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    Indian Su-30MKI: News

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    Russian Patriot
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    Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:48 am

    India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia

    RIA Novosti

    01:43 10/10/2009 NEW DELHI, October 9 (RIA Novosti) - India will discuss the modernization of the Russian-made Su-30MKI aircraft in service with its air force during an upcoming military-technical cooperation meeting in Moscow, the country's Defense Ministry said on Friday.

    The Indian Air Force currently has 105 Su-30MKIs mainly deployed at airbases close to the Chinese border.

    "The aircraft, contracted in 1996, are due for overhaul shortly and Russia has offered an upgrade of the aircraft with incorporation of the latest technologies during the major overhaul," the ministry said in a statement.

    The IAF originally ordered 50 Su-30MKI aircraft from Russia in 1996 and an additional 40 planes in 2007. India's Hindustani Aeronautics (HAL) was also contracted to build 140 aircraft in India between 2003 and 2017 under a licensed production agreement.

    India previously said it was satisfied with the performance of Russian Su-30MKI fighters and has recently expressed interest in buying another 50 Su-30MKIs.

    The 9th meeting of the Russia-India Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation will be held on October 14-15 in Moscow and will be chaired by Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and his Indian counterpart A. K. Antony.

    The main focus of discussions during the meeting will be the extension of the existing bilateral agreement on military-technical cooperation for another 10 years, from 2011 to 2020.

    Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow.

    The current cooperation program until 2010 comprises about 200 joint projects, including the modernization of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier (formerly the Admiral Gorshkov) for the Indian navy, the transfer of technology for the licensed assembly of T-90 tanks in India, the production of BrahMos missiles and the purchase of Smerch MLRS by India.


    India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia
    RIA Novosti

    01:43 10/10/2009 NEW DELHI, October 9 (RIA Novosti) - India will discuss the modernization of the Russian-made Su-30MKI aircraft in service with its air force during an upcoming military-technical cooperation meeting in Moscow, the country's Defense Ministry said on Friday.

    The Indian Air Force currently has 105 Su-30MKIs mainly deployed at airbases close to the Chinese border.

    "The aircraft, contracted in 1996, are due for overhaul shortly and Russia has offered an upgrade of the aircraft with incorporation of the latest technologies during the major overhaul," the ministry said in a statement.

    The IAF originally ordered 50 Su-30MKI aircraft from Russia in 1996 and an additional 40 planes in 2007. India's Hindustani Aeronautics (HAL) was also contracted to build 140 aircraft in India between 2003 and 2017 under a licensed production agreement.

    India previously said it was satisfied with the performance of Russian Su-30MKI fighters and has recently expressed interest in buying another 50 Su-30MKIs.

    The 9th meeting of the Russia-India Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation will be held on October 14-15 in Moscow and will be chaired by Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and his Indian counterpart A. K. Antony.

    The main focus of discussions during the meeting will be the extension of the existing bilateral agreement on military-technical cooperation for another 10 years, from 2011 to 2020.

    Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow.

    The current cooperation program until 2010 comprises about 200 joint projects, including the modernization of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier (formerly the Admiral Gorshkov) for the Indian navy, the transfer of technology for the licensed assembly of T-90 tanks in India, the production of BrahMos missiles and the purchase of Smerch MLRS by India.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2009/10/mil-091010-rianovosti02.htm

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    Indian Su-30MKI

    Post  Corrosion on Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:45 am

    This is important milestone IMO. First (assembled from Russian kits) MKI was delivered by HAL in 2004 and First built from raw materials and components sourced indigenously is delivered in 2011.

    Desi Sukhoi does supersonic ballet on debut

    The made-in-India Sukhoi (Su-30MKI) is up and flying.
    this was the first aircraft manufactured from a complete raw material phase. The striking feature was the pilots pulling 9g at the first attempt itself, a pointer to its structural integrity.
    The Aircraft Manufacturing Division of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Nashik, produced this metal bird with close to 28,000 parts and using 1,20,000 tools.
    “This flight was undertaken with full confidence in the technical prowess and expertise of HAL. It went smoothly as planned and the aircraft handled beautifully,” the pilots were quoted by sources after touch-down.
    HAL has so far delivered 99 Sukhois to the IAF, out of a total order of 180, produced under licence from Russia at an approximate cost of Rs 250-300 crore each
    Cost comes out to be $50-60 million each.
    The raw material phase Sukhoi is the first from Phase-IV of the project. The avionics and accessories have come from HAL’s Lucknow, Hyderabad and Korwa divisions, while the engine was produced at Koraput.
    “HAL will have to complete the deliveries by 2014-15, but we expect a delay of three years,” IAF sources said. Express has learnt that the delay in the design and development phase of Sukhoi in Russia impacted the receipt of technology and tooling in India. HAL too had issues in absorbing new technologies.
    Source:blue]Expressbuzz] http://expressbuzz.com/nation/desi-sukhoi-does-supersonic-ballet-on-debut/328968.html[/url]

