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    Indian MMRCA competition: News

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    Austin

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:57 am

    Well i think Indian played of the American , Russia , Sweden , Europe to its benefit , they probably knew very well that this deal will be for Europe but they kept the other players in the game to extract the best deal and see how their aircraft performs.

    Every one knew Mig-35 was a weak contender so was F-16IN , the American brought in 2 aircraft in the hope one would get selected and poliical pressure would work.

    Surely all the contender would have learnt their strong points and shortcoming as evaluated by IAF and shared with them , so in a way it would help them eliminate it.

    I thought Mig-35 win would have streamlined the logistics and would help in rationalisation of force with a good and cost effective fighter but any ways IAF opted for an expensive and top of line fighter , i think eventually IAF will realise that most of the money goes in maintaining different types of fighter in its inventory and is a logistic nightmare at the time of crises and they would have used the money better by streamlining their force.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:40 am

    Every one knew Mig-35 was a weak contender so was F-16IN

    I strongly disagree.

    For the F-16 being the current in service best Pakistani aircraft strongly counted against it, but for Mig the fact that the Indian Navy had just selected the Mig-29K and that Mig had just been selected to upgrade the Indian AFs Mig-29 fleet to Mig-29UBT standard should have counted in its favour rather than against.

    There wouldn't have been a need for the MRCA competition if France had cooperated in deals and requests with the M2Ks.

    I doubt Mig appreciated having its time and money wasted competing for something they had no chance of winning.

    Hopefully they didn't compromise the design features of the Mig too much to meet Indian AF needs and wants.

    Pretty clear now why they didn't bother sending more than a model to Aero India 2011.

    I don't think the Indian AF knows what it wants.

    During a conflict they will have fun working out which aircraft and weapon combinations they can use and which they can't. I hope their enemy is very understanding and doesn't destroy aircraft India is not allowed to use against them on the ground.

    Austin

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:17 am

    What I meant was Mig-35 was more in F-16 , Mirage-2005 and Gripen class and was more suitable to compete amongst them both in price and performance.

    Where Rafale and eurofighter more appropriate comptetitor was Su-35 , sukhoi was told not to participate so was F-15 barred but F-18 also in similar class was allowed to compte

    So a more appropriate comptition would be among superhornet,rafale and ef typhoon.

    The rest now I think were just there for bargain with the rest three , obviously the looser would not take that kindly.

    Its very difficult to accept how Gripen and Eurofighter would compete in the same race
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  nightcrawler on Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:31 am

    The F-16 was meticulously aded to the competition in hope to pressurise Islamabad to update its F-16 fleet to IN blocks, learning for now that Pakistanis are more interested in the fleet of J-10 & Turkish F-16 updates..

    Pervius

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Pervius on Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:03 am

    US plays both sides...India..Pakistan...throw ships full of money at both. Greed keeps the world wanting the US currency to still have value. If their pockets are full of it they won't declare the US dollar is worthless....

    Too bad Russia didn't realize this and went the "collapse and break apart" route.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:16 am

    The Russians didn't have the whole worlds monetary system built around them... they weren't too big to fail.

    The US government played the Chinese against the Russians and they were happy to ignore the fact that the Chinese are commies because of big business that didn't see communism... they saw 1.5 billion people who needed rubbish cars and blue jeans.

    In the US view of India... India was always too friendly with Russia to be a potential market but now the draw of 1.2 billion consumers that will need rubbish cars and blue jeans is calling to them.

    The world was in trouble when there were 300 million people using resources faster than the rest of the 6.5 billion of the rest of the worlds population... imagine a world when China and India have fallen under the consumerism spell of the US and are consuming at that rate too...

    The danger to the world isn't global warming or nuclear weapons... it is consumerism... greed is not good.

    If Obama had stepped up and said the future for the US is recycling and efficiency and alternative energies the US could focus on clean energy and cleaning up the world and it could sell this to the world and it would no longer be dependent on oil.
    It could be a world leader again.

    Have you noticed there is no such thing as an oil company any more?

    They are energy companies.

    Just like straight after WWII there were departments of war and ministry of war in the west. Overnight they became department of defence and ministry of defence... just like the oil companies today only the stationary changed.

