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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

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    flamming_python
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:08 pm

    Gentlemen, I think we've found the reason for the provocations against Russia forces in the Crimea



    Should have known. Should have known!  cheers 

    Werewolf
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:26 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Gentlemen, I think we've found the reason for the provocations against Russia forces in the Crimea



    Should have known. Should have known!  cheers 

    The comments under this video are brilliant.

    i quote:

    giving advice on how to start and spectacularly lose a war. wrote:

    Another writes

    I wonder what flavor that tie is. wrote:

    Саакашвили и глава СБУ перешли на русский язык. wrote:

    Question will they arrest SBU and suckashwili for speaking russian?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:49 pm

    Hey guys is this credible? Because if it is than this is damning evidence that the opposition leaders were advocating violence!

    Ex Ukrainian Prime Minister (Sergei Pashinsky) Under Timoshenko Caught With Sniper Rifle and Silencer



    :30 seconds in, the guy with the glasses and the skull cap looks exactly like Sergei Pashinsky:




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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Regular on Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:10 pm

    Yes, it's credible.

    Look at that, fascists are on pro russian side in Crimea. Chetniks are ala banderas, Nazi coloborators, they are no different then their Ukrainian analogues

    Go to Kosovo and remove kebab there, Nazi idiots. Both sides are fucking bastards, the more it escalates and bodies start flowing the better for land they live on.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Regular on Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:26 pm

    Firebird wrote:I was also thinking about flying out to the Ukraine myself. :-/

    russia 

    I would buy you a ticket. I wish You good luck trying to explain Crimean gopniks and their fat women that You are on their side and not secret English speaking spy Very Happy

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Firebird on Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:29 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Hey, Firebird, you can buy automatic rifles in the USA, can't you?  Twisted Evil

    I think you can buy anything in US, provided u have a doctor's certificate of insanity.


    Alas I am in England.

    So far I've been concentrating on hearts and minds. Altho there's a shortage of those in numerous NATO countries..

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Viktor on Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:40 pm

    Regular wrote:Yes, it's credible.

    Look at that, fascists are on pro russian side in Crimea. Chetniks are ala banderas, Nazi coloborators, they are no different then their Ukrainian analogues

    Go to Kosovo and remove kebab there, Nazi idiots. Both sides are fucking bastards, the more it escalates and bodies start flowing the better for land they live on.

    There are 5 or 7 of those Chetnik fools and even Serbia is making laugh of them. This is hardly comparable in size or political support or anything.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Regular on Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:46 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    Regular wrote:Yes, it's credible.

    Look at that, fascists are on pro russian side in Crimea. Chetniks are ala banderas, Nazi coloborators, they are no different then their Ukrainian analogues

    Go to Kosovo and remove kebab there, Nazi idiots. Both sides are fucking bastards, the more it escalates and bodies start flowing the better for land they live on.

    There are 5 or 7 of those Chetnik fools and even Serbia is making laugh of them. This is hardly comparable in size or political support or anything.

    I really hope it stays that way. They are on the wrong side anyway.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  etaepsilonk on Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:56 pm

    To Firebird:

    Whoops, for some reason I thought, that you lived in America. My bad.


    To Regular:
    "I really hope it stays that way. They are on the wrong side anyway."

    What? Laughing  I thought that you'd have figured out by now, there are no good or bad sides. This is all just a matter of perception.

    And those Chetniks aren't a threat to anyone, it's not like they're armed or anything.



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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:04 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:

    What? Laughing  I thought that you'd have figured out by now, there are no good or bad sides. This is all just a matter of perception.

    And those Chetniks aren't a threat to anyone, it's not like they're armed or anything.

    Thought the exact same thing, don't see problem if they are just peacefully there and not forcing anything upon anyone.

    flamming_python
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

    Everyone without Crimean/Sevastopol registration in their passport should be evicted; i.e. all these newcomers who are creating trouble. Including the Cossacks and whoever else. Wouldn't have minded them but I'm not sure they're disciplined enough.
    IMO the local defense forces, Berkut, etc... are strong enough to handle things on their own. Especially now that the Russian military has their back

    There are too many provocations going around, some by infiltrators from other regions of the Ukraine trying to create conflicts to discredit Russian control of the peninsula, and others by pro-Russian forces or locals. There is a considerable amount of hysteria among the local population. Some extremists view the Ukrainian officers who have stayed loyal and their families as a potential 5th column.
    There have been incidents with journalists allegedly getting attacked and so on. Could be provocateurs, could be locals.