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Corrosion on Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:59 am

    Few points regarding Indian MKI program:

    > HAL built/assembled about 99 in some 7 years i.e. @14 per year.
    > HAL is going to make 182 and Irkut is going to make 90 in the end. - my guess based on various news/facts
    > Current inventory should be = 50 + 99 + z . "z" is the number that Irkut has already delivered from order of 40 and these will have serial no. 301 to 340(my guess). First ones made in Russia have series SB 0xx.
    > Current inventory would be around atleast 170. - my guess based on various news/facts

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:40 am

    Excellent news... congrats to HAL and India.

    Wasn't there talk of a further upgrade of the whole fleet to the new standard with the extra 40 purchased from Irkut?

    Should be an outstanding fighter/strike aircraft that pushes Indias rivals in the region to the negotiating table rather than the war room to solve their problems.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Corrosion on Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:41 am

    GarryB, I have seen many conflicting reports regarding upgrades. So far it is not clear how many MKI are going to carry Brahmos missile. It is also not clear if all of them going for "Super-30" upgrade. This upgrade is mostly related to airframe internals and it will not involve any major structure upgrade or engines. As the report states above, orders from HAL stand at 180 aircraft. There have been two follow-on orders i.e. 40 aircraft in 2007 and 42 aircraft in 2010 if I remember correctly. For HAL to make 180, one of these must be from HAL and other from IRKUT. I expect HAL to do upgrades in India, like India is doing with all other upgarde programs. Although we might see a Super-30 upgrade prototype flying in Russia in next few years.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:52 am

    From memory the Moskit, or Mosquito... the air launched version of the SS-N-22 Sunburn, which would be as difficult to fit to a Flanker as a Brahmos (it weighs 4.5 tons and is 9.5 metres long), had a double length attachment attached to both centreline pylons that had reinforcing around where the missile was attached to prevent the weapon hitting the engine nacelles during release.

    I would expect a powerful pneumatic ram to force the weapon down and clear of the aircraft would be required to ensure safe separation on launch.

    I keep thinking what a missed opportunity it was with the Tu-22M3 as its lifting capacity should have allowed 4 external weapon points potentially carrying two Brahmos missiles on each mounted side by side, which would leave the internal rotary launcher with 6 x Kh-15 Kickback hypersonic anti radiation missiles or alternatively 6 x 1,500kg guided bombs of some sort...

    Still, after launching a Brahmos a Su-30MKI would still be ready to fight with the rest of its weapon pylons carrying relatively light (compared with air to ground weapons) air to air weapons.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Corrosion on Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:05 pm

    No, I am afraid it is going to be gravity dropped.

    Launcher Picture

    Designed by BrahMos engineers and approved by the Sukhoi Design Bureau, original makers of Sukhoi, the launcher was indigenously developed by BATL, A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Executive Officer of Indo-Russian BrahMos Aerospace, told The Hindu over telephone.

    Fabricated using high strength aluminium, the 6-metre-long airborne launcher — the largest in the world — weighs 350 kg.

    “The first prototype is undergoing various tests in Hyderabad. Four more prototypes will be fabricated at BATL with tests conducted in a staggered fashion,” Mr. Pillai said.

    Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), in the meantime, has begun to make necessary modifications to the Sukhoi undercarriage to take on the launcher from which the missile, with a take-off mass of 2,500 kg, would be gravity-dropped.
    Source


    So, both centreline stations will have a combined weight of 2850kg. This is no big deal for a Flanker sized platform, now that its underside will be reinforced. I think it is able to do a any Air superiority mission even with a Brahmos hanging on its belly. Just have a look at the pic below with all the stations occupied with mix match of AtoA and AtoG including one Brahmos. A true swing-role beast. Twisted Evil

    MKI with brahmos

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Corrosion on Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:I keep thinking what a missed opportunity it was with the Tu-22M3 as its lifting capacity should have allowed 4 external weapon points potentially carrying two Brahmos missiles on each mounted side by side, which would leave the internal rotary launcher with 6 x Kh-15 Kickback hypersonic anti radiation missiles or alternatively 6 x 1,500kg guided bombs of some sort....
    It would pack quite a powerful punch for sure if something like this is ever done.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:02 pm

    Actually the photo with the Brahmos under the Su-30MKI doesn't look too big really.

    The Moskit looked like a much tighter fit.

    There are interesting photos here:

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Maritime-Flanker-D.html

    and drawings showing the Moskit compared with the Yakhont and Brahmos.