    Hopefully Russia will see the light and realise that clean green technologies are the way forward... for such a large country self sufficiency and clean energy will be good for its outposts all over Russia and beyond. The best way to promote growth is energy that is reliable, cheap, and clean(ie creates no problems).
    Likely lots of places in India that are just waiting for such things too to start to develop.

    Austin

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Austin on Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:12 am

    From recent reports in India , the spares issue of Russian weapons has gone bad and spares takes a long time to come affecting operational capability and uptimes.

    US is making most of it and many defence deal was signed and will be signed even though US equipment cost a lot.

    Now it seems India is willing to pay more money if it gurantees certain amount of uptimes and spare support etc , for eg the C-130 deal is guranteed to provide 80 % uptimes.

    Now the only option for Russia is to charge very close to Western equipment and provided guranteed spare and uptimes at a premium.

    Right now money is not a problem so Russia should ask more and provide firm support.

    Suprisingly I do not hear such spares and maintenance issue for Russian equipment in other armies , which would mean they dont exist in the way it exisit in India , It is over blown by Western Lobbies or India could be unique in experience uptimes and spares issue of Russian equipment.

    Russia should also sell some arms and equipment to Pakistan as US sells to India and Pakistan , see no reason why russia should not do the same.
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    Baajirao

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Baajirao on Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:First of all is there any proof that the explanations given were false?

    The potential for this to be a snub at India for rejecting the Mig on the grounds of diversity is interesting.

    If the Mig was rejected on the grounds of keeping diversity within the Indian AF why did India wait so long and let Mig spend millions of dollars in a competition it was never going to have a fair chance at winning?

    What is wrong with a lack of diversity in your air force?

    Most countries value commonality, and if a supplier has proven they are reliable and do not impose sanctions on the customer then what exactly is the problem?

    If you want to diversify you spending to different vendors to curry good relations with different power blocks then why not make it clear at the outset of each program that this will go to this power block or that one.

    The fact that Mig didn't send a plane to AeroIndia 2011 is now a bit more understandable... it seems they realised their customer for the Mig-35 has changed from the IAF to the RuAF.

    Indian navy had been irritated due lack of spare parts for its 'Black panther squadron'(Mig-29variant). Though I am fanatic about evergreen Mig-21 its accidents can not be ignored considering fact they were made in India on licence. Like F-16IN, super hornet Mig-35 has air-frame at least decade old. Beside that India already operates Mig-29 class.Indians were trouble in 1999 while using Russian planes in stringer prone Environment for attacking role.Where Mirage's performance was good when LGB modification done with help of Israelite.Life cycle for MMRCA is considered for 40 years.Shortlisted RAFEL is considered as semi-stealth which considered as important feature for next decade.Russians are very aware of these thing, Even Russian president when arrived India , accepted that they have to compete for arm export.We are aware of Russian talent and their accessibility to their gadget.Thats why INDIA has participated in FGFA project.But for current requirement Mig 35 can not be best option...If u put the strategic environment in calculation picture will be crystal clear....Low trade between two countries is Major worries. unshaven

    For your supplier comment please consider ongoing Admiral Gorshkov (INS Vikramaditya deal)How much calculation can be wrong..upto 200%.... initially it was around $900 million...and end up at apr $2.4 Billion...Indians never kept this in mind welcome Shows its not just Buyer-seller relation ship ...

    If you check the news Indian MoD conducted MRCA competition very transparently.Field Trials were taken for 2 years. And each vendor informed with proper supportive data.
    so Mig could have quit competition.But when consider the impact of such move on its penitential customer then millions worth nothing...

    There is no doubts Russians are proven very trusted supplier at time of conflict. respekt
    but this is not enough considering security challenges before India. Even this parmeter has been considered in MMRCA, thts why american are also out of race despite heavy lobbing and back stage tactics...

    Pervius

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Pervius on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:03 pm

    ""Russia should also sell some arms and equipment to Pakistan as US sells to India and Pakistan , see no reason why russia should not do the same.""

    Russia knows Pakistan tied too closely to US-China....Pakistan would undermine any Russian military hardware sent there. Pakistan should only be sold old Russian stock and money used to modernize Russia's arsenal.

