Indian MMRCA competition: News

True the problem with American purchase is that it comes with strings attached and some agreement that needs to be signed that so far India has not done.

Any senator can get up on the wrong side of bed with a bad dream and can come with some conditions that may affects spares , weapons and support.

But the bright side is we do not learn from past experience and have the habit of coming with wrong decision due to narrow political/personal reasons , so them them buy all the American goods they can and then learn to live with strings attached.

MiG-35 knocked out of MRCA

7 Aug 2010, 1910 hrs IST, AGENCIES
After exhaustive trials of six fighter jets, Indian Air Force (IAF) has made its choice clear to the Government on the kind of fighter jets needed. Frontrunners for the force are French fighter Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon built by the European consortium. Bernhard Gerwert, Chief, EADS, says “If you are taking into account the portfolio of EADS we can bring the bridge between civil aviation and military aviation.” But the Americans and Russians have lost out. Boeing’s F18 no longer a frontrunner and Sweden’s Gripen too falling off the Indian radar.

Despite MiG 35s big thunder, its engine failing to impress while the F-16, according to the IAF has no future. Another reason favouring Rafale and Eurofighter is political. Thomas Matussek, German Ambassador, “We regard India as a strategic security partner and this is why we do not insist on an end user monitoring agreement period.” So when the mother of all defence deals is signed for the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft either Rafale or the Eurofighter will fly away with the Rs 42,000 crore deal.

http://www.timesnow.tv/New-fighters-for-Indian-Air-Force/videoshow/4351234.cms

New fighters for Indian Air Force

7 Aug 2010, 1910 hrs IST, AGENCIES
After exhaustive trials of six fighter jets, Indian Air Force (IAF) has made its choice clear to the Government on the kind of fighter jets needed. Frontrunners for the force are French fighter Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon built by the European consortium. Bernhard Gerwert, Chief, EADS, says “If you are taking into account the portfolio of EADS we can bring the bridge between civil aviation and military aviation.” But the Americans and Russians have lost out. Boeing’s F18 no longer a frontrunner and Sweden’s Gripen too falling off the Indian radar.

Despite MiG 35s big thunder, its engine failing to impress while the F-16, according to the IAF has no future. Another reason favouring Rafale and Eurofighter is political. Thomas Matussek, German Ambassador, “We regard India as a strategic security partner and this is why we do not insist on an end user monitoring agreement period.” So when the mother of all defence deals is signed for the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft either Rafale or the Eurofighter will fly away with the Rs 42,000 crore deal.

http://www.timesnow.tv/New-fighters-for-Indian-Air-Force/videoshow/4351234.cms

Its still no official. A while ago word has being out about Gripen being kicked out of tender. It turned out to be untrue. Now this.

MiG-35 stalls in Indian fighter tender contract

RIA Novosti

10:42 10/08/2010 MOSCOW, August 10 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's MiG-35 multirole fighter aircraft has failed to make the short-list in a $10 billion international tender for 126 combat aircraft for the Indian air force, according to Indian media reports quoted by Kommersant daily.

The favorites to win the tender are the French Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon, Indian media say.

Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), the holding company for most of the Russian aircraft industry, and its fighter subsidiary MiG, have not officially confirmed the reports.

"The official results of the tender have not yet been announced," said UAC's Press Secretary Konstantin Lantratov.

"The MiG-35 is not leaving the tender, and I have no official information about this," said UAC First Vice-President Mikhail Pogosyan.

A MiG source quoted by Kommersant said it was too early to say what the Indians had decided.

"The envelopes with the commercial proposals should be studied by the tender commission only this week," the source said.

Several sources quoted by the paper listed a raft of problems around the MiG-35 program, including a lack of financing to support it. One source said the lack of state funding to support the program had been noted by UAC President Aleksei Fyodorov as long ago as the end of 2008, but the issue was not resolved.

The MiG-35 is said to be a cheaper aircraft than its rivals but is said to have problems with engine life.

"Time between overhauls should be at least 2000 hours and overall life 4000 hours, but the RD-33 doesn't meet these parameters now," said one source.

