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    Indian MMRCA competition: News

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    Kyo

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Kyo on Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:20 pm

    Nice. attack

    Indian Defense Minister says that negotiations with France are experiencing "difficulties" and that they are considering the purchase of additional MKIs in case of failure with the Rafale.


    MOSCOW, January 2 - RIA Novosti. India is considering the purchase of additional Su-30 MKI in case of failure of the transaction on the French fighter "Rafale", according to sources in the Ministry of National Defense.

    In January 2012, "Rafale" was declared the winner of the largest in the history of India, an international tender for the supply of arms. The contract for the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force is estimated at more than $ 10 billion.

    Defense Minister said earlier that negotiations with the French side, lasting more than three years, experiencing "difficulties" as the French manufacturers refuse to comply with the conditions imposed by the Indian Air Force in the tender, said the publication Defense Update. According to him, the production of the Su-30MKI in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be an adequate substitute "Rafale".
    Earlier media reported that the French do not give permission for the production of "Rafale" by HAL.

    The creation of each of the Su-30 in India costs about $ 56 million, more than half the cost of a fighter "Rafale"
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:44 am

    Am I the only one smelling "rat"?

    Modi: No Rafale contract until Mistral is delivered.

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    Zivo

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Zivo on Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:38 am

    Kyo wrote:Nice. attack

    Indian Defense Minister says that negotiations with France are experiencing "difficulties" and that they are considering the purchase of additional MKIs in case of failure with the Rafale.


    MOSCOW, January 2 - RIA Novosti. India is considering the purchase of additional Su-30 MKI in case of failure of the transaction on the French fighter "Rafale", according to sources in the Ministry of National Defense.

    In January 2012, "Rafale" was declared the winner of the largest in the history of India, an international tender for the supply of arms. The contract for the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force is estimated at more than $ 10 billion.

    Defense Minister said earlier that negotiations with the French side, lasting more than three years, experiencing "difficulties" as the French manufacturers refuse to comply with the conditions imposed by the Indian Air Force in the tender, said the publication Defense Update. According to him, the production of the Su-30MKI in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be an adequate substitute "Rafale".
    Earlier media reported that the French do not give permission for the production of "Rafale" by HAL.

    The creation of each of the Su-30 in India costs about $ 56 million, more than half the cost of a fighter "Rafale"

    Laughing

    Oh, that's rich.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:27 am

    If it turns into a $22 billion dollar contract for 126 planes like some suggest that means about 174 million per Rafale... so you get 3 Su-30s for the price of one Rafale.

    That means either saving 2/3rds of your money or getting three times more aircraft for the same price.

    The real question is... is this a real consideration, or are they just trying to play hardball and negotiate better terms for the contract... could be both and bluffs work best when they are not bluffing.


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    medo

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  medo on Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:42 am

    Rafale is overpriced plane and it doesn't bring any additional capability comparing to Su-30MKI. Both have PESA radar, but Bars-M is far more powerful and have better range. Both have IRST and capable ECM equipment. Both use Democles targeting pod and both carry all kinds of bombs and missiles. Su-30MKI have TVC engines, which Rafale doesn't have.

    More interesting is a price. Su-30MKI is around 100 million $ cheaper than Rafale. Even if Rafale have lower operational costs per hour, those 100 millions $ will pay all operational costs and maintenances for whole service life.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:54 am

    So France looses the Mistral contract, and now might lose the Rafael one too.

    I wonder how this will all play out in the French political arena? Le Pen will no doubt accuse Hollande and the rest of the Atlanticists of being the bought-out, foreign-power serving invertebrates that they are; and she will gain a lot of support not only from conservatives pissed-off at France's lack of spine in standing up for its interests, but of those discontent in France against the ruling neo-liberal governments in general, Islamophobes, Catholics, Eurosceptics.. anyone with a bone to pick against their own government or America/EU.

    We can already see the growing nightly protests in the former East Germany; which bear more than a few parallels to the growing nightly protests in the then still-existing East Germany 26 years ago. Here, as then, they had been organized and led by radical political forces but have now grown to include mostly just ordinary people; and discontent with the government's policy on immigration and Islam may have been the spark but in actuality it's only one of the many reasons for the discontent and growing protest.
    Merkel herself of course, has been made to look like a powerless non-entity since the start of the crisis in the Ukraine; all her plans with Klitchko, etc.. were rudely butted aside, and now the US is leading Germany and other Europeans states by the nose towards conflict with Russia - that most Germans want no part of.