    Note the Moskit actually entered service in the surface launched version in 1980-1982 and the Oniks or Jewel actually technically replaced it in service.
    The Yakhont is the export version of Oniks.

    Brahmos is a significantly upgraded version of the Yakhont with land attack capability and newer electronics, though I would assume the Yakhont will be updated periodically, with the best updates obviously applied to the much longer ranged domestically used Oniks.

    Regarding the pylon perhaps it has a structure that helps the missile clear the aircraft... often large droptanks will have small canard fins at the nose to drag the tank down and clear of the aircraft to make the separation clean. Rear fins unfortunately would actually push the rear of the missile up into the aircraft and would be of no use in improving launch safety.

    Perhaps tactics will be applied and launching the missile will require a specific pull up movement to ensure safe separation.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:10 pm

    BTW here are some photos showing the "extra bits" on the pylon to make sure it doesn't move sideways as it is released:





    In the top photo you can see a bit coming down the sides of the missile to prevent it moving sideways, and in the bottom photo you can see the bit at the front of the pylon that seems to be there to stop the nose moving to one side or the other.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Corrosion on Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:45 pm

    Although Moskit is longer and fatter than Brahmos but I don't think those drawings on Ausairpower page are according to scale. The difference is not that large.

    Thanks for the relevant pics BTW.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:59 pm

    The Moskit is 4.5 tons in the air launched version.

    The Yakhont is 2.5 to 3 tons tons in its air launched version AFAIK.

    Also the Moskit has much larger electronics and is of a previous generation.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  AJ-47 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:30 pm

    As a basic platform for the multirole heavy fighter aircraft, the Su-30MKI is remarkable primarily for its universality. It boasts a so-called “open architecture”, making it relatively easy to add new systems in the basic electronic equipment and to use advanced guided weapons (supplied by different manufacturers).
    The Su-30MKI sports a Russian radar and optic locator, French navigation and heads-up display systems, Israeli EW and weapon-guidance systems, and Indian computers.

    Do you know what's the price for the Su-30MKI?

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:24 pm

    AJ-47 wrote:
    As a basic platform for the multirole heavy fighter aircraft, the Su-30MKI is remarkable primarily for its universality. It boasts a so-called “open architecture”, making it relatively easy to add new systems in the basic electronic equipment and to use advanced guided weapons (supplied by different manufacturers).
    The Su-30MKI sports a Russian radar and optic locator, French navigation and heads-up display systems, Israeli EW and weapon-guidance systems, and Indian computers.

    Do you know what's the price for the Su-30MKI?

    Hard to say, deals typically include more than just airframe. External customer price? Probably at least 55-60 million by now, per airframe. Domestic price would naturally be less.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:55 pm

    AJ-47 wrote:
    As a basic platform for the multirole heavy fighter aircraft, the Su-30MKI is remarkable primarily for its universality. It boasts a so-called “open architecture”, making it relatively easy to add new systems in the basic electronic equipment and to use advanced guided weapons (supplied by different manufacturers).
    The Su-30MKI sports a Russian radar and optic locator, French navigation and heads-up display systems, Israeli EW and weapon-guidance systems, and Indian computers.

    Do you know what's the price for the Su-30MKI?

    The SU 30 MKI to be built in India at HAL would cost around $22.5 million a piece and those built in Russia by Irkutsk Aircraft Production Association around $37.5 million .

    The cost of upgrading 272 SU 30 MKI to Super Sukhois is $2.4 billion as per Indian Parliamentary transcripts.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  victor7 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:01 pm

    Why this 60-75% cost difference. Russia has production lines up and running for Su30s as it has been exported to other countries. How can HAL make these for merely $22M?

    For $15M difference you are talking 5 new T-90s bypassed for each Su30 made in Russia.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:06 pm

    Those numbers sound very suspect.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Corrosion on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:47 am

    These type of deals are very complex. Just to give an idea.

    According to this source last updated on 02.Feb.2009: http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html © VayuSena
    HAL chairman Nalini Ranjan Mohanty has said that the Indian-built Su-30s will cost only about $22.5 million a unit against the current import price of about $37.5 million [5].
    Originally from: Financial Express, 10-Dec-2001. Note that is 2001.