India already operates the early model MiG-29A fighter aircraft and is taking delivery of the MiG-29K naval fighter, which it will operate from a Russian-built aircraft carrier which is currently under refit.

The selection of two favored aircraft for the Indian tender follows a long trials process, which also involved Sweden's SAAB Gripen, America's Lockheed Martin with the F-16, and Boeing's F-18 Super Hornet, as well as the Russian MiG-35.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2010/08/mil-100810-rianovosti01.htm

TBO is less than advertised for RD-33MK... no suprise there. Russian engines are doomed to poor durability issues it appears.

MiG-35 to skip Bangalore airshow


Rahul Singh, PTI
New Delhi, February 01, 2011

The Russian MiG-35, one of the six fighter planes competing with American and European rivals for a $10.2 billion (Rs 45,900 crore) Indian Air Force contract, will not be putting in an appearance at Aero India-2011 in Bangalore next week. Befuddled by the move, the defence ministry is making last-ditch efforts to get the Russians onboard.

RK Singh, secretary (defence production), said on Tuesday, “We don’t know why the MiG-35 is not coming. We want them to participate and have asked our embassy in Moscow to take up the matter.” Russia, however, is among the 45 official delegations expected.

The biennial airshow, to be held from February 9-13, offers international exhibitors a prestigious platform to showcase newest aerospace equipment and technology. More than 675 exhibitors from 60 countries will attend the eighth edition of the airshow, compared to 592 exhibitors from 25 countries in 2009. The exhibitors include 380 Indian firms compared to 303 two years back.

China, Pakistan and Iran have not been invited. Beijing turned down an invite in 2009. Singh said participating countries were short-listed by the ministry of external affairs. Chinese journalists have also been kept out. The US presence will be the biggest with 250 official delegations.

The Russian Aircraft Corporation’s MiG-35 is locked in competition with Boeing (F/A-18 Super Hornet), Lockheed Martin (F-16 Super Viper), Eurofighter Typhoon (a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies), Dassault Aviation (Rafale) and Saab (Gripen) to supply 126 fighter planes to the IAF.

Barring MiG-35, the remaining competitors will be flying at the airshow, organised jointly by the defence ministry and Confederation of Indian Industry.

India and Russia signed a $30 billion (Rs 1,35,000 crore) agreement for the joint design and development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) last December. The two sides are also expected to ink a $4.3 billion (Rs 19,350 crore) deal for 42 more Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
The IAF’s newly acquired C-130J Super Hercules airlifters, capable of takeoffs and landings from unprepared runways, will debut at the airshow. The IAF signed a $1 billion (Rs 4,500 crore) contract with US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin for six C-130J Super Hercules aircraft in 2008.

The odd-one out at the airshow will be a Maruti 800 flying car, developed by a Bangalore-based aviation entusiast. Australia, France, Germany, Italy, Israel, Singapore, Japan and Afghanistan are among the countries sending official delegations. More than 1,75,000 visitors are expected.

This is a concern really.

The fact that the Indians want it there clearly show they are still interested, but the fact that they are not sending any Mig-35s means they are clearly behind and can't spare an airframe for a week or so, which suggests they are working very very hard to get it ready.

There are rumours that the EO system has proved to be a problem and the maker is not able to supply the system to spec. I would guess that one solution would be a fuselage pylon for a Damocles pod or an equivalent perhaps?

The standard load on an 8 pylon wing set up usually means 4 pylons taken up with jamming pods and short range self defence missiles for most missions.

The Mig-29SMT has been shown with a jamming system that looks like a very large pylon which made me think that perhaps they should work on maximising their weapons load by adapting a jamming pod to take the form of a large weapon pylon that can also carry an AAM so you can have 2 jammers and 4 AAMs on 4 pylons leaving the inner pylons for heavy weapons like laser or satellite guided bombs or missiles or ARMs or long range AAMs.

Another issue is that short range AAMs are self defence things that will be used in desperate situations so a couple of BVR missiles would be useful too, so if they are not going to fit EO to the engine nacelles then why not fit conformal R-77 missile positions?