    Everyone knows, don't trust Pakistan. Due to Saudi money they've gotten pretty good at playing the game. Saudi and Pakistan are tied at the hip now. Which means they are tied to US-China just as close.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:54 am

    From recent reports in India , the spares issue of Russian weapons has gone bad and spares takes a long time to come affecting operational capability and uptimes.

    The length of negotiations for various programs with India suggests the Indians like to be thorough.

    I remember in the 1990s there were various countries that complained about support and spares and it turned out these countries had saved money by buying from former product customers like the air forces of former Soviet Republics that were reducing their force sizes.

    When it came time to buy spares however these countries were not interested in selling from their spares pools and so the countries had to go to the original manufacturers to buy spares... and understandably after losing sales to other former Soviet Republics the manufacturers were not interested in bargain prices. Some countries actively sold bogus parts on the black market that led to problems too.

    The solution is obvious... buy from a fellow customer if you want to buy cheap, but don't expect the manufacturer to honour spares and support for second hand sales.

    Considering India is so keen to be self sufficient I would have thought a primary pillar of self sufficiency is making your own spares.

    Get the companies that you deal with to set up support and overhaul facilities along with sales depots. Plan in advance what will be needed and when... and don't negotiate to the last penny. Not only should you have operational spares, you should also have reserve spares you can operate while waiting for more to arrive... in other words have enough spare parts and support equipment and have a spares and support agreement with the company that makes the parts.
    If you get stuff cheap from third parties then go to the original maker and get them to check them and overhaul them and then they will likely be happy to support them too.

    Having said that companies in Russia seem more interested in selling new products than selling spares and support equipment for existing material.

    US is making most of it and many defence deal was signed and will be signed even though US equipment cost a lot.

    Which is something I don't really understand. Why not buy the Russian item and spend half the extra money needed to get the US equivelent and use that to pay for a spares pool that will keep you going when there is red tape or problems with support?

    Right now money is not a problem so Russia should ask more and provide firm support.

    It would be rather better for India if the Russians charged extra and set up spares and support service centres in India.

    Suprisingly I do not hear such spares and maintenance issue for Russian equipment in other armies , which would mean they dont exist in the way it exisit in India , It is over blown by Western Lobbies or India could be unique in experience uptimes and spares issue of Russian equipment.

    Of course it is emphasised by rivals and for obvious and selfish reasons.

    Russia should also sell some arms and equipment to Pakistan as US sells to India and Pakistan , see no reason why russia should not do the same.

    Pakistan would not be a huge market for Russian stuff, and the internal problems Russia is having (ie things exploding and people being taken hostage) are largely stirred by the Sunni Muslims which come mainly from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. I don't think they are in any hurry to encourage them.

    Indian navy had been irritated due lack of spare parts for its 'Black panther squadron'(Mig-29variant).

    That deal is part of the Gorshkov deal... if they did not include spare parts and support in the deal, or if they didn't allow for a large enough pool of spares in the initial purchase who do you blame?

    Though I am fanatic about evergreen Mig-21 its accidents can not be ignored considering fact they were made in India on licence.

    Well the fact that they are made in India one assumes spares and support should not be an issue... what was used in the role previously and what was its record like?
    The Mig-21 has been successfully used around the world... why would there be more crashes in India? Is it the pilot training? Taking junior pilots too far too fast? Is it the conditions... heat and dust etc?

    Like F-16IN, super hornet Mig-35 has air-frame at least decade old. Beside that India already operates Mig-29 class.Indians were trouble in 1999 while using Russian planes in stringer prone Environment for attacking role.

    The laws of physics have not changed and aerodynamics have not changed either. The F-22 is not really that much different in basic aerodynamic shape than the Mig-29 despite the age difference. The best solution to Stinger is a targeting pod and expensive guided weapons that can be released above the upper ceiling of Stinger.
    The other solution is Manta DIRCM.

    Where Mirage's performance was good when LGB modification done with help of Israelite.

    The current upgrade for the Indian Mig-29 should allow similar air to ground performance to the M2K.