    Another one from above source:
    Deal III (October-December 2000) : A Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was signed allowing the license production of 140 Su-30MKIs and in December 2000, the deal was sealed in Russia at the IAPO factory. The deal combines license production with full technology transfer and hence called a 'Deep License'. For instance, HAL Koraput will also produce 920 AL-31FP engines, while the mainframe and other accessories will be manufactured at HAL's Lucknow and Hyderabad Divisions. Final integration of the aircraft and its test flight would be carried out at HAL's Ozhar (Nasik) Division. The original plans called for the first Su-30MKIs from Nasik to be delivered to the IAF in 2004-05, with production increasing to a peak of 10 aircraft per year from 2007-08 onward at this rate the production would have stretched to 2017-18. At Air Force Commander's Conference held in Oct-2002, the Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy, asked the HAL to complete the project in 10 years. This was confirmed by N.R.Mohanty on 12-Nov-2002 while speaking to the press [6]. Therefore, the new schedule would mean that a maximum of 14 planes per year will be churned out by HAL and hence finishing in 2013. The original costs of Rs. 20,000 Cr remained as it is, even though such an action is expected to raise costs. According to Mohanty, HAL planned to counter the inflation by "outsourcing in low and medium type jobs while the critical items will be HAL's own."
    Now INR 20,000 Cr. equaled about USD 4.27 Bil. in 2000. So it comes out to be USD 30.5 mil. per plane. IMO it included setting up infrastructure and misc. costs.

    Some other info from same source:
    The IAF signed a US $1462 million (equivalent to Rs 5122 crore) deal with Sukhoi on 30 November 1996 for the delivery of 40 Su-30 aircraft and the associated equipment
    This was not "MKI" but "K" version. Come out to be USD 36.5 mil. per plane including associated equipment.

    Deal II (September 1998) : The IAF decided to buy 10 additional Su-30Ks for US $277.01 million
    Comes out to be $27.7 mil. So that associated equipment must be about USD 9 mil. per plane, unless IAF got these particular ones cheaper because these were originally destined for Indonesia.

    Also another contract was signed where Russia took 18 Su30 K and MK versions back and supplied 18 MKI version for another USD 270 mil.

    Another interesting article from 2007, just to give an idea of complexity:
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sukhoi-deal-hits-turbulence-as-russia-wants-to-hike-price/31385/ page 1
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sukhoi-deal-hits-turbulence-as-russia-wants-to-hike-price/31385/2 page 2
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sukhoi-deal-hits-turbulence-as-russia-wants-to-hike-price/31385/3 page 3
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sukhoi-deal-hits-turbulence-as-russia-wants-to-hike-price/31385/4 page 4

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Corrosion on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:54 am

    AJ-47 wrote:
    Do you know what's the price for the Su-30MKI?
    That is a very difficult question to be honest with you. Very Happy

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:33 am

    I rather suspect the difference in cost does not reflect the whole package, and certainly does not include French made components which while not numerous accounted for a large percentage of the total cost of the aircraft.

    BTW if India can crank out Flankers for 22 million then forget about T-90SM tanks WTF are they buying Rafales for?

    Also there is profit margin to be considered... the Russian price will include a profit margin while the Indian price is just the cost to assemble it.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Corrosion on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:45 am

    Also you have to take in account the economies of scale. eg. MKI order from HAL is 182(140 + 42). Where supplier companies know they have a long term business and naturally they will drop some price to be competitive and hold on to the buyer.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  AJ-47 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:35 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    The Su-30MKI sports a Russian radar and optic locator, French navigation and heads-up display systems, Israeli EW and weapon-guidance systems, and Indian computers.

    When Algeria learned that that aircraft has Israeli items they decided to cancel the deal. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but its interesting idea.



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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  AJ-47 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:39 am

    The SU 30 MKI to be built in India at HAL would cost around $22.5 million a piece and those built in Russia by Irkutsk Aircraft Production Association around $37.5 million .

    The cost of upgrading 272 SU 30 MKI to Super Sukhois is $2.4 billion as per Indian Parliamentary transcripts.
    In this price can India sell these plane to another country?

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:24 am

    AJ-47 wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:
    The Su-30MKI sports a Russian radar and optic locator, French navigation and heads-up display systems, Israeli EW and weapon-guidance systems, and Indian computers.

    When Algeria learned that that aircraft has Israeli items they decided to cancel the deal. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but its interesting idea.



    They haven't cancelled anything, they are still receiving Su-30s. The whole thing was pretty stupid, there are not that many Israeli components on the bird, of all the things to be concerned about...

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:26 am

    AJ-47 wrote:
    The SU 30 MKI to be built in India at HAL would cost around $22.5 million a piece and those built in Russia by Irkutsk Aircraft Production Association around $37.5 million .

    The cost of upgrading 272 SU 30 MKI to Super Sukhois is $2.4 billion as per Indian Parliamentary transcripts.
    In this price can India sell these plane to another country?

    They can't sell them to another country. And if somehow they were able to, you can bet the cost would be much much more.
    I would like to know how much the IAF is actually paying for a domestic Su-30, in say 2009 or 2010.

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