover and shelter. From 1943 to 1945 the USSR was on constant offensive against Nazi defense line which had been established long long since the beginning of the war.

    And in the Eastern Front, Nazi put more troops, more weapon, and more elite units than the Western Front.

    And like Garry said, for several reason the Nazi tended to surrender the Western allies rather than surrender the USSR.

    GarryB wrote:The Americans have always been better at killing people than the Soviets... and the British and French are experts at it too.

    The real difference was that the Germans saw the western allies as equals, whereas they feared the Soviets and saw them as their inferiors... at the end of the day they just fought harder and better against the Soviets.

    Some political-historical documents claimed that Nazi and Western allies belong to the same imperialist capitalist class and that is the reason why Nazi were eager to surrender the West rather than the USSR. What do you think, Garry ?

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    Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:37 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:Some political-historical documents claimed that Nazi and Western allies belong to the same imperialist capitalist class and that is the reason why Nazi were eager to surrender the West rather than the USSR. What do you think, Garry ?

    Hardly. The germans were only "eager" to surrender when the war was clearly lost. Only then did anyone who could try to escape from the Red Army and get to the western lines. Absolutely rational decision I might add. Hard to believe the average german soldier would think "I'm the same class as the allies, I will surrender to them".

    And really. If two systems were "the same" it was nazism and communism. Two equally totalitarian and murderous regimes, they had more in common than any had with the western allies.

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