    Life cycle for MMRCA is considered for 40 years.Shortlisted RAFEL is considered as semi-stealth which considered as important feature for next decade.

    Was that included in the requirements? If it was then why was the reason for the Mig-35 not being chosen given as lack of stealth rather than diversity?

    Russians are very aware of these thing, Even Russian president when arrived India , accepted that they have to compete for arm export.

    The Russians are aware India wont just buy any old crap just because Russia makes it.

    Their history of joint ventures with India to ensure that India gets what they want and need is proof enough of that.

    We are aware of Russian talent and their accessibility to their gadget.Thats why INDIA has participated in FGFA project.But for current requirement Mig 35 can not be best option...If u put the strategic environment in calculation picture will be crystal clear....

    I disagree. The Mig-35 can perform any mission a Rafale or Typhoon can perform. The idea that the Euro canards are stealthy and the Mig is not is just rubbish... especially in Asia. Both the Typhoon and Rafale are very expensive for aircraft that are not stealth aircraft and a Rafale dropping laser guided bombs is no better at it than a Mig-35 doing the same thing much cheaper. Further the choice of the Mig-35 offers potential for future upgrades of the existing Mig-29 fleet to include systems and equipment developed for the Mig-35, whereas the Eurocanards are completely new and different from anything India has in service now.


    For your supplier comment please consider ongoing Admiral Gorshkov (INS Vikramaditya deal)How much calculation can be wrong..upto 200%.... initially it was around $900 million...and end up at apr $2.4 Billion...Indians never kept this in mind welcome Shows its not just Buyer-seller relation ship ...

    The original deal was for 1.4 billion, of which 700 million was for the air component of Mig-29s and Ka-27s and Ka-31s. After looking inside the vessel it was found all the wiring and piping needed replacing and the increase in materials costs led to one increase of 1 billion dollars to a total of $2.4 billion including airwing.

    To scratch build a new carrier of equivalent size would cost 2 billion for the ship alone so they are still ahead of the game.

    The real problem was that it took the Indian government 10 years to negotiate the contract for this quick fix. The Indians needed a carrier fast and Russia had one that they didn't really want to sell to China. The Indians didn't want them to sell to China either but took a decade of talking to finalise the initial contract.

    If it truly was urgent perhaps a 5 year limit on contract negotiations... they could have started work 5 years earlier and it probably would have been completed before material and wage costs increased after 2005. They probably still would have had to have replaced all the wiring and piping, but the materials and wages would have been cheaper and it would be in service now.

    If you check the news Indian MoD conducted MRCA competition very transparently.Field Trials were taken for 2 years. And each vendor informed with proper supportive data.
    so Mig could have quit competition.But when consider the impact of such move on its penitential customer then millions worth nothing...

    So they said at the start that for the purposes of maintaining diversity that Russian products will not be considered and Mig joined the competition anyway?

    Do you have proof of that?

    There is no doubts Russians are proven very trusted supplier at time of conflict. respekt
    but this is not enough considering security challenges before India.

    What else is there?
    The title of this thread is about India being upset that Russia has cancelled a couple of exercises at the last minute. Do you think Russia should be pleased when India tells them a competition they entered to supply India with a multi role fighter they were never going to win because India thinks it already has too many Russian fighters?

    Even this parmeter has been considered in MMRCA, thts why american are also out of race despite heavy lobbing and back stage tactics...

    Remember that the Seaking helos India operates also became pretty useless when the UK stopped supplying spares and support after India tested a nuke.
    Yet you prefer to consider the Typhoon over the Mig.
    France refused to sell you more Mirage 2000s and told you to buy Rafales instead but you refused because they were too expensive... now... the price is higher.

    Pakistan should only be sold old Russian stock and money used to modernize Russia's arsenal.

    Everyone knows, don't trust Pakistan. Due to Saudi money they've gotten pretty good at playing the game. Saudi and Pakistan are tied at the hip now. Which means they are tied to US-China just as close.

    Totally agree.

    Russia should not expand its sales to Pakistan, but it should look more carefully at other asian countries... particularly in terms of getting rid of obsolete equipment.
    It should also look to central and south america for the same thing as their older kit is easier to use and still effective... major purchases could be rewarded with additional sales of the tools and equipment to make their own spares and ammo so they can be self sufficient.