The standard R-77 pylon adapter has a built in catapult to throw the missile down and clear of the aircraft before the rocket motor is started so building in that catapult in the corners of both engine nacelles should allow up to four R-77s with folded rear grid fins be fitted to the engines leaving the 8 wing pylons free for other weapons.

The two centre conformal positions would only be usable with no centreline drop tank of course but with no undercarriage doors down the centreline you could probably put 4 R-77s there in tandem and with the centreline pylon free without a fuel tank there you could get 5 missiles in there with no problems. The catapults would be angled on the conformal positions so that they directed the missile down and clear of the aircraft and so that they wouldn't hit anything mounted on the centre bottom of the nacelle like a targeting pod like Sapsan or Damocles.

Best case scenario this means two R-77s conformally on the outer corner of the engine nacelles and four on the inner corner in tandem which means the centreline pylon can't be used for the fuel tank but could be used for another R-77.

A potential air to air weapon load therefore could be 11 R-77s plus two 2,200 ltr drop tanks on the inner wing pylon and two MSP-418K modified to carry R-73s underneath would mean good range with the fuel tanks, good air to air persistence with 13 AAMs plus 30mm cannon, and good protection with 2 external and internal ESSM suite.

BTW if you think that sounds way out Russian designers had plans for small R-77 sized internal bays all over the top of their aircraft that would open and throw a missile up that would then fire its engine and fly towards the target. The only thing that stopped them actually using such a design was the problems loading the missiles at airfields.

India is planning to increase its defense budget by 11 percent in the next fiscal year, Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee said on Monday.
Presenting the 2011-2012 budget to parliament, the minister set the military budget at just over 1.64 trillion rupees ($36.28 billion), up from last year's 1.47 trillion rupees.

"Needless to say, any additional requirement for the security of the nation will be provided for," Mukherjee said.
More than 40 percent of the Indian defense budget for 2011 will be spent on capital expenditure, while the rest will go toward maintaining one of the world's largest standing armed forces.Local analysts speculate that such a significant increase in defense spending could indicate the government's drive to bolster India's defense capability by the extensive acquisition of modern weaponry.

An ongoing tender to supply 126 light fighter jets to the Indian air force is among the major acquisition projects carried out by the military.
Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $11 billion tender.
India is expected to make its choice in July of this year.

NEW DELHI, February 28 (RIA Novosti)

I thought that India already chose to buy from Eurofighter?

They make their decision in July so anything you hear before then is pure speculation.

IronsightSniper wrote:I thought that India already chose to buy from Eurofighter?

Its being dumped along with MiG-35

RAFALE fits the bill because of commonality between Snecma Kaveri Engine and Indias French experience with mirage-2000 helps more.

adyonfire4 wrote:RAFALE fits the bill because of commonality between Snecma Kaveri Engine and Indias French experience with mirage-2000 helps more.

i think indians will not choose rafale,,it's too expensive and need anew powered engines,,f18 is good..

i wondered,why russians did not offer su35 instead of mig35 ?!!
sukhoi has abetter chance..

The Russians didn't offer the Su-35 because of the M in MRCA... the F-18 is on the very edge of what they want and together with issues with technology transfer and of course being able to use it when they want without some senator or congressperson in the US vetoing spares support if they happen to do something that annoys them, I think the chances of a choice for US aircraft will be pretty slim.
Of course in politics it seems the US method has been to make verbal promises and to then renege on those promises a few administrations later.

Obviously there would be no problem with Indian F-18s blowing up Chinese targets, but they wont be allowed to use them against Pakistan... which might be a problem for India.
F-16s are out of the question because Pakistan operates them.
Rafale and Typhoon are nice aircraft but very expensive. They might buy Typhoon just for Meteor... but what are their chances of getting a decent model AMRAAM?
R-77s on a Typhoon or Rafale would be interesting.
The Mig-35 seems to still be on order for the Russian AF... I suspect the next build Mig-35 we see might have the bigger 10 hardpoint wing perhaps?
Commonality with existing upgraded Mig-29s would be a plus, and it is probably the cheapest aircraft on offer so is probably the only plane they will get the 126 airframes they wanted for the 10 billion.
Models at AeroIndia showing the Mig with Club and 1.5 ton LGBs are interesting too.
Regarding Gripen, on paper it is ideally what they want, but it is not cheap to buy, and as it is pretty much designed to be a net centric fighter they would need to create a net centric environment for it to operate within.
Potential, but a little bit too much like the LCA really.