    Timoshenko is already saying that a partisan war could be starting in the Crimea. It looks like that's the game-plan; infiltrate enough anti-Russian outsiders, start causing enough chaos, provocations, incite ethnic conflicts against the Crimean Tatars, etc...
    Basically create enough chaos to discredit the Russian military presence and press for OSCE military observers, UN peacekeepers, etc... any such thing will allow the illegitimate Ukrainian goverment to reassert control over the Crimea.
    Meanwhile the current and ex leaders of the Crimean Tatar Medzhilis organisation are going around trying to win the support of Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc... calling for Turkey to send peacekeepers to prevent them from being ethnically cleansed, etc... (not kidding, that's what they're claiming will happen). They represent far from all Crimean Tatars, most of them haven't bought into the hysteria and are far more moderate whether pro or anti Russian; but nontheless this organisation is influential and it negotiates on the international level directly.
    Even the local Rabbi has sided with Kiev and is claiming that there was no anti-semitism until the Crimeans took matters into their own hands, a slur was written on the wall of the synagogue, etc...

    These are all very insidious, effective tactics, and should be checked immediately. Or things will spin out of control. Especially if firearms are smuggled in.

    The solution is fortunately pretty simple - organise additional patrols, including by the Sevastopol self-defense forces; check everyone's passports, including at checkpoints, and of those detained in any incidents, and those that don't belong there and have only come within the last 2 weeks - chuck them right out.
    If someone's coming to visit relatives or for business, then fine, but they should be able to
    a). Show that their intentions are what they say they are.
    b). Get alibis from local residents who they are coming to visit or have dealings with.
    c). Declare where they will be staying for the duration of their visit and for how long.

    As for the Crimean Tatar Medzhilis - they must be sidelined, Russia must demonstrate all willingness to work with the Turkic states that the Medzhilis is turning to and address any concern presented.
    None of these countries need this headache so they will be satisfied with Russia's readiness to co-operate and will leave it at that.
    Meanwhile the Crimean government and Russia should promote one of the rival Crimean Tatar organisations, there are a few of them and they have far more friendlier views towards Russia.

    Russian forces shouldn't have come, but now that they are there; it looks like they'll have to stay - things could start heating up now.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  zg18 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:31 pm

    Who controls Crimea , controls Black Sea or even better controls all of the processes in Black Sea. Kiev didn`t recognized enough importance of Crimea (funnily enough Yanuk did most in that sense)


    - the most expensive part of South Stream , through Black Sea bottom , has new much much cheaper alternative through Crimea or shallow waters of peninsula , saving Gazprom billions (no need for Turkeys yes also)

    - Hydrocarbons around Crimea waters , some confirmed , some perspective is now in Russian hands, Yanukovych gave rights to Western companies and now it`s over (bye , bye energy independence)

    - Ukraine lost status of sea power , access to sea now in control by Russia (Odessa)

    - rival pipeline/energy projects like White stream and others involving Odessa as key point cannot be executed

    - and off course , Crimea is unsinkable aircraft carrier hanging over Black Sea , with already built submarine bases in Soviet period now ruined but can be fixed

    It seems to me , all this talk about Maidan, history , rights , NATO , EU etc. Putin stroke gold with Crimea strike for far worldly/rational reasons. And West gave him perfect excuse , they now must be kicking themselves real bad.




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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:56 pm

    PLA Official Mouthpiece

    Commentary: The West's fiasco in Ukraine

    BEIJING, March 7 -- For a brief moment, Western leaders might have stopped to congratulate themselves for their "accomplishments" in Ukraine.

    With their backing, Ukrainian opposition protesters successfully toppled the pro-Russian government, forcing out the president they loathe and dealing a humiliating blow to the Kremlin.

    The West might have scored a major victory in this latest round of goepolitical fight. But things turned out otherwise.

    Shortly afterwards, Russia struck back. Now, with Russian military personnel deployed in eastern Ukraine to protect Russia's legitimate interests and pro-Russian regions clamoring for a secession from Kiev, Ukraine is teetering on the brink of total chaos and disintegration.

    The West's strategy for installing a so-called democratic and pro-Western Ukrainian government did not get anywhere at all. On the contrary, they have created a mess they do not have the capacity or wisdom to clean.

    Their ill-fated plan was fundamentally flawed from the very beginning. First of all, they were destined to shoot their own feet when they, under the cliche pretense of supporting democracy, interfered in Ukrainian domestic affairs by engaging in biased mediation.

    Second, they underestimated Russia's will to protect its core interests in Ukraine. Russia may no longer be interested in competing for global preeminence with the West, but when it comes to cleaning a mess the West created in the country's backyard, Russian leaders once again proved their credibility and shrewdness in planning and executing effective counter moves.