    Austin

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:12 am

    One of the reason why Russia wont win many but just few contracts if at all , is because the current ruling government is very pro-US to the extent that they even risked Government to sign 123 Agreement with the US and others.

    I personally do not see russia winning many deals with the present government in power , even if these products are good and cheap.

    As far as pakistan goes they are already selling then transport helicopters , RD-93 engines for JF-17 etc , Russia want to have a relationship with Pakistan because once US/NATO leaves Afganistan , Pakistan will play a major role there and a bad relationship with Russia would mean more of Afganistan Drugs and Terrorism problem lying in CIS/Russia foot steps.

    Russia also wants to balance its relationship with Pakistan becuase its a nuclear power and after reallignment of relationship between India and US , Moscow is willing to talk to pakistan without the Indian angle bothering them.
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  nightcrawler on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:01 pm

    As far as pakistan goes they are already selling then transport helicopters , RD-93 engines for JF-17 etc , Russia want to have a relationship with Pakistan because once US/NATO leaves Afganistan , Pakistan will play a major role there and a bad relationship with Russia would mean more of Afganistan Drugs and Terrorism problem lying in CIS/Russia foot steps.

    Russia also wants to balance its relationship with Pakistan becuase its a nuclear power and after reallignment of relationship between India and US , Moscow is willing to talk to pakistan without the Indian angle bothering them.

    Great post Austin even the Moscow think tanks believe that Pakistan must be given due concentration from Moscow in its role in South East Asia which also extends to Middle East. I don't know why people keep recalling Cold war thing again & again; when we have learnt that their were mistakes the result of which we have been facing since 9/11. We need Moscow support in building infra-structure & such...
    Be it not defence deals there are other factors of engineering we need Moscow. India has shown how it can diverse its defence machinery then why can't Moscow learn from it with respect to Pakistan!
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    GarryB

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    Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:06 am

    I personally do not see russia winning many deals with the present government in power , even if these products are good and cheap.

    That is the problem with democracy... mood swings worse than any girlfriend you have ever had. And of course the problem that if you haven't completed negotiations before the elections you might have to start again with a new lot...

    Having said that Russia and India have invested a lot of time and energy in each other... it seems a shame to waste it because a new government clearly likes the larger bribes they are likely getting from the US.

    If Russia turns away from India when a friendly government gets in how will they feel about Russia selling Mig-35s to Pakistan? How will they feel about Russia selling Su-35s to Pakistan? Or S-300 systems etc.

    The current trade is minimal... Hip helos in civilian models and the RD-93... which is actually an early model RD-33 modified especially for the Chinese. The Russians have no domestic use for the RD-93 so of course they are going to agree to sell it to the Chinese who will sell it on to Pakistan.

    There have been rumours of India working with Sukhoi on the KS-172 long range AAM, perhaps Pakistan would like to buy some old Mig-31s with R-37s and R-77s.

    I think India would not mind Russian sales to Pakistan as long as they don't effect the current balance. I think the weapon systems Pakistan will want to buy however will be the systems they can't get from the US... like Yakhont and Flankers.

    Of course buying ATAKA missiles for their UCAVs would be useful because the weapon has good performance without wire guidance and already includes HE FRAG warhead versions.

    I don't know why people keep recalling Cold war thing again & again; when we have learnt that their were mistakes the result of which we have been facing since 9/11. We need Moscow support in building infra-structure & such...

    Moscow has experience at rebuilding cities... look at Grozny... the problem is that Pakistan was part of the problem in Chechnya as was Saudi Arabia and the west as well... so it really is not just a cold war thing.

    With respect I can understand with drone attacks from the US that is supposed to be your ally you might be reconsidering your relationships, but there are large and powerful elements in Pakistan that support the Taleban and the Chechen rebels.
    Pakistan needs to sit down and have a good think about its future... will it be with the US and/or Russia or the wahhabists... because neither Russia nor the US like the wahhabists and vice versa.

    Be it not defence deals there are other factors of engineering we need Moscow. India has shown how it can diverse its defence machinery then why can't Moscow learn from it with respect to Pakistan!

