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    Infantry Mobility Vehicles

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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:27 pm

    Some good news about the Volk program: 3 vehicles configurations (two 4x4 and one 6x6) will be tested. Entry in service is hoped to be in 2014. The vehicle has modular arrangement and can be easily converted to carry machineguns, mortars, SAMs etc.

    http://vpk-news.ru/news/703/

    My own guess: If the tests are successfull and the vehicle is adopted in service, among the first recipients will be the VDV.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  medo on Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:28 pm

    Good news, that they will continue with testings and development. Volk is very versatile vehicle and could be used for a lot of different tasks.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Zivo on Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:22 am

    I really hope there's a civilian version in a few years, I wouldn't mind owning one as long as the engine is strong.

    Do we know what RWS it will be getting?

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:02 pm

    Don't think the civilian version will come with a RWS... Laughing

    I would think they would have a range of RWS in development including rifle calibre machineguns through HMGs and grenade launchers to cannon and ATGMs.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Zivo on Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:Don't think the civilian version will come with a RWS... Laughing

    I would think they would have a range of RWS in development including rifle calibre machineguns through HMGs and grenade launchers to cannon and ATGMs.

    I've never seen a picture of the VPK-3927 Volk with any kind of RWS. There's not that many that were built for testing, at least three I know of (standard 4x4, open back 6x6, closed back 6x6), and none of which have any weapon systems. I just think it's a little odd, especially during state trials.

    IMO, based off of what is known, Volk looks a lot more capable than the Tiger, plus the hydraulic suspension will make it a better platform for the VDV. Hopefully a pic of an armed VPK-3927 shows up soon.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:02 am

    Its problem seems to be lack of ready to go production capacity.

    Have heard the main interest in the Iveco is that it is a mature system in production and ready to go now.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:15 pm

    Sorry for my late reply Garry.

    Actually according to This article, the Karatelia only has level 5 protection, which as far as I know is only rated to stop up to 7.62x54, so maybe an SVD loaded with AP rounds at the most? Not that there's anything wrong with that of course.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:24 am

    Actually according to This article, the Karatelia only has level 5 protection, which as far as I know is only rated to stop up to 7.62x54, so maybe an SVD loaded with AP rounds at the most? Not that there's anything wrong with that of course.

    How often do American police vehicles get shot at with 50 cal weapons?

    The design has the usual trade off of all these types of vehicles... it is clearly designed for high speed and mobility... if you start protecting it from 12.7mm ammo then you start to lose both high speed and mobility.

    Don't think of this vehicle as a BTR... this is a UAZ-469...

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:13 am

    Well of course it doesn't need to be protected against .50 cal. I was just answering my own question more than anything. Smile

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Zivo on Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:49 am

    It looks like something from Red Faction. All it needs is some Mars landscape for the background.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:53 am

    Well of course it doesn't need to be protected against .50 cal. I was just answering my own question more than anything.

    It could be 50 cal resistant, but unlikely to stop SLAP rounds or even full bore AP... but keep in mind that heavily sloped armour can cause full calibre bullets to bounce off so even if it wont actually stop 50 cal it might deflect the odd round just because of its shape.

    Many western critics talk about the thin armour on the BMDs and claim it is because the Russian government and military don't care about the lives of their soldiers... the irony is that the western equivalents of the VDV didn't have any armoured troop carriers at all at the time so not only were they less protected they were also less mobile and had less fire power.

    I realise you are not in that category, but when I see the "dune buggy" western vehicles with no armour at all like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Strike_Vehicle

    I wonder why those same western experts don't criticise these vehicles for their lack of protection... even just from the weather and dust...

    It looks like something from Red Faction. All it needs is some Mars landscape for the background.

    I must admit when I first saw it my initial thought was that it was made for a movie, then I thought it was for a game...

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:15 am

    [quote="GarryB"]


    It could be 50 cal resistant, but unlikely to stop SLAP rounds or even full bore AP... but keep in mind that heavily sloped armour can cause full calibre bullets to bounce off so even if it wont actually stop 50 cal it might deflect the odd round just because of its shape.

    Many western critics talk about the thin armour on the BMDs and claim it is because the Russian government and military don't care about the lives of their soldiers... the irony is that the western equivalents of the VDV didn't have any armoured troop carriers at all at the time so not only were they less protected they were also less mobile and had less fire power.

    I realise you are not in that category, but when I see the "dune buggy" western vehicles with no armour at all like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Strike_Vehicle

    I wonder why those same western experts don't criticise these vehicles for their lack of protection... even just from the weather and dust...

