Indian MMRCA competition: News

Mike E wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:

Mike E wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Mike E wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:

Mike E wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!

I'm 100% with you on both points, even more so on the second one... MiGs are excellent platforms for upgrading, and India already has not only the planes in their inventory, but the knowledge for good maintenance as well.

ricky123 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?

God India, just choose already.

the thing is they say Germany is giving some 50% discount . which makes the offer very tempting

according to EFT consortium every country is supposed to order certain number of fighters .if they dont they will have to pay a fine .

all of the countries involved in EFT have cut down on the orders .but if they get the indian order they can save the money . hence the discount .

does any1 else has any related news ?

16 will be "used", so that helps lower the cost. Also, as these units will be downgraded (export models), the price better be cheaper!

That is unusual, but I assume that Germany already ordered all of the required planes.

I've seen news on the subject, but nothing new...

Considering Paris upped offer by 10 or 20 bin Euros Im not surprised India is looking for something else. Perhaps now should be the perfect time to again offer 10bin $ MiG-35 deal to India

considering India currency droped and they are not swimimng in money. They need to optimize and perhaps MiG-35 still has some chances. Funny thing however is that French

still dont have the deal in their hands after so many years.

Viktor wrote:Considering Paris upped offer by 10 or 20 bin Euros Im not surprised India is looking for something else. Perhaps now should be the perfect time to again offer 10bin $ MiG-35 deal to India

considering India currency droped and they are not swimimng in money. They need to optimize and perhaps MiG-35 still has some chances. Funny thing however is that French

still dont have the deal in their hands after so many years.

WELL it is the french fault

first they dint want hal as a partner cuz they already had some deals with reliance .then they made some issues with TOT and then with the price again
plus refusing to deliver the ships to russia has also put thier credibilty at risk as a reliable supplier

India was ready to sign this deal but last ditch effort from germany has complicated things . if germany really gives a discount of 3-4 billion dollars , india cannot say no ..cuz if u look EFT and rafael both had been selected ,only on the life cycle cost rafael got the upperhand as been cheaper and got L1 status , but if germany can offer a better Deal .then EFT which also had cleared all the IAF trails can also be preffered ...

Mig was not rdy at that time .. and i am not sure what mig can offer which rafael or EFT cannot ..so i really dont think MIG35 has any chance in this ..

If the price thing is what counts again than we are back to MiG-35 again and its a winner. With full ToT and all.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Mike E wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:

Mike E wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!

LOL, was down voted for this post, I don't know why because it's pretty much true.

Hmm, probably RTN or a different troll...

The news about the Vladivostok is pretty big... It seems like Russia will receive the ships, and at a lowered cost!

Viktor wrote:If the price thing is what counts again than we are back to MiG-35 again and its a winner. With full ToT and all.

Cost plus the fact that India already has MiGs, and is familiar with them.

Mike E wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Mike E wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:

Mike E wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!

I'm 100% with you on both points, even more so on the second one... MiGs are excellent platforms for upgrading, and India already has not only the planes in their inventory, but the knowledge for good maintenance as well.

I was told that the MiG-35 performed poor during the competition, because at that time the project had not been 100% completed yet. At that time MiG-35 had quite a number of errors but Mikoyan was not upset about that, therefore some people suspected that MiG-35 is just a screen to cover the top secret, non-commercial projects of Mikoyan, for example the supersonic MiG-41.

I suspect that for Russia, Sukhoi is appointed to be the main exporter and handles the business enterprise, meanwhile Mikoyan is appointed to handle the top secret projects which Russia will not export to anyone. Although on the cover Sukhoi and Mikoyan are competing against each other.

Lowered cost is because of the delays and is part of the contract...

Common sense would say MiG-35... with an AESA radar and RVV-BD 300km range AAMs, not to mention the ability to carry 1.5 ton loads on its inner pylons.

Add to that simplification of the air fleet with the MiG-35 having commonality with the upgraded MiG-29s and MiG-29Ks of the Navy, and its ability to replace the Mirage 2000, the Jaguar, the MiG-23, and old model MiG-29s in service.