    A valid point. Russia does not want to become dependent on energy exports to survive... it would also benefit her to have a much broader range of military export customers too. Perhaps it should start with economic trade... Russia should look at high tech stuff that will benefit isolated areas... like self contained power generation systems that are clean and reliable for remote population centres... Pakistan and India would both benefit from such things and remote settlements in Russia will also benefit too.

    Pakistan will play a major role there and a bad relationship with Russia would mean more of Afganistan Drugs and Terrorism problem lying in CIS/Russia foot steps.

    Actually I disagree. Pakistan will have a big role to play in the future of Afghanistan, but even if everything goes t!ts up and somehow the Taleban take over they have a proven record of being more anti drug than the US. The Taleban dealt with the poppy fields much more effectively and efficiently than any regime since.
    This sort of result will be terrible for the Afghan people as they remain in a time bubble isolated from the rest of the world and living in the 1700s, but it is their choice. They could have supported the Soviets in the 1980s, or the west in the 2000s, but they have clearly chosen their own. Let them live with their choice... it is not the position of Russia to impose a choice like that on another country... that is what they learned in the 1980s.

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  f-insas on Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:33 am

    most probably it will be rafale ,as the french do not attach any string to the contract besides full tot transfer ,and allso promiss us to count as a partner in naval version rafale design


    Last edited by f-insas on Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : m)

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    We also get F-16 Bl/52Ds...& will be getting further upgraded models...all with the stamps: NOT TO USE AGAINST INDIA

    but really who cares
    I am sure the story will be that PAK airforce F-16s were innocently flying near a target in Pakistan that India happened to be attacking and an Indian aircraft attacked the F-16s which had to defend themselves... what choice did they have?

    I mean the west was perfectly happy to believe Suck Arse Milli Vanili that the Russians invaded Georgia in 2008...  Rolling Eyes
    From what I read about Egyptian F16s they are actually incapable of "firing on" aircraft that the IFF deems "friendly". I am not sure if there is a way to "override" that or not... But its the reason the Egyptians are keeping their Mirage 2000s and looking for NON-US interceptors.
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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:12 pm

    I am not sure if there is a way to "override" that or not...
    IFF systems generally have a set of codes that can be and will be changed on a regular basis to prevent the enemy learning the codes and emulating them.

    An "enemy" aircraft in an F-16 will appear as enemy as long as their IFF system is not sending the current correct IFF code, so unless they know it they will appear as enemy or unknown.

    Whether the missiles they carry can distinguish a friendly aircraft or not is another matter as another safety feature an AMRAAM locked on an F-16 might develop a fault that makes it break lock at the last second and miss or the warhead fuse might fail to detonate the warhead till the missile is past the target or detonate it prematurely before the missile gets close.

    During the Vietnam war it was found the SA-2 was not as successful as it could have been because the large RCS of the B-52 targets led to the explosive warheads exploding too far from the aircraft to get a reliable kill because of the proximity fuse settings.


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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I am not sure if there is a way to "override" that or not...
    IFF systems generally have a set of codes that can be and will be changed on a regular basis to prevent the enemy learning the codes and emulating them.

    An "enemy" aircraft in an F-16 will appear as enemy as long as their IFF system is not sending the current correct IFF code, so unless they know it they will appear as enemy or unknown.

    Whether the missiles they carry can distinguish a friendly aircraft or not is another matter as another safety feature an AMRAAM locked on an F-16 might develop a fault that makes it break lock at the last second and miss or the warhead fuse might fail to detonate the warhead till the missile is past the target or detonate it prematurely before the missile gets close.

    During the Vietnam war it was found the SA-2 was not as successful as it could have been because the large RCS of the B-52 targets led to the explosive warheads exploding too far from the aircraft to get a reliable kill because of the proximity fuse settings.
    During the 1991 war Iraqi Mirage F1s were singularly incapable of "launching" radar guided AAMs (super 530F) against western aircraft. No such issues with the Russian planes. The issue of the US/western restrictions on weapons exported to certain countries, and what sort of "backdoors" are built in by design (embedded within the microprocessors / microcontrollers of missiles and weapons system computers) are slightly "mysterious"... but even turkey for example have decided to develop their own "mission computer" for the F16s they operate. The embedded systems in these aircraft are a "black box" to their operators. They don't know what the "configuration" of the weapons computers are and will only "find out" if trying to use the weapon in anger (by which time its too late, on a strategic level, to rearm with aircraft from another supplier).
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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:07 am

    That wont be part of the IFF system, it will be amongst the software for the weapons or the radar... it might even be an uploadable thing where the Iraqi aircraft receive a signal from the French for the missiles to fail to achieve lock to prevent them being used against coalition aircraft.


