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    Indian MMRCA competition: News

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    medo

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  medo on Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:02 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    medo wrote:I'm all for India to buy 126 ex-German AF Eurofighters. This will be big and important disarmament of NATO in Europe.
    Unfortunately only 16 will be ex-German, but your point still stands.

    lol!

    Maybe Austria will sell their 15 Eurofighters as they don't have money to operate them.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:38 pm

    medo wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    medo wrote:I'm all for India to buy 126 ex-German AF Eurofighters. This will be big and important disarmament of NATO in Europe.
    Unfortunately only 16 will be ex-German, but your point still stands.

    lol!

    Maybe Austria will sell their 15 Eurofighters as they don't have money to operate them.
    Germany is the one proposing the deal, but who knows!
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:39 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

    And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

    That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:45 pm

    sepheronx wrote:So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?

    God India, just choose already.
    Yep, unfortunately...

    Yeah India, hurry up and buy some MiGs!

    ricky123

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:22 pm

    sepheronx wrote:So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?

    God India, just choose already.

    the thing is they say Germany is giving some 50% discount . which makes the offer very tempting

    according to EFT consortium every country is supposed to order certain number of fighters .if they dont they will have to pay a fine .

    all of the countries involved in EFT have cut down on the orders .but if they get the indian order they can save the money . hence the discount .

    does any1 else has any related news ?
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:43 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

    And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

    That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

    Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

    1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

    2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:39 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

    And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

    That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

    Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

    1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

    2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!

    I'm 100% with you on both points, even more so on the second one... MiGs are excellent platforms for upgrading, and India already has not only the planes in their inventory, but the knowledge for good maintenance as well.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:18 pm

    ricky123 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?

    God India, just choose already.

    the thing is they say Germany is giving some 50% discount . which makes the offer very tempting

    according to EFT consortium every country is supposed to order certain number of fighters .if they dont they will have to pay a fine .

    all of the countries involved in EFT have cut down on the orders .but if they get the indian order they can save the money . hence the discount .

    does any1 else has any related news ?

    16 will be "used", so that helps lower the cost. Also, as these units will be downgraded (export models), the price better be cheaper!

    That is unusual, but I assume that Germany already ordered all of the required planes.

    I've seen news on the subject, but nothing new...
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    Viktor

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Viktor on Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:55 pm

    Considering Paris upped offer by 10 or 20 bin Euros Im not surprised India is looking for something else. Perhaps now should be the perfect time to again offer 10bin $ MiG-35 deal to India

    considering India currency droped and they are not swimimng in money. They need to optimize and perhaps MiG-35 still has some chances. Funny thing however is that French

    still dont have the deal in their hands after so many years.

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:50 pm

    Viktor wrote:Considering Paris upped offer by 10 or 20 bin Euros Im not surprised India is looking for something else. Perhaps now should be the perfect time to again offer 10bin $ MiG-35 deal to India

    considering India currency droped and they are not swimimng in money. They need to optimize and perhaps MiG-35 still has some chances. Funny thing however is that French

    still dont have the deal in their hands after so many years.
    WELL it is the french fault

    first they dint want hal as a partner cuz they already had some deals with reliance .then they made some issues with TOT and then with the price again
    plus refusing to deliver the ships to russia has also put thier credibilty at risk as a reliable supplier

    India was ready to sign this deal but last ditch effort from germany has complicated things . if germany really gives a discount of 3-4 billion dollars , india cannot say no ..cuz if u look EFT and rafael both had been selected ,only on the life cycle cost rafael got the upperhand as been cheaper and got L1 status , but if germany can offer a better Deal .then EFT which also had cleared all the IAF trails can also be preffered ...

    ricky123

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:51 pm



    Mig was not rdy at that time .. and i am not sure what mig can offer which rafael or EFT cannot ..so i really dont think MIG35 has any chance in this ..
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    Viktor

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Viktor on Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:36 pm

    If the price thing is what counts again than we are back to MiG-35 again and its a winner. With full ToT and all.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:12 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

    And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

    That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

    Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

    1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

    2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!

    LOL, was down voted for this post, I don't know why because it's pretty much true.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:58 am

    Hmm, probably RTN or a different troll...

    The news about the Vladivostok is pretty big... It seems like Russia will receive the ships, and at a lowered cost!
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:00 am

    Viktor wrote:If the price thing is what counts again than we are back to MiG-35 again and its a winner. With full ToT and all.
    Cost plus the fact that India already has MiGs, and is familiar with them.
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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:15 am

    Mike E wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

    And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

    That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

    Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

    1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

    2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!

    I'm 100% with you on both points, even more so on the second one... MiGs are excellent platforms for upgrading, and India already has not only the planes in their inventory, but the knowledge for good maintenance as well.