However this was all about keeping the pro west faction happy and they don't want another Russian plane... they wanted a Mirage 2000 or to produce M2K locally, but France insisted on Rafale and a ridiculous price... the MRCA was to evaluate Indias options and perhaps get France to reduce the price, which they clearly have not... 126 aircraft for $22 billion works out to $175 million per aircraft... a medium fourth gen fighter that likely will be more expensive than the heavy Fifth gen fighter they introduce...

GarryB wrote:Common sense would say MiG-35... with an AESA radar and RVV-BD 300km range AAMs, not to mention the ability to carry 1.5 ton loads on its inner pylons.

Add to that simplification of the air fleet with the MiG-35 having commonality with the upgraded MiG-29s and MiG-29Ks of the Navy, and its ability to replace the Mirage 2000, the Jaguar, the MiG-23, and old model MiG-29s in service.

However this was all about keeping the pro west faction happy and they don't want another Russian plane... they wanted a Mirage 2000 or to produce M2K locally, but France insisted on Rafale and a ridiculous price... the MRCA was to evaluate Indias options and perhaps get France to reduce the price, which they clearly have not... 126 aircraft for $22 billion works out to $175 million per aircraft... a medium fourth gen fighter that likely will be more expensive than the heavy Fifth gen fighter they introduce...

Leave it to bureaucrats to ruin EVERYTHING, sounds like India has a few "Serdyukov's" of their very own! BTW shockingly enough GarryB, you weren't down-voted for coming to the same conclusions as me...

That was very early in its development... With its R&D finished and problems worked out, it would be a great entry into the Indian competition.

GarryB wrote:Lowered cost is because of the delays and is part of the contract...

+

GarryB wrote:Common sense would say MiG-35... with an AESA radar and RVV-BD 300km range AAMs, not to mention the ability to carry 1.5 ton loads on its inner pylons.

Add to that simplification of the air fleet with the MiG-35 having commonality with the upgraded MiG-29s and MiG-29Ks of the Navy, and its ability to replace the Mirage 2000, the Jaguar, the MiG-23, and old model MiG-29s in service.

However this was all about keeping the pro west faction happy and they don't want another Russian plane... they wanted a Mirage 2000 or to produce M2K locally, but France insisted on Rafale and a ridiculous price... the MRCA was to evaluate Indias options and perhaps get France to reduce the price, which they clearly have not... 126 aircraft for $22 billion works out to $175 million per aircraft... a medium fourth gen fighter that likely will be more expensive than the heavy Fifth gen fighter they introduce...

It does look good for the Indian Air Force, more so when you consider the low cost and as you later mentioned, the commonality.

Holy crap! $175 million dollars! That is approaching F-22 levels for crying out loud!

India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.

Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.

medo wrote:India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.

Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.

Hmm, that would be great for both India and Russia... The "Mark 2" uses US made engines, but the "Mark 3" will not (it will use their indigenous engine). So either way they won't be using many foreign engines.

Mike E wrote:

medo wrote:India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.

Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.

Hmm, that would be great for both India and Russia... The "Mark 2" uses US made engines, but the "Mark 3" will not (it will use their indigenous engine). So either way they won't be using many foreign engines.

only tejas Mk1 is using US engines . MK2 is still in the design phase . so nothing concrete happening there .

PLus i dont think India will go for the migs as india wanted to buy something else rather then the same upgraded Mig29 .

now the subsdised verison of EFT will be very cheap almost %50 of the acutall cost ,in the news they said it would cost around $9 bil for 126 .but we dont really now how much of that is true .. plus another factor is time ... EFT had gone thru all the trials and passed just like Rafael .. Mig35 hasnt and india will be running out of fighters in 2018-2022 period . so i dont think india will go for the migs cuz it will again take few more years to conduct the trials and negotiate the price ..

ricky123 wrote:

Mike E wrote:

medo wrote:India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.

Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.

Hmm, that would be great for both India and Russia... The "Mark 2" uses US made engines, but the "Mark 3" will not (it will use their indigenous engine). So either way they won't be using many foreign engines.

only tejas Mk1 is using US engines . MK2 is still in the design phase . so nothing concrete happening there .