    The West wants Putin out, for Russians to rise up on the streets. Or at the very least, to put pressure on Russia and make sure that it doesn't think about causing trouble for the West ever again.
    As such Russia is being 'isolated', its economy is being 'strangled'. Or so they claim.
    But what I see is that the EU, and the Atlantisicist hold in Europe is actually far more fragile.
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    medo

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  medo on Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:08 pm

    I think loosing Rafale deal with India will also finish Desault as fighter producer with no orders and no new plane in development.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:15 pm

    Gotta love how India's breaking France's balls on this one.

    And the timing is great too. I don't know if it really is related to the Mistral or not, but by hinting at it, it creates the perception that there is some tie; and that can only be beneficial for Russia.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:21 pm

    Let us wait and see. This military negotiations are always in a cloud of dust.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:05 am

    Actually it could all be a conspiracy by the US to break the relationship between India and France....


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    mack8

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  mack8 on Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:42 pm

    The worse possible would be if they cancel the Rafale deal and obscure fifth columnists steer them towards buying something american... if that happens, it will be a sign that Mahatma Gandhi and indian people's dream of an independent India is dead, they would be back to being just a colony again, this time of US. But yeah, this whole Rafale deal mess should have long been cancelled by now, first logical choice is more Su-30MKI and more Tejas, or if if they really want a medium fighter just get the MiG-35 already, MiG would kiss both their hands for the deal of the century for them, would have been more friendly and flexible to indian requests (indian/foreign AESA and electronics, indian weapons, ToT etc.,) and no matter what, much cheaper (MiG would have stayed much closer to the initial MMRCA budget surely). Rafale has almost nothing over a well equipped MiG-35, the MiG will have significant logistical benefits (almost identical to MiG-29K/KUB and a good degree of commonality with UPG), and considering the political factor that the indians were factoring in, it's clear now that unfortunately France as an independent and reliable international partner is finished, might as well treat it like US!
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    Kyo

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Kyo on Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:42 pm

    "it's clear now that unfortunately France as an independent and reliable international partner is finished, might as well treat it like US!"

    Next in line should be Brazil and its deal with the nuclear submarines. Poor Hollande, don't you feel sorry for him?
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:59 am

    mack8 wrote:it's clear now that unfortunately France as an independent and reliable international partner is finished, might as well treat it like US!  

    QFT. Just another 'Atlanticist' lackey like Britain.

    The fact that Sarkozy and Hollande have signed on board on all the US's adventures over the last 5 years though, should have been a give-away though.
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    TR1

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:40 am

    France if anything pushed the US to follow its adventures in a few cases.

    Just because a nation isn't sucking Putin's wang left and right does not mean they are doing the opposite to Washington.

    Hollande is walking a tightrope with Mistrals. Delaying delivery is the least painful option from every perspective for him.
    I am quite sure the French would like for the political situation in Ukraine to stabilize in an internationally acceptable way (or at least acceptable enough to the EU) so they can send the Mistrals on their way and avoid any further mess.

    Russia's reaction should tell you a lot. They (military) basically said "we will wait for the decision". They know screaming about lawsuits and business norms is not smart right now, and those ships are not critically needed this second in any case.

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    Werewolf

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:10 am

    TR1 wrote:France if anything pushed the US to follow its adventures in a few cases.

    Just because a nation isn't sucking Putin's wang left and right does not mean they are doing the opposite to Washington.

    Hollande is walking a tightrope with Mistrals. Delaying delivery is the least painful option from every perspective for him.
    I am quite sure the French would like for the political situation in Ukraine to stabilize in an internationally acceptable way (or at least acceptable enough to the EU) so they can send the Mistrals on their way and avoid any further mess.

    Russia's reaction should tell you a lot. They (military) basically said "we will wait for the decision". They know screaming about lawsuits and business norms is not smart right now, and those ships are not critically needed this second in any case.


    No, France did not coincidental follow a similiar policy like the US. The US activaley threatent France to put sanctions on Russia and not to deliver mistral. BNP Paribas bank was sanctioned for corruption if France would deliver Mistral.

    That is how your beloved USA does.