    Last but not least, Western leaders were delusional when they believed they, with dented moral authority and shrinking financial coffers, could still take up such a grand task of nation-building.

    Unfortunately, Ukraine and its people have become a big victim in this grueling process.

    The Ukrainian people do not get the democracy or prosperity the West promises. Instead, all they can see in their beloved country now is political confusion and economic depression.

    The West itself also becomes a loser as the fiasco in Ukraine will surely erode its credibility.

    For the rest of the world, once again, people see another great country torn apart because of a clumsy and selfish West that boasts too many lofty ideals but always comes up short of practical solutions.

    But the world does not need to be too pessimistic. The game in Ukraine is far from over. The international community still has the opportunity to salvage the country by working together.

    Major powers should set their animosity aside and start working for a compromise. The Ukrainians should abandon their political infighting and work to restore law and order in their country as soon as possible.

    After all, an independent, complete and stable Ukraine best serves the interests of all, including China.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:38 am

    Trying to make a list of military related industries in Ukraine.

    In the East and South:

    The aircraft/helicopter engine maker MOTOR SICH has factories in Zaporozhie and Donetsk regions
    ANTONOV aircraft maker has a factory in Kharkov region
    MOROZOV designed Tanks are made in the MALYSHEV factory in Kharkov region
    KRAZ trucks are made in Kremenchuk, Poltava region
    BLACK SEA  shipyard is in Mikolaev region
    ZALIV shipyard (commercial and icebreakers) is in Kerch, Crimea
    FEODOSIYA shipbuilding company (smaller ships) is in Crimea
    KHERSON shipyard (commercial) is in Kherson region
    Ballistic missile maker (previously) YUZHNOYE is in Dnepropetrovsk







    In the Western regions:
    ANTONOV AVIANT plant is in Kiev
    ARTEM missile plant (Air-air and anti-tank missiles) is in Chernigov region
    FORT pistol maker is in Vynnitsa region






    Please add in whatever I missed.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Firebird on Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:55 am

    Regular wrote:
    Firebird wrote:I was also thinking about flying out to the Ukraine myself. :-/

    russia 

    I would buy you a ticket. I wish You good luck trying to explain Crimean gopniks and their fat women that You are on their side and not secret English speaking spy Very Happy
    Yes, I wondered about my accent etc : D And flying into the Crimea from  Britain on a GB passport.

    I think I'd have to be surrounded by my Russian crew (all military/ex) at all times, who would vouch for my patriotism. 
     russia

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Firebird on Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:00 am

    TheArmenian wrote:Trying to make a list of military related industries in Ukraine.

    In the East and South:

    The aircraft/helicopter engine maker MOTOR SICH has factories in Zaporozhie and Donetsk regions
    ANTONOV aircraft maker has a factory in Kharkov region
    MOROZOV designed Tanks are made in the MALYSHEV factory in Kharkov region
    KRAZ trucks are made in Kremenchuk, Poltava region
    BLACK SEA  shipyard is in Mikolaev region
    ZALIV shipyard (commercial and icebreakers) is in Kerch, Crimea
    FEODOSIYA shipbuilding company (smaller ships) is in Crimea
    KHERSON shipyard (commercial) is in Kherson region
    Ballistic missile maker (previously) YUZHNOYE is in Dnepropetrovsk







    In the Western regions:
    ANTONOV AVIANT plant is in Kiev

    ARTEM missile plant (Air-air and anti-tank missiles) is in Chernigov region
    FORT pistol maker is in Vynnitsa region






    Please add in whatever I missed.
    This is what baffles me. When my grandfather was around (LOOOONG) time ago in Kiev it was considered 80% Russian. And ofcourse was Russian terrirtory pre the USSR. EVen Tymoshanko admits its 80% Russian *speakers* today.Only for a tiny length of time since the 9th century was it in a country separate from Moscow.

    I'd call Kiev, Central. A vital cultural and historic and resource centre. A powerful historical case and winnable in terms of inhabitants.

    Lvov, ofcouse in contrast, is true West and an absolute hellhole, IMO. Altho even there, I bet voting is so rigged you couldnt even assess it accurately.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:58 am

    TheArmenian wrote:Trying to make a list of military related industries in Ukraine.