PLus i dont think India will go for the migs as india wanted to buy something else rather then the same upgraded Mig29 .

now the subsdised verison of EFT will be very cheap almost %50 of the acutall cost ,in the news they said it would cost around $9 bil for 126 .but we dont really now how much of that is true .. plus another factor is time ... EFT had gone thru all the trials and passed just like Rafael .. Mig35 hasnt and india will be running out of fighters in 2018-2022 period . so i dont think india will go for the migs cuz it will again take few more years to conduct the trials and negotiate the price ..

I've heard that it will use the US engines, but we will have to wait and see...

Why not buy the -35? It gives them the advanced capabilities they want at a lower cost, they probably want it over the other -29 variants.

A) 16 of the jets would be used, which lowers the price.

B) They would be downgraded export models that have worse avionics, which also lowers the price.

C) -35 has proven itself to be reliable, and it would give India commonality.

D) The price has already been decided upon, and trials don't even take years...

Mike E wrote:

ricky123 wrote:

Mike E wrote:

medo wrote:India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.

Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.

Hmm, that would be great for both India and Russia... The "Mark 2" uses US made engines, but the "Mark 3" will not (it will use their indigenous engine). So either way they won't be using many foreign engines.

only tejas Mk1 is using US engines . MK2 is still in the design phase . so nothing concrete happening there .

PLus i dont think India will go for the migs as india wanted to buy something else rather then the same upgraded Mig29 .

now the subsdised verison of EFT will be very cheap almost %50 of the acutall cost ,in the news they said it would cost around $9 bil for 126 .but we dont really now how much of that is true .. plus another factor is time ... EFT had gone thru all the trials and passed just like Rafael .. Mig35 hasnt and india will be running out of fighters in 2018-2022 period . so i dont think india will go for the migs cuz it will again take few more years to conduct the trials and negotiate the price ..

I've heard that it will use the US engines, but we will have to wait and see...

Why not buy the -35? It gives them the advanced capabilities they want at a lower cost, they probably want it over the other -29 variants.

A) 16 of the jets would be used, which lowers the price.

B) They would be downgraded export models that have worse avionics, which also lowers the price.

C) -35 has proven itself to be reliable, and it would give India commonality.

D) The price has already been decided upon, and trials don't even take years...

Do u really think india would buy downgraded JETs to save money.

ok let me tell you how it works Germany and other countries had agreed to order some number of jets when they started EFT ,but if they reduce the numbers later then they will have to pay a heavy Fine . this is applicable to all the 4 countries involved .

Now if india orders from germany they are saving money from the fines they might have to pay for not ordering the EFT , now that is true for UK and Italy also cuz both of them are ordering F35 , so if they get indian contract they save money ,

They are providing %100 TOT also . They say they will use thier own production lines so that india could get the First 18 jets faster .
So this offer is very tempting .Cuz rafael has not budged on the price yet ... Rafael got the L1 Status cuz it was cheaper when the life cycle cost were taken into account . but now the EFT is much more cheaper . They Both had qualified for the Tender after the trails which took 2 years .the only thing was the price to decide the Deal .. so here i think Germany has really played its cards well .


Now for the Mig-35 IAF will have to Test it again .and compare it with Rafael and EFT and see if it on PAR with those .
Now i am not sure which Engines Mig35 uses . but it seems if IAF goes for EFT they are willing to help with the engines for Tejas also .

maybe someone here can explain it better

Engines are only one part of a jet, and the used engine has and would work fine. If anything they'd be worried about sanctions in the future and a lack of engineers for the engines in India.

In all honesty, that doesn't have anything to do with India...

Yes, it is good for them, but is it for India? - Nope.

100 bucks says that Germany is only proposing this deal to punish France for the Mistral.

True, but have they will probably want to test the EF again as well. EFT and Rafale have somewhat different roles than the MiG. They are both closer to "air-superiority" aircraft, while the MiG is more multi-role, which is what India needs. India already has advanced air-to-air capability in their Flankers.

MiG-35 is not an option... they are replacing Mirage 2000s with these "cheap" stopgap medium fighters...

If only Gripen had a Swedish Engine...

GarryB wrote:MiG-35 is not an option... they are replacing Mirage 2000s with these "cheap" stopgap medium fighters...

If only Gripen had a Swedish Engine...

I don't know, if India is interested in Gripen as their Tejas is in the same class and have similar capabilities and the same engines.