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/07/08/bnpu-j08.html

    EU is a bitch that does what US tells its bitch to do, that is a fact and not some conspiracy theory or a coincidence when France does what US wants.


    Joe Biden:

    "It is true, they did not want to do that, but again it was America's leadership and the President of USofA, insisting... often times almost having to embarrass Europe to "stand up" and taking economic hits to impose cause."


    Sounds like coincidental politics France and US happen to make out of their own.....NOT.

    The US is a dictatorship and it always was that.
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    TR1

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:55 am

    Oh wow, a US politician trying to take credit to make his administration look effective and pro-active! Unheard of!

    Clearly, EU is only pushing sanctions because America wants it. France especially. They are known for their America-tailing.

    Hollande can't carry on as if business is as usual. The EU is not happy a nearby state is having its borders blatantly violated. Deny it all you want, their actions speak for themselves.

    LOL @ that commie rag you linked.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:06 am

    TR1 wrote:Oh wow, a US politician trying to take credit to make his administration look effective and pro-active! Unheard of!

    Clearly, EU is only pushing sanctions because America wants it. France especially. They are known for their America-tailing.

    Hollande can't carry on as if business is as usual. The EU is not happy a nearby state is having its borders blatantly violated. Deny it all you want, their actions speak for themselves.

    LOL @ that commie rag you linked.

    One stupid post after another, plain out simple response from fucking americunt politician that they openly dictate politics in EU and you call it all just "talk".

    You are the true conspiracy theorist here, denying open facts, idiots like you should refrain of commenting on politics you are to indoctrinated to see how it is, you just see how you want it to see and hear.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:43 am

    Hollande can't carry on as if business is as usual. The EU is not happy a nearby state is having its borders blatantly violated. Deny it all you want, their actions speak for themselves.

    WTF are you on TR-1?

    The EU + the US contains 90% of the biggest line fuckers around... they drew all the fucking lines to suit their interests.

    There are some clues in the Middle East... where is Palestine... where is Kurdistan? there could have been a dozen different countries created there but the lines that eventually were drawn had nothing to do with social or political or economic boundaries... the lines divided the known oil resources of the region that were drawn up just after WWI when Germany lost all its colonies and the UK and France were redividing their known oil reserves between themselves. All the royal families of the Middle East can trace their royal bloodlines to the early 1920s when white people from Europe told them they were royal. Rolling Eyes

    If the EU has the tiniest bit of evidence that Russia is interfering in the Ukraine then show it... otherwise STFU... and if images of an individual tank or APC is evidence then there is plenty of evidence of western interference too so stop being such a fucking hypocrite.


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    flamming_python

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:35 pm

    TR1 wrote:Oh wow, a US politician trying to take credit to make his administration look effective and pro-active! Unheard of!

    Clearly, EU is only pushing sanctions because America wants it. France especially. They are known for their America-tailing.

    Hollande can't carry on as if business is as usual. The EU is not happy a nearby state is having its borders blatantly violated. Deny it all you want, their actions speak for themselves.

    LOL @ that commie rag you linked.

    The EU should look in a mirror before it starts accusing other states of violating borders.

    I can pretty much guarantee you that if not for Iraq, Kosovo, Libya, Syria, etc... and of course the Ukraine itself where the EU played a big part in - the Crimea would never have been taken. Russia wouldn't have had the gall, to look like an actual criminal in front of an 'international order' that is actually international, and that does actually represent some order & stability.

    As it does though that term pretty much just represents the West doing what it wants while classifying lawbreakers more minor than them as 'rogue states'; while Russia in this instance, far from looking like a criminal, looks like the person who told the King that he has no clothes on.

    France supports this repugnant state of affairs that has been going on for too long, it has grown too comfortable in its cosy position as a key member of the rich boys club who smash their Lamborghinis against other people's lawns and other people even, and get away with it because daddy is in a position of power.
    And it's time to change that - and vanquish the West's above-the-law status altogether. Nobody should be above international law. And I'd be the first to hold Russia to account for the Crimea - as soon as someone holds America, France, Britain, etc... to account for all the BS they pulled over the last 20 years.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:40 pm

    Werewolf, there is no point feeding the troll. Just isolate him and he will go away.
    LA has wonderful weather, nice beaches and many black bulls if nobody answers to him he 'll take his pinky X3 out.
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    Kyo

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Kyo on Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:17 pm

    Indian Defense Ministry source now says Su-30 to replace Rafales if deal falls through.