    In the East and South:

    The aircraft/helicopter engine maker MOTOR SICH has factories in Zaporozhie and Donetsk regions
    ANTONOV aircraft maker has a factory in Kharkov region
    MOROZOV designed Tanks are made in the MALYSHEV factory in Kharkov region
    KRAZ trucks are made in Kremenchuk, Poltava region
    BLACK SEA  shipyard is in Mikolaev region
    ZALIV shipyard (commercial and icebreakers) is in Kerch, Crimea
    FEODOSIYA shipbuilding company (smaller ships) is in Crimea
    KHERSON shipyard (commercial) is in Kherson region
    Ballistic missile maker (previously) YUZHNOYE is in Dnepropetrovsk







    In the Western regions:
    ANTONOV AVIANT plant is in Kiev
    ARTEM missile plant (Air-air and anti-tank missiles) is in Chernigov region
    FORT pistol maker is in Vynnitsa region






    Please add in whatever I missed.

    Poltava is a central Ukrainian region, their symapthies accordingly lean more towards the West than the East.

    BTW there is a lot of info here:
    http://www.ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/requipments/1/16
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Defense_Industry_%28company%29

    I'd say the main ones you missed are:

    Eastern Ukraine:
    Ivchenko-Progress - aircraft engines design bureau, Zaporozhie
    Zorya-Mashproekt - gas turbines production, Mykolaiv/Nikolayev

    Central & Western Ukraine:
    Kiev Arsenal - military-grade optics and other specialised equipment, Kiev


    Last edited by flamming_python on Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:10 am; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:02 am

    Double-post


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:05 am

    Firebird wrote:
    Only for a tiny length of time since the 9th century was it in a country separate from Moscow.

    Even that "tiny length of time" is only according to the "Scaligerian history" (disinformation).


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:23 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Sorry for the double post.)

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  dino00 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:18 am

    zg18 wrote:
    - Hydrocarbons around Crimea waters , some confirmed , some perspective is now in Russian hands, Yanukovych gave rights to Western companies and now it`s over (bye , bye energy independence)


    Do you have any sources, i can´t find any...

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Firebird on Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:27 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Firebird wrote:
    Only for a tiny length of time since the 9th century was it in a country separate from Moscow.

    Even that "tiny length of time" is only according to "Scaligerian history" (disinformation).
    Bits of the Ukraine were occupied by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Other bits were part of Austria-Hungary.
    Even when  under Mongol occupation, the Kievan Rus was essentially one place. Then in there was the a so called Republic during the Civil War and Great Patriotic War  which was opportunist bullshit.

    Even in the West, the number of anti-Russians is in no small part due to the mass slaughter of pro-Russians in the War.

    Basically, the claim for the existence of a Ukrainian state, separate from Russia is fairly bullshit in intl legal terms. I mean, if this shit was ever gonna happen, the Ukraine would never have been allowed to break away from Moscow in any way in 1991.

    There's nothing more obscene than reading a Ukrainian website that talks shit about "Ukraine having been occupied by foreign powers like Moscow". They are just pathological liars.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:33 am

    Stephen Cohen: Western Recklessness Could Spark ‘a New Cold War Divide’ in Ukraine

    MP3 Audio of Interview with Stephen Cohen

    http://www.electricpolitics.com/media/mp3/EP2014.02.24.mp3

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:50 am

    US sanctions against Russia are unlikely to succeed without EU’s participation and infact may even prove counter-productive. Europe is heavily dependent on Russian energy and Russian investors hold substantial Euro assets. In an era of slowing economic growth, EU exported goods worth US$ 170 billion to Russia in 2012. Therefore, getting the EU on board is necessary, but difficult challenge, for sanctions to work.

    Moreover, even the US needs Russia’s support when it comes to international mechanisms involving UN Security Council, Syria, Afghanistan, North Korea and Iran. It is the G20 and BRICS which hold more promise to Putin than the G8. A military conflict will push commodity and grain prices .

    A military standoff in Crimea appears to have subsided for the time being with Russia holding all the important cards. But it has outlined deep divisions in its ties with the West. A renewed hostility is in the making which is likely to transform the global balance of power wherein the two sides will compete with each other on a much larger scale. However, the crisis also lays bare the limits of what they both can do vis-à-vis each other.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  zg18 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:06 am

    dino00 wrote:Do you have any sources, i can´t find any...

    LONDON, March 7 (Reuters) - Ukrainian plans for expanding Black Sea natural gas output have been thrown into doubt by Russia's seizure of Crimea, a region linked to most of Ukraine's offshore developments.

    http://www.r*eu*ters.com/article/2014/03/07/ukraine-crisis-gas-crimea-idUSL6N0M41R320140307

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  zg18 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:17 am



    Offshore hydrocarbon fields/blocks in Crimea , Skifska field, Foroska field , Prykerchinska field and Tavryska field.


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