    The experts can't say anything bad about America Garry, if they did then the kids would have nothing to brag about on Youtube.

    You seem to have mistaken my posts about the Karatelia's armor protection as some kind of judgement against it. On the contrary, I was actually just really interested in the vehicle and wanted to know what level of protection it was. It looked so futuristic I wouldn't have been surprised if somebody said it could stop a tank round Laughing

    In all seriousness though, Level 5 is not a bad amount of armor at all for a vehicle of that class, better than most actually. Definitely better than a Humvee.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:01 am

    Sorry, I wasn't criticising you or judging... I was just speculating as to what level of armour they would likely want or need for such a vehicle.

    This is a vehicle for the MVD and FSB rather than an army vehicle so it is not really intended for battlefield use, though the fact that it is protected from most small arms fire is probably very useful.

    This sort of vehicle would be used instead of a UAV jeep type vehicle so it seems to have very good protection and I hope you didn't get the impression that my comment about "internet experts" complaining about lack of protection etc etc was directed at you.

    I find the vehicle interesting too... Smile

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TR1 on Mon May 14, 2012 8:52 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tExVQbsaDFg&feature=related

    Summer tests do not look any better than Winter for the Iveco.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:57 pm

    TR1 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tExVQbsaDFg&feature=related

    Summer tests do not look any better than Winter for the Iveco.

    Every time I hear about the Iveco I hate it more and more.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  medo on Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:55 pm



    Interesting photo of Kamaz Vystrel 6x6 with army plates.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:49 pm

    BTR-152 strikes back!

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:11 am

    Indeed.
    It looks much better than the 4 wheeled version.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:24 am

    Great info and lots of photos about project Karatelia, but my Russian language skills are just inadequate. Maybe someone can provide more insight.

    Part 1: http://rusautomobile.blogspot.com/2012/03/blog-post_28.html#!/2012/03/blog-post_28.html
    Part 2: http://rusautomobile.livejournal.com/219735.html

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:57 am

    Should make it a more stable weapons platform and enable more weight in the back.

    And it looks good.


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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  medo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:50 pm

    For my taste Vystrel 6x6 looks far more battlefield vehicle than Typhoon. It look lower and more stable design and protection is somewhere similar (low angle of armor plates gives Vystrel excellent frontal protection).

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:30 pm

    medo wrote:For my taste Vystrel 6x6 looks far more battlefield vehicle than Typhoon. It look lower and more stable design and protection is somewhere similar (low angle of armor plates gives Vystrel excellent frontal protection).

    The Typhoon is just an armoured truck, it's not an armed combat or patrol vehicle like the Vistrel is. It looks like a truck and has all the functionality and features of a truck.. because it is one; just a well-armoured one but even then the focus on armour is not enough to make compromises on certain that make trucks good for transporting cargo around the clock; like for example - standard windows. The Typhoon and Triumf are going to be very useful for the Interior Ministry and FSB troops in places like Ingushetia and Dagestan, where roadside bombs and ambushes are a constant threat and even some ordinary non-combat transport of men or military cargo from one place to another requires an well-armoured vehicle. Wouldn't expect them to be used in the regular army though, at least not the units concerned with conventional warfare. That's where something like the Vystrel, and of course the BTRs and BMPs come in.

    One thing I'm confused about though, is the whole situation with the light vehicles; there are too many of them.
    - Truck, minibus, etc... role in the Russian army is going to be fulfilled by the usual kaleidoscope; Kamaz, Ural, Gaz and maybe ZiL too in the future with their light truck models (their fire trucks are starting to be bought again, in any case)
    - We can safely assume that one of either the Ural Typhoon or Kamaz Triumf is going to be selected for the armoured truck tender; they are probably going to be employed with the Interior Troops and FSB, maybe some of the new Mountain infantry or whatever it is they are planning to set up too.
    - We know that the Kamaz Vystrel is already in use by the Border Guards and now it seems that they are making a version for use by the regular army too (?)
    - We have the regular UAZ Jeep in service (latest version being the UAZ Hunter model I believe). Now, what is the bog-standard venerable UAZ Jeep that is used for driving officers or whoever around, going to be replaced by? The Tigr, Skorpion-2M, Iveco Lynx??
    - It's my understanding that the armoured, armed UAZ Jeep (UAZ Hussar), is on its way out. Again, replaced by what? Tigr, Volk, Iveco Lynx, Skorpion-LTA-B?
    - MRAP vehicle; what's it going to be? SPM-3? A version of the Kamaz Vystrel?
    - BRDM-2, now just what the hell is supposed to be replacing that? Kamaz Vystrel again? A lighter scout car of some kind?