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20150112/1016804417.html
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    Kyo

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Kyo on Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:33 pm

    India to decide on purchase of French Rafale fighters by April. The price of the jets has already risen from the initial $10 billion to over $20 billion, according to the Times of India.

    http://itar-tass.com/en/world/770693
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:52 pm

    3 Su-30MKI's that you can buy with the cost of 1 Rafale. The Bars-M radar of the Su-30MKI is one of the best PESA radars available (next to Irbis-e) and Su-30MKI has greater ferry range. So I really do not see the whole point of the Rafale. I understand it is supposed to replace MiG-21's and Mirage 2000's, but it really is pointless. Just buy more Su-30MKI's to replace the others, will make it much cheaper in long run to maintain the airforce.
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    George1

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:39 pm

    India Scraps Rafale Fighter Deal With France, Eyes Russian Alternative

    India has scrapped a deal with France to buy 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), after three years of negotiations, due to the high cost of the project.

    India Eyes Cheaper, Reliable Russian Su-30 Jets as Rafale Deal With France Stalls
    India has announced that a deal to buy 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) from French manufacturer Dassault Aviation is “effectively dead”.

    The reason is the announced high cost of the overall project, according to the country’s online newspaper Business Standard.

    The global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) was the first time the Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) had awarded a contract based on life cycle costing (LCC). This meant the winner of the tender would not be the fighter with the cheapest purchase price; instead the chosen fighter would be the one that was the cheapest to buy, fly, maintain and overhaul over its 30-40 year service life.

    As per the original tender, eighteen of the 126 planes were supposed to be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was due to manufacture the other 108 under license at a to-be-built facility in the city of Bangalore.

    Dassault Aviation has refused to take full responsibility for these 108 fighters to be manufactured in India, which automatically increased the overall cost of the whole project.

    Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has recently said that Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters, which had been built by Hindustan Aeronautics at its Nashik plant, could be substituted for them, according to the website IndiaSpend.

    The Sukhoi-30 MKI is currently India’s most advanced fighter and forms the backbone of its air force. It’s also half the current cost of a Rafale.

    The Indian Air Force first signed a deal with the Russian government to purchase eight air defense Su-30K and 32 multi-role Su-30 MK aircraft in 1996. IAF bought an additional 10 Su-30 MKs in December 1998.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20150216/1018326220.html#ixzz3RuXndTaD
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Kimppis on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:52 pm

    George1 wrote:India Scraps Rafale Fighter Deal With France, Eyes Russian Alternative

    India has scrapped a deal with France to buy 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), after three years of negotiations, due to the high cost of the project.

    India Eyes Cheaper, Reliable Russian Su-30 Jets as Rafale Deal With France Stalls
    India has announced that a deal to buy 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) from French manufacturer Dassault Aviation is “effectively dead”.

    The reason is the announced high cost of the overall project, according to the country’s online newspaper Business Standard.

    The global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) was the first time the Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) had awarded a contract based on life cycle costing (LCC). This meant the winner of the tender would not be the fighter with the cheapest purchase price; instead the chosen fighter would be the one that was the cheapest to buy, fly, maintain and overhaul over its 30-40 year service life.

    As per the original tender, eighteen of the 126 planes were supposed to be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was due to manufacture the other 108 under license at a to-be-built facility in the city of Bangalore.

    Dassault Aviation has refused to take full responsibility for these 108 fighters to be manufactured in India, which automatically increased the overall cost of the whole project.

    Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has recently said that Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters, which had been built by Hindustan Aeronautics at its Nashik plant, could be substituted for them, according to the website IndiaSpend.

    The Sukhoi-30 MKI is currently India’s most advanced fighter and forms the backbone of its air force. It’s also half the current cost of a Rafale.

    The Indian Air Force first signed a deal with the Russian government to purchase eight air defense Su-30K and 32 multi-role Su-30 MK aircraft in 1996. IAF bought an additional 10 Su-30 MKs in December 1998.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20150216/1018326220.html#ixzz3RuXndTaD

    OMFG... It really happened!?!?

    Btw, why don't they buy Su-35s? They are still cheaper than Rafales if I'm not mistaken.

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