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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

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    zg18
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  zg18 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:25 pm

    Bush administration was genius compared to Obama`s (i know it`s difficult to achieve that)

    Clumsy and sloppy regime change :

    1.) US breached Budapest memorandum by Nuland discussion about next Ukraine PM , massive breach of sovereignty

    2.) Yanukovych was illegally impeached by parliament , therefore massive breach of Ukrainian constitution

    Washington must have been high on drugs if they thought that will go unanswered.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:56 pm

    zg18 wrote:
    dino00 wrote:Do you have any sources, i can´t find any...

    LONDON, March 7 (Reuters) - Ukrainian plans for expanding Black Sea natural gas output have been thrown into doubt by Russia's seizure of Crimea, a region linked to most of Ukraine's offshore developments.

    http://www.r*eu*ters.com/article/2014/03/07/ukraine-crisis-gas-crimea-idUSL6N0M41R320140307

    Rueters makes it seem like Russia took Crimea by force, when in fact the Crimean people are the ones that identify themselves as being Russian.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:09 pm

    zg18 wrote:Bush administration was genius compared to Obama`s (i know it`s difficult to achieve that)

    Clumsy and sloppy regime change :

    1.) US breached Budapest memorandum by Nuland discussion about next Ukraine PM , massive breach of sovereignty

    2.) Yanukovych was illegally impeached by parliament , therefore massive breach of Ukrainian constitution

    Washington must have been high on drugs if they thought that will go unanswered.

    I wouldn't say that, both regimes were failures, the Iraq and Afghanistan war costed the Pentagon over a $Trillion, Iraq under Saddam was an militant enemy of Iran , Hezbollah and Syria, now the govt. of Maliki in Iraq is a militant ally of Iran, Hezbollah, and Syria...and Afghanistan's Taliban was an enemy to Iran, the Karzai govt that was installed is an ally of Iran and was quoted as saying "The Iranians are close friends of mine!" So the Bush Administration spent a $Trillion to make their #1 enemy (Iran) a stronger regional power, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan might go down as one of the biggest geo-political strategic failures in world history!

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:46 pm

    Are US actions really that bad? Aren't they a part of some larger plan to divide the Middle East and then play various factions against each other?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:52 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    zg18 wrote:
    dino00 wrote:Do you have any sources, i can´t find any...

    LONDON, March 7 (Reuters) - Ukrainian plans for expanding Black Sea natural gas output have been thrown into doubt by Russia's seizure of Crimea, a region linked to most of Ukraine's offshore developments.

    http://www.r*eu*ters.com/article/2014/03/07/ukraine-crisis-gas-crimea-idUSL6N0M41R320140307

    Rueters makes it seem like Russia took Crimea by force, when in fact the Crimean people are the ones that identify themselves as being Russian.
    The Crimea's are Russian (or at least the vast majority of them are).

    I've read some Reuters articles on Ukraine and IMO they're slowly becoming more and more of a joke.

    Here are some quotes from one the more recent article i have read (from Anatole Kaletsky).
    http://blogs.reuters.com/anatole-kaletsky/2014/03/06/markets-already-see-a-putin-win/

    What makes this conflict so dangerous is that U.S. and EU policy seems to be motivated entirely by hope and wishful thinking. Hope that Russian President Vladimir Putin will “see sense” — or at least be deterred by the threat of sanctions to Russia’s economic interests and the personal wealth of his oligarch friends. Wishful thinking about “democracy and freedom” inevitably overcoming dictatorship and military bullying.

    Russian annexation of Crimea would be for the Ukrainian government to try to fight back, either by military means or by pressuring the Russian minority in the rest of the country.

    Having grabbed Crimea by force, to give it up now would almost certainly mean the end of Putin’s presidency.
    The Crimea decides Putin's Presidency, yea wright.  Laughing 

    A better analogy for the current confrontation may be the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis. After a summer of nervous speculation in which stock markets around the world fell by 20 percent, President John F. Kennedy confronted Russian leader Nikita Khrushchev with a nuclear ultimatum to remove Soviet missiles from Cuba. Within a week, Wall Street started rising and ultimately gained almost 30 percent in six months.
    This last quote clearly highlights the level of ignorance of this so called "journalist", it wasn't Kennedy presenting the nuclear ultimatum it was Khurshchev, cause he's the one that put them in Cuba to begin with.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:00 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:Are US actions really that bad? Aren't they a part of some larger plan to divide the Middle East and then play various factions against each other?