    Now the funny thing about this, is that I'm sure I missed a good few ones out. Like the French Panhard that was looked over by the Russian MoD. I vaguely remember that there was a very light scout car being assessed too (could be the Skorpion-2M I am thinking of). We have the new ZiL prototype 'Karatelia' too. And I probably missed one or two more.

    And even when we get into the heavier vehicles, the confusion doesn't lessen much. Just what the hell is Russia doing with the Italian Centuaro? If it's to assess technologies then fine, but we made the same assessments with the Iveco and now we are buying it in numbers. Other than that, we have a whole family of APC/IFV models on new chassis on the way anyway, and if we really needed a better stop-gap than the BTR-82/BMP-3, we can probably introduce the BTR-90 or whatever.

    In short - just what the hell is Russia doing??

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:28 pm

    medo wrote:For my taste Vystrel 6x6 looks far more battlefield vehicle than Typhoon. It look lower and more stable design and protection is somewhere similar (low angle of armor plates gives Vystrel excellent frontal protection).

    Typhoon is supposed to have 14.5mm protection all around.

    I HIGHLY doubt Vystrel provides that much. I really am not a fan of that vehicle.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:43 am

    Vystrel is a BPM, or armoured patrol vehicle.

    Of course the problem with armour is that anyone can come up with a solution...

    Lets face it... cheap light RPGs are more of a threat than 14.5mm HMGs or 50 cal rifles.

    Even old weapons like M72 LAW and RPG-22 would be a much more common threat to light armoured vehicles than anti armour rifles and HMGs.

    Armour all your vehicles to stop 14.5mm AP ammo and I could produce a new anti material rifle that uses the 14.5mm calibre ammo but because my weapon is a dedicated anti armour weapon I will have a smoothbore barrel and will have a SLAP round specially made for the rifle... standard ammo would not be accurate enough anyway, so special sub calibre ammo with a DU projectile with stabilising fins and a hot propellent load and the armour will no longer be sufficient.

    Obviously it will take a lot of money to get the new weapon into widespread service and the ammo will not be cheap either, but it really doesn't matter what level of initial protection a vehicle has because over time it will need to be increased.

    In fact perhaps instead of a 14.5mm calibre barrel I could change to a 23mm calibre smooth bore barrel with a 23 x 114mm calibre weapon... the larger calibre will allow more energy so even though I will still use the same sized penetrator in a sabot I can pack more propellent and get a higher velocity and better penetration...

    BTW the lighter vehicle you mentioned was the French PVP which might have the Skorpian as its competition.

    In the case of the Mistral I felt that there was no proven and ready Russian alternative and that it was just quicker to buy from France.

    In the case of armoured vehicles however, the Russian demands for amphibious capability should limit the usefulness of vehicles like the Centuaro, so I think that will just be as a yardstick to measure the Russian equivalents by rather than a serious contender.

    AFAIK the Iveco is being purchased for non military use, specifically for Sochi 2014... which I think is kinda weird as it failed in the snow, so why buy it for a winter olympics...

    To be honest I largely blame the media for running with comments obviously taken out of context, and likely largely intended to stir the MIC into action.

    The Russian military didn't really start demanding MRAP type vehicles till after 2008 and there was very little funding offered to support the development of such vehicles. Just threats to buy foreign stuff.

    BTW 2 I suspect the Vystrel will be a potential replacement for the BRDM-2 in FSB and MVD units but will not replace MRAP type vehicles.

    The Vystrel is more of an FSB/MVD type vehicle than an Army vehicle... the Army will likely choose four and six wheel models of Boomerang-10 ultimately for replacing the BRDM-2 in light brigades.

    Remember the scout vehicle in a heavy brigade will be Armata based... though a UAV might perform the actual mission it will likely be controlled from an Armata based vehicle.


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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  medo on Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:32 pm

    Vystrel is also based on standard Kamaz truck, so its production is also quite cheap. Vystrel was designed for FSB border guard units as armored patrol vehicle based on standard truck for easier maintenance. As I know Russian army also use them as recce vehicle with Zala-421-08 UAVs. The vehicle itself is maybe not that fancy, but is for sure quite useful for all MVD, FSB and Army.

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