BTW I know I am biased towards the Mig-35 because I have always liked the Mig-29 and the Mig-35 is everything the Mig-29 should have been.

Original news is now officially confirmed... US, Russia, Sweden are out. Rafale and Eurofighter in...

I'd be surprised if either the Eurofighter or Rafale could be delivered to India for 10 Billion dollars.

Certainly not 126 airframes anyway.

This was clearly a bid by the Indians to buy new technology... I hope they get what they want out of it because neither Rafale nor Typhoon will be cheap... and I suspect the choice will have to be Rafale as it is a more complete aircraft right now, plus the French don't add strings... I suspect with the UK within the Typhoon consortium that they wont be able to make the same promises.

Regarding the Mig-35... it seems to be going to be everything the Mig-29 should have been and I am sure the Russian AF will find it very useful.

Looking at Wiki the prices for Eurofighter and Rafale are 90 mil Euros, and 70 mil Euros respectively.

A quick currency conversion... and that is 11.34 billion Euros and 8.82 billion Euros which is flyaway cost... only the first 16 will be made by the winner and the remaining 110 will be made in India... for rather a lot more.

BTW 11.34 billion Euros currently comes out at about 16.8 billion US dollars, while 8.82 billion Euros comes out at about 13 billion US dollars.

. Russian engines are doomed to poor durability issues it appears.

I disagree.

If the Russian engine is such rubbish why are they already making these engines for themselves to fit to their upgraded Mig-29s and Mig-29Ks?

Will be amusing to see how Europe comes in on time and within budget on this program...

The Indian Ministry of Defense has issued letters, on Wednesday, to two of the six vendors competing in the estimated USD 10 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), asking them to extend the validity of their commercial bids, which will expire on Thursday, tomorrow.
StratPost can confirm that the European Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and the French Dassault’s Rafale have been invited to do so, effectively making up the shortlist.
StratPost can also confirm that according to the IAF and the ministry, the other aircraft in the fray, the US Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet, the US Lockheed Martin Corporation’s F-16, the Russian MiG-35 and the Swedish SAAB’s Gripen did not pass the technical evaluation conducted by the IAF.
It is noteworthy that this comes just a day before the commercial bids of all six vendors were to expire.
It would not be unsurprising if this move by the ministry and it’s coincidentally sharp timing were to raise the hackles of the spurned vendors. Industry insiders are already expecting to see a robust response from these vendors and their countries of origin, at least in private, to this decision.
One question some of the vendors losing out are already asking is why the ministry asked all the vendors to resubmit their offset proposals early this month if they already knew the outcome of the technical evaluation submitted by the IAF last summer, and waited till a day before the expiry of the commercial bids to effectively announce a shortlist by inviting extension of commercial bids from only two vendors.
The commercial bids of the other four vendors will lapse on Thursday, tomorrow.
Something else the uninvited vendors are ready to question is the basis for judging technical compliance, with robust speculation that none of the MMRCA-6 aircraft were actually completely compliant with the IAF’s 643 parameters listed in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) for the tender.

http://www.stratpost.com/india-selects-ef-rafale-for-mmrca-shortlist

Vladimir79 wrote:TBO is less than advertised for RD-33MK... no suprise there. Russian engines are doomed to poor durability issues it appears.

But plz don't stop the delivering of RD-33 engines for our JF-17 project.

Mig clearly save a bit of money not bothering to go to AirIndia 2011 with a real plane.

GarryB wrote:I'd be surprised if either the Eurofighter or Rafale could be delivered to India for 10 Billion dollars.

Certainly not 126 airframes anyway.

This was clearly a bid by the Indians to buy new technology... I hope they get what they want out of it because neither Rafale nor Typhoon will be cheap... and I suspect the choice will have to be Rafale as it is a more complete aircraft right now, plus the French don't add strings...

No strings? They are holding them hostage with the M2000 upgrade. They sign on Rafale and they get the price they want.