    That was the plan of Bernard Lewis, Zibgnew Brezinski, Andrew Marshall, etc. but it's failed miserably, Iraq was supposed to be carved in to 3 weakened countries and that hasn't happened yet, and the rise of Al Qaeda in Iraq has made their military adventure look fool-hardy, hell the Iraqi standard of living is worse than it was under Saddam which is disgraceful and saddening at the same time.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:19 pm

    Firebird wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Firebird wrote:I was also thinking about flying out to the Ukraine myself. :-/

    russia 

    I would buy you a ticket. I wish You good luck trying to explain Crimean gopniks and their fat women that You are on their side and not secret English speaking spy Very Happy
    Yes, I wondered about my accent etc : D And flying into the Crimea from  Britain on a GB passport.

    I think I'd have to be surrounded by my Russian crew (all military/ex) at all times, who would vouch for my patriotism. 
     russia

    In that case, the best of luck to you, and I hope that you'll keep us updated on the situation, if possible.  Smile





    ------------------------
    To magum:

    "Iraq was supposed to be carved in to 3 weakened countries and that hasn't happened yet,"

    Is there some information about this that you could share with us?



    ------------------------

    Also, I have seen some videos about Ukrainian army formations on the move. Does anyone have a guess where they could be goin'?
    I'd guess Eastern Ukraine, maybe Odessa too, because invasion into Crimea would be nothing short of suicide.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:00 pm

    Rumour has it that the Ukrainian army is taking up positions for an attack on the Crimea. There are a few indications in favour of this theory; dislocation of Ukrainian units, redeployment of a Ukrainian Uragan rocket artillery unit, etc..
    The Polish consulate has also been withdrawn from the Crimea but that may just be due to political reasons, not because an attack is imminent.

    Personally I don't buy it - no way the Ukrainians will be that dumb. Especially when they've already focused their resources into trying to destabilise the Ukraine and discredit Russian forces there; that seems to be the strategy they've chosen upon.
    Kiev certainly has a number of levers in the Crimea; but an all-out military strike can only ever end in their defeat.

    Oh and as for the rallies today.
    Both of them turned out to be pretty disappointing; neither gathered more than a few thousand.
    In Kharkov there was no sign of the now ex-governor (probably running scared again) or Zhilin of Oplot fame AFAIK.
    However, a masked group of bandits, armed with firearms and clubs did attack a party of protestors returning from the rally, one of them is lying in hospital with a gunshot wound it looks like, in bad condition.
    There are reasons to suspect that the culprits were Pravyj Sektor activists from Dneprpetrovsk, who are known to operate in the city. Assuming it's them, it looks like they're trying to intimidate people.

    Meanwhile in Donetsk - after the abduction of Gubaryov, several of his representitives took over and hosted the rally.. but didn't lead the crowd to any action at all. No storming of the regional administration, or anything like that as happened when their people's governor was still around.
    Seems like they're scared of sharing his fate. Kiev's tactics have bought it some time, but not crushed the movement I quite suspect.
    The Donetsk police meanwhile have refused to carry out Kiev's orders to go out and detain certain participants of the rally. They stayed in their department: http://iskra-news.info/news/milicija_donecka_otkazalas_vypolnjat_prikazy_kieva/2014-03-08-9150

    On the plus-side, Mariupol did demonstrate quite a turnout, considering its far smaller population.

    More rallies are scheduled for tomorrow, in both Donetsk and Kharkov. Hopefully the turnout will be bigger.
    Most important thing is tenacity.
    The Euromaidan protestors' numbers also went down to just a hundred, two hundred at times, and it looked like they would fizzle out. But they didn't
    Now that various repressions and beatings are taking place as the East tries to build a pro-Russian movement, more and more people could become politically active.
    Certainly though it looks like there are more than enough people in Odessa, Kharkov, Dneprpetrovsk, etc... who consider the Russian military as the primary threat, and the Ukrainian military heroes for 'resisting' them.
    IMO this whole process could take a while, just as the Maidan movement did. It does however have the new government's stupidity and imminent economic crisis to accelerate it though.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:08 pm

    Great piece of intelligence flamming_python. I also agree with your thoughts.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:02 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    zg18 wrote:
    dino00 wrote:Do you have any sources, i can´t find any...