    I was told that the MiG-35 performed poor during the competition, because at that time the project had not been 100% completed yet. At that time MiG-35 had quite a number of errors but Mikoyan was not upset about that, therefore some people suspected that MiG-35 is just a screen to cover the top secret, non-commercial projects of Mikoyan, for example the supersonic MiG-41.

    I suspect that for Russia, Sukhoi is appointed to be the main exporter and handles the business enterprise, meanwhile Mikoyan is appointed to handle the top secret projects which Russia will not export to anyone. Although on the cover Sukhoi and Mikoyan are competing against each other.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:11 pm

    Lowered cost is because of the delays and is part of the contract...


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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:23 pm

    Common sense would say MiG-35... with an AESA radar and RVV-BD 300km range AAMs, not to mention the ability to carry 1.5 ton loads on its inner pylons.

    Add to that simplification of the air fleet with the MiG-35 having commonality with the upgraded MiG-29s and MiG-29Ks of the Navy, and its ability to replace the Mirage 2000, the Jaguar, the MiG-23, and old model MiG-29s in service.

    However this was all about keeping the pro west faction happy and they don't want another Russian plane... they wanted a Mirage 2000 or to produce M2K locally, but France insisted on Rafale and a ridiculous price... the MRCA was to evaluate Indias options and perhaps get France to reduce the price, which they clearly have not... 126 aircraft for $22 billion works out to $175 million per aircraft... a medium fourth gen fighter that likely will be more expensive than the heavy Fifth gen fighter they introduce...


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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:Common sense would say MiG-35... with an AESA radar and RVV-BD 300km range AAMs, not to mention the ability to carry 1.5 ton loads on its inner pylons.

    Add to that simplification of the air fleet with the MiG-35 having commonality with the upgraded MiG-29s and MiG-29Ks of the Navy, and its ability to replace the Mirage 2000, the Jaguar, the MiG-23, and old model MiG-29s in service.

    However this was all about keeping the pro west faction happy and they don't want another Russian plane... they wanted a Mirage 2000 or to produce M2K locally, but France insisted on Rafale and a ridiculous price... the MRCA was to evaluate Indias options and perhaps get France to reduce the price, which they clearly have not... 126 aircraft for $22 billion works out to $175 million per aircraft... a medium fourth gen fighter that likely will be more expensive than the heavy Fifth gen fighter they introduce...

    Leave it to bureaucrats to ruin EVERYTHING, sounds like India has a few "Serdyukov's" of their very own! BTW shockingly enough GarryB, you weren't down-voted for coming to the same conclusions as me... lol1
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:04 pm

    That was very early in its development... With its R&D finished and problems worked out, it would be a great entry into the Indian competition.
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    Mike E

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    Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson. Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message...

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:Lowered cost is because of the delays and is part of the contract...
    +
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Common sense would say MiG-35... with an AESA radar and RVV-BD 300km range AAMs, not to mention the ability to carry 1.5 ton loads on its inner pylons.

    Add to that simplification of the air fleet with the MiG-35 having commonality with the upgraded MiG-29s and MiG-29Ks of the Navy, and its ability to replace the Mirage 2000, the Jaguar, the MiG-23, and old model MiG-29s in service.

    However this was all about keeping the pro west faction happy and they don't want another Russian plane... they wanted a Mirage 2000 or to produce M2K locally, but France insisted on Rafale and a ridiculous price... the MRCA was to evaluate Indias options and perhaps get France to reduce the price, which they clearly have not... 126 aircraft for $22 billion works out to $175 million per aircraft... a medium fourth gen fighter that likely will be more expensive than the heavy Fifth gen fighter they introduce...
    It does look good for the Indian Air Force, more so when you consider the low cost and as you later mentioned, the commonality.

    Holy crap! $175 million dollars! That is approaching F-22 levels for crying out loud!
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    medo

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  medo on Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:53 pm

    India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.

    Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:12 pm

    medo wrote:India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.

    Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.
    Hmm, that would be great for both India and Russia... The "Mark 2" uses US made engines, but the "Mark 3" will not (it will use their indigenous engine). So either way they won't be using many foreign engines.

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  ricky123 on Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:40 am

    Mike E wrote:
    medo wrote:India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.

    Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.
    Hmm, that would be great for both India and Russia... The "Mark 2" uses US made engines, but the "Mark 3" will not (it will use their indigenous engine). So either way they won't be using many foreign engines.

    only tejas Mk1 is using US engines . MK2 is still in the design phase . so nothing concrete happening there .

    PLus i dont think India will go for the migs as india wanted to buy something else rather then the same upgraded Mig29 .

    now the subsdised verison of EFT will be very cheap almost %50 of the acutall cost ,in the news they said it would cost around $9 bil for 126 .but we dont really now how much of that is true .. plus another factor is time ... EFT had gone thru all the trials and passed just like Rafael .. Mig35 hasnt and india will be running out of fighters in 2018-2022 period . so i dont think india will go for the migs cuz it will again take few more years to conduct the trials and negotiate the price ..

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