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    Sujoy

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:55 pm

    After loosing the MMRCA contract , Hillary Clinton ordered State Department to revive Khalistani terrorism in INDIA

    http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/obama-quietly-reverses-hillarys-get-modi-policy
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    mack8

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  mack8 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:36 pm

    Why am i not surprised, probably that's only the tip of the iceberg anyway. Few things the US would love more than to transform India into  another one of their puppets, and the biggest one at that. The indian public should be made aware of these US "policies" through every possible means. If India becomes a US puppet, it will be split into numerous little states, easy to dominate and making sure they won't pose a threat to their hegemonic ambitions anymore... as it is today, India has the chance to become the world's fourth superpower, and the americans would really, really hate that happening, don't forget that.
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    Dima

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Dima on Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:03 pm

    The strategy of US against Russia has been to cut off revenues coming from their exports (which mainly are Oil, Gas and Military hardware) and starve the Russian mil industries to turn to Government support which will in turn put pressure on budget and force the Russian Govt to either cut back on military spending and R&D or neglect other social/national programmes.

    This has been the case for the last 10-15 years and have been very successful in India where America is armed with a very effective army of agents in the Government; media (not a single independent main stream media now, with even "The Hindu" now in pocket); ex-military guys from Airforce, Navy & Army doing the effective work of deriding the Russian hardware when out of office and when in office creating/delaying projects of Russian origin and favouring the western platforms; and an enormous bunch of Indian lapdogs making a living on American money and those grown up with an obsession for the TV screens.

    This have been the case with all big ticket items that we saw in the last decade when the same could have been bought from the Russian side with an Indian investment and a guaranteed returns for the investment.   

    Even in the case of MMRCA there was sort of bias against the Russian offer and even though it may look very fair with no parallel....it doesn't have to be like that. Its a known secret that there is a section in all branch of services that favours western military stuffs and Airforce is no different. The dogfight over Indian skies did not start with MMRCA deal and it was always there as fighter pilots usually have big egos and its takes a lifettime for some of them to let go their loss in combat to their collegues in another aircraft. That would be no different in the case of Mirage-2000 guys who had to face-off with their MiG-29 counterparts.

    To cite one example ...there has been on Indian TV "Pudding" Ahluwalia (a former Mirage-2000 pilot) in companion with American/European salesman, a former tankman, deriding the Russian products and in particular the MiG-29s. Now this, as I understand, has nothing to do with the lack of  of the Russian jets, but basically has to do with his unforgiving nature to the machine that handed him his ar$e multiple times when in service. So what he was doing is beating the shit out of MiG-29 and its new variants in TV studios knowing fully well that he can never beat the MiG-29s piloted by any competent pilot with his beloved Mirage-2000. But it also does not have to be the single reason for favouring western jets because western business presents a good financial returns for its agents.

    So what could be the case with MMRCA tests?
    RAC-MiG have been stating that their machine performed well in high altitude, the demo radar was found good etc. But the media painted a different picture and so did the machine did not take the cut into the final list.

    Maybee the results and point distribution was very fair........ but what about the entire lot of the service personnel that oversaw and was involved the entire process .....what is their background? What fighters were they flying in the past - Mirage-2000, Jaguar, MiG-27, MiG-21?
    It would be really an eye opener if the basic background of these persons (barring their identity) have been made public so that one can close even the slightest doubt of any bias in the selection process for MMRCA.