    LONDON, March 7 (Reuters) - Ukrainian plans for expanding Black Sea natural gas output have been thrown into doubt by Russia's seizure of Crimea, a region linked to most of Ukraine's offshore developments.

    http://www.r*eu*ters.com/article/2014/03/07/ukraine-crisis-gas-crimea-idUSL6N0M41R320140307

    Rueters makes it seem like Russia took Crimea by force, when in fact the Crimean people are the ones that identify themselves as being Russian.
    The Crimea's are Russian (or at least the vast majority of them are).

    I've read some Reuters articles on Ukraine and IMO they're slowly becoming more and more of a joke.

    Here are some quotes from one the more recent article i have read (from Anatole Kaletsky).
    http://blogs.reuters.com/anatole-kaletsky/2014/03/06/markets-already-see-a-putin-win/

    What makes this conflict so dangerous is that U.S. and EU policy seems to be motivated entirely by hope and wishful thinking. Hope that Russian President Vladimir Putin will “see sense” — or at least be deterred by the threat of sanctions to Russia’s economic interests and the personal wealth of his oligarch friends. Wishful thinking about “democracy and freedom” inevitably overcoming dictatorship and military bullying.

    Russian annexation of Crimea would be for the Ukrainian government to try to fight back, either by military means or by pressuring the Russian minority in the rest of the country.

    Having grabbed Crimea by force, to give it up now would almost certainly mean the end of Putin’s presidency.
    The Crimea decides Putin's Presidency, yea wright.  Laughing 

    A better analogy for the current confrontation may be the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis. After a summer of nervous speculation in which stock markets around the world fell by 20 percent, President John F. Kennedy confronted Russian leader Nikita Khrushchev with a nuclear ultimatum to remove Soviet missiles from Cuba. Within a week, Wall Street started rising and ultimately gained almost 30 percent in six months.
    This last quote clearly highlights the level of ignorance of this so called "journalist", it wasn't Kennedy presenting the nuclear ultimatum it was Khurshchev, cause he's the one that put them in Cuba to begin with.

    Rueters is a British newspaper, so it's no surprise that it's Russophobic. British news media has had a blatant Russophobic agenda since the 1700's, even when Russia sided politically with the United States Union Army against the Southern Confederacy.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:53 am

    Decided to just add this.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:26 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    To magum:

    "Iraq was supposed to be carved in to 3 weakened countries and that hasn't happened yet,"

    Is there some information about this that you could share with us?



    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/09/29/sunday-review/how-5-countries-could-become-14.html?_r=0

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  zg18 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:28 am

    flamming_python wrote:Kiev certainly has a number of levers in the Crimea; but an all-out military strike can only ever end in their defeat

    Any leverage they would use amount to an attack , and would be responded in kind anyway. My thoughts are , if we see a military strike it is because of total agony in Kiev , they probably think how to force NATO hand like Saakashvili did in 2008. End result will be the same.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  SOC on Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:53 am

    Ukrainians getting ready for something?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-08/ukraines-military-mobilizes-prepares-combat-trucks-apcs-tanks-rolling-out

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:03 am

    SOC wrote:Ukrainians getting ready for something?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-08/ukraines-military-mobilizes-prepares-combat-trucks-apcs-tanks-rolling-out



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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  SOC on Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:17 am

    And that has what to do with what I posted?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:23 am

    Indeed , Lets keep the discussion Civil and no personal attacks

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  macedonian on Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:40 am

    Austin wrote:Indeed , Lets keep the discussion Civil and no personal attacks

    I second that.

    @Werewolf: Totally uncalled for.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:04 am

    flamming_python wrote:Rumour has it that the Ukrainian army is taking up positions for an attack on the Crimea.

    There's an outside chance they'll go for a military solution if Crimea continues on it's path. It's not in their interest for tensions to subside

    -------------

    Oh and as for the rallies today.
    Both of them turned out to be pretty disappointing; neither gathered more than a few thousand.

    On the plus-side, Mariupol did demonstrate quite a turnout, considering its far smaller population.

    More rallies are scheduled for tomorrow, in both Donetsk and Kharkov. Hopefully the turnout will be bigger.
    Most important thing is tenacity.