Regarding the Mig-35... it seems to be going to be everything the Mig-29 should have been and I am sure the Russian AF will find it very useful.

The state was banking on MiG-35 winning MMRCA, I have doubts if its development will even continue based on their current lack of investment.

Looking at Wiki the prices for Eurofighter and Rafale are 90 mil Euros, and 70 mil Euros respectively.

According to the last NAO report, Typhoons cost £122 million. Rafale costs about E70 so it is far cheaper.

A quick currency conversion... and that is 11.34 billion Euros and 8.82 billion Euros which is flyaway cost... only the first 16 will be made by the winner and the remaining 110 will be made in India... for rather a lot more.

I think it is 18 fly away and the contract price is not set. Rafale is the only one that gets into the price range.

I disagree.

If the Russian engine is such rubbish why are they already making these engines for themselves to fit to their upgraded Mig-29s and Mig-29Ks?

Because there is nothing else to put into them except the old RD-33s which are worse than MKs.

Will be amusing to see how Europe comes in on time and within budget on this program...

Both production lines have plenty of spare capacity. Delivery won't be a problem.

Obviously there would be no problem with Indian F-18s blowing up Chinese targets, but they wont be allowed to use them against Pakistan... which might be a problem for India.

We also get F-16 Bl/52Ds...& will be getting further upgraded models...all with the stamps: NOT TO USE AGAINST INDIA

but really who cares

We also get F-16 Bl/52Ds...& will be getting further upgraded models...all with the stamps: NOT TO USE AGAINST INDIA

but really who cares

I am sure the story will be that PAK airforce F-16s were innocently flying near a target in Pakistan that India happened to be attacking and an Indian aircraft attacked the F-16s which had to defend themselves... what choice did they have?

I mean the west was perfectly happy to believe Suck Arse Milli Vanili that the Russians invaded Georgia in 2008...

No strings? They are holding them hostage with the M2000 upgrade. They sign on Rafale and they get the price they want.

I meant in terms of operational usage... ie you can use them against China, but not Pakistan.
This is more a "limited time offer"... ie buy now and get a free set of steak knives... plus order by credit card and you get a lower price on your M2K upgrade...

The state was banking on MiG-35 winning MMRCA, I have doubts if its
development will even continue based on their current lack of
investment.

Well if that is the case they should start investing in a single engine light 5th gen fighter if they get a clear message from the government that they don't want Mig-35s.

There is going to be a gap where the T-50 is too expensive to produce in large enough numbers to fill all Russian fighter squadrons... the Mig-35 might get replaced with more Mig-29SMTs... which will be cheaper of course but for the longer term having Mig-35s in service will be a good stepping stone to something like a cheaper lighter 5th gen light fighter to compete with the F-35 in exports.

With the PVO transfering to the air and space defence forces they might have more money spent on Mig-31 upgrades and perhaps even a Mig-31 replacement, but I suspect that a light 5th gen fighter program and a UCAV program like "Skat" (Have read it is not dead, but is an ongoing program... this often seems to mean no government funding but the design bureau is using its own funds to support in the hope the government will change its mind or get foreign customers for it... have you heard anything about it Vlad?) should be the main focus of the company if the Mig-35 is not wanted by the Russian AF.

According to the last NAO report, Typhoons cost £122 million. Rafale costs about E70 so it is far cheaper.

That is three Rafales for the price of two Typhoons with 30 odd million for weapons and spare parts... And lets face it... the Rafale is a more complete plane... can the Typhoons hit ground targets yet?

Because there is nothing else to put into them except the old RD-33s which are worse than MKs.

Ahhh, come on... the reports I have been reading the guy making the announcement uses words like diversity which makes me suspect that even if the Mig-35s were offered for free they wouldn't have won. They didn't want another Russian plane, they wanted a non Russian one... this was a fight between America and France and it seems France has won.
...or do they want Meteor?

Both production lines have plenty of spare capacity. Delivery won't be a problem.

A program this big with no problems? Surely you jest?

France should have no problems building two Mistral class ships too but after it has been selected they are still talking... when Rafale is selected the discussions will start in earnest about the details of the actual contract etc etc.