    Whatever it may...its really high time for Russia to advise India to pick one...either US or Russia and do exactly what US does...pressure India to buy Russian military hardware (not substandard or under specifications, but as per genuine Indian specifications).
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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:16 am

    A source in the Indian Defence Ministry said that India was “watching the developments closely.” The source added it was too early to say if this would factor into the government’s decision to sign a contract. “When such a large amount of money is paid and then a supplier uses geopolitics to delay or suspend deliveries, it does raise eyebrows,” the source, who was not authorised to talk to the media, said. The Indian Ministry of Defence could not be immediately reached for official comment.
    India is continuing its final negotiations for acquiring 126 French Rafale fighters in a deal that would cost around $22 billion. France’s Dassault Aviation won a bid to supply India with Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircrafts and a final contract is being dubbed as the “mother of all deals,” by many sections of the Indian media. Russia, Britain, the U.S. and Sweden have all made attempts to re-enter the race to sell their aircrafts.
    Indian Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha told the Hindustan Times that a deal for the Rafale is “going to happen soon.” Industry watchers in Delhi however say that there will be growing pressure to reconsider France given the volte-face the country made this week when it came to the supply of the Mistral ships to Russia.

    Sorry for off topic... but I predicted there was no way the French could win the MRCA with Rafale and come in at $10 billion dollars... for that sort of money they could have had 200 MiG-35s and 100 upgraded MiG-29UPGs and still had change... yet they complain about their new carrier costing $2.4 billion including air wing!!! The MRCA is 12 billion over budget and no one says anything...

    Personally I think this will all blow over... if the French president was going to cancel it would be easier to just do it now. Postponing the handing over is clearly just about holding off the Americans and the Brits for the time being.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:Personally I think this will all blow over... if the French president was going to cancel it would be easier to just do it now. Postponing the handing over is clearly just about holding off the Americans and the Brits for the time being.

    Agreed.  I think there would be practically zero chance that France will cancel the Mistral, especially now that the Ukie junta has been given a good pasting and what appears to be a lasting cease-fire is now in place (and attributable mostly to Russian diplomacy).  Hollande is a coward as exhibited by his gutlessness in face of US/UK whining, but the craven cheese-eating surrender-monkey (I love that phrase) is more scared of angry French shipyard workers than he is of corpulent US Senators and their limey Cameronite quislings...

    Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson.  Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message...
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    A source in the Indian Defence Ministry said that India was “watching the developments closely.” The source added it was too early to say if this would factor into the government’s decision to sign a contract. “When such a large amount of money is paid and then a supplier uses geopolitics to delay or suspend deliveries, it does raise eyebrows,” the source, who was not authorised to talk to the media, said. The Indian Ministry of Defence could not be immediately reached for official comment.
    India is continuing its final negotiations for acquiring 126 French Rafale fighters in a deal that would cost around $22 billion. France’s Dassault Aviation won a bid to supply India with Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircrafts and a final contract is being dubbed as the “mother of all deals,” by many sections of the Indian media.  Russia, Britain, the U.S. and Sweden have all made attempts to re-enter the race to sell their aircrafts.
    Indian Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha told the Hindustan Times that a deal for the Rafale is “going to happen soon.” Industry watchers in Delhi however say that there will be growing pressure to reconsider France given the volte-face the country made this week when it came to the supply of the Mistral ships to Russia.

    Sorry for off topic... but I predicted there was no way the French could win the MRCA with Rafale and come in at $10 billion dollars... for that sort of money they could have had 200 MiG-35s and 100 upgraded MiG-29UPGs and still had change... yet they complain about their new carrier costing $2.4 billion including air wing!!! The MRCA is 12 billion over budget and no one says anything...

    Personally I think this will all blow over... if the French president was going to cancel it would be easier to just do it now. Postponing the handing over is clearly just about holding off the Americans and the Brits for the time being.
    How I'd love to see it cancelled... Twisted Evil  InAF would have been nicely equipped with those MiGs, and more resources could be put to other projects including their carriers...
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    Mike E

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    Re: Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Post  Mike E on Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:57 pm

    fragmachine wrote:Imo Russia doesn't need those mistrals. If France would cancel this deal then Russia would receive surplus money.Also, India would then cancel it's deal for overpriced Rafale and get Russian MIGs.
    That would be great (the money), but it is not guaranteed that India would cancel their deal...

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