    There's an opinion that they might escalate things in the SE of Ukr. after Crimea formally secedes. There's some talk of forming a "Malorosija" federation down the line. The Rus. government on the other hand seems to be pushing for greater autonomy within Ukraine....which looks like the majority opinion in the SE

    Personally I doubt they'll be able to pacify the SE without resorting to force but they risk a Russian intervention if things get bloody. And time is not on their side with serious social problems on the horizon

    The latest is that the Crimeans have arrested Oleg Rashko (some pro maidan politician)

     Arrow http://www.imperiya.by/news.html?id=128689


    Here he is threatening to shoot people spreading defeatism


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:18 am

    SOC wrote:Ukrainians getting ready for something?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-08/ukraines-military-mobilizes-prepares-combat-trucks-apcs-tanks-rolling-out

    What ? So they decided to flex some muscles by sending troops.

    This will get the situation more tense and third party can "more easily" sparks shooting game by firing from either Russian or Ukrainian side.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:53 am

    Indeed , Lets keep the discussion Civil and no personal attacks

    I see no personal attacks... I would suggest the inclusion of SOCs post as a quote was a mistake perhaps?

    I had to laugh out loud when Kerry went on TV and said that Russian intervention on made up pretences violates international law... that guy should get an acting award... he said it with a straight face!!


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:05 am

    SOC wrote:And that has what to do with what I posted?

    i clicked on quote rather on reply function and this picture summed up what MSM tries to conceal.

    Indeed , Lets keep the discussion Civil and no personal attacks wrote:

    Don't see any personal attacks.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:08 pm

    Today's main news  - 2 nights ago a plane took off from Borispol, Ukraine to an unidentified location in the United States, with all of the Ukraine's gold reserves on board.
    It's reported on even by Ukrainian pro-Maidan news sites: http://ura-inform.com/ru/society/2014/03/07/iz-aeroporta-borispol-etoj-nochju-vyletel-tainstvennyj-samolet
    Airport employees first broke the story and an ex-employee of the finance ministry backed it up. Still, could turn out to be false

    Yatsenyuk meanwhile is on his way to the US too, for instructions.
    http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1359834&cid=5

    Other news - there was a pro-Russian rally in Zaporozhie today. A respectable amount of people; a few thousand. Not a huge amount of course, but finally some activity has been registered there there since the 1st of March. The "March of polite Zaporozhans" as it's called Smile
    They broke into the regional administration building and hung a Russian flag on top. Police at first tried to resist but then gave up.
    http://ura-inform.com/ru/society/2014/03/09/v-luganske-aktivisty-zakhvatili-oblgosadministratsiju

    In Lugansk there was a similar rally, with a similar number of people, that also took their regional admin building and raised the Russian flag on it
    Apparently they forced their governor to abdicate, and are calling for a referendum on joining Russia
    http://v-variant.lg.ua/region/73201-v-luganske-prorossiyskie-aktivisty-zahvatili-oblgosadministraciyu-foto.html

    News from Donetsk - they had another meeting today, in support of their abducted people's governor. Good news is that there were more people than yesterday; about 10,000. Don't know if they undertook any actions or not. It seems not.
    http://lifenews.ru/news/128722



    Rallies have also taken place in other towns of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions; at least one has forced the abdication of their mayor.

    Lastly, an interview with a Ukrainian Colonel-General who has arrived in Simferopol, Crimea from Kiev. He's come to ask the separatist forces (and ostensibly Russian forces) for assistance.



    Colonel-General (or 3-star general) is the 3rd highest rank in a Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian/etc.. military hierarchy; beneath only Generals of the Army/Admirals of the Fleet (Chiefs of Staff, heads of service branches, Defense ministers) and the president himself.

    Earlier on, several Ukrainian generals were fired over their opposition to Yatsenyuk conferring on Pravyj Sektor militants and formations an official military status.
    Seems there is wide discontent amongst the Ukrainian officer corps over this decision.
    As such an officer in such a rank would be either the head of a smaller service branch/sub-branch or the vice-commander of a service branch.
    It seems this chap in particular is the representative of the Zaporozhie Cossack forces in Kiev (General Staff?).

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:20 pm

    UPDATE:

    Seems Lugansk has definitely fallen out of the control of the Kiev authorities  russia 



    The governor has abdicated and has left. Police inside the building aren't trying to prevent the entrance of any protestors, etc... they are only making sure that damage isn't done and no-one loots anything.

    Now the people have to rapidly organise and set up volunteer brigades, checkpoints, etc... they don't have much time until the Kiev government comes knockin'

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:31 pm

    Dreaded Blackwater Mercenaries have arrived 

    Has Blackwater been deployed to Ukraine? Notorious U.S. mercenaries 'seen on the streets of flashpoint city' as Russia claim

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

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