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    Austin

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    Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:36 pm

    Russia to manufacture Iveco armored vehicles under Iveco license

    Russia will start manufacturing armored vehicles under a license from the Italian company Iveco in 2011, a first deputy Russian defense minister said at Euronaval 2010 on Tuesday.

    The Euronaval 2010 exhibition, the 22nd International Naval Defense & Maritime Exhibition and Conference, is being held at the Paris-Le-Bourget Exhibition Center October 25-29.

    "Production of the first vehicles is to begin next year. The first vehicle will be manufactured at the end of [2011]," Vladimir Popovkin said, adding that a joint venture that will roll out the vehicles has already been established in Russia.

    Popovkin said this will in essence be a Semi-Knock Down assembly. "The use of Russian components is to exceed 50% with time," he said.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Viktor on Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:54 pm

    Wtf ... what about Tiger?
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:12 am

    Makes me think I should believe stories when they first come out, no matter what government sellouts say.

    Austin

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:47 am

    Well what it will definitely do is it will introduce competitiveness and innovation in Russian defence industry , competition is always good , Russian defence maker have a captive market in Russian armed forces and thats not good for the industry and armed forces

    Just to add up to the iveco news , there is a new improved Tigr version available called Tigr-M

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2010/10/25/tiger/

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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:34 am

    There is no reason we cannot make jeeps. Tiger is fine but no order.

    Austin

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:42 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:There is no reason we cannot make jeeps. Tiger is fine but no order.

    Tiger has some orders but it is being supplemented by Iveco , most certainly Tiger has some weakness that made the government opt for Iveco.

    There is a difference making jeeps and making a good one that meets the armed forces need and is cost and technology competitive, Tiger certainly lacks on those front.

    But rather then getting sad and dejected about it , they should take it as a challenge to make better Tiger so that in future you dont have to order more iveco.

    Medvedev has himself said that Russian industry lacks competitiveness and innovation.

    The defence minister has just one message compete or perish , its high time the industry takes the message seriously or they will just perish
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:19 am

    Popovkin on OPK, IVECO, Mistral, and Bulava
    Posted on October 26, 2010 by Russian Defense Policy| Leave a comment

    Speaking to journalists at Euronaval-2010 today, First Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said the Russian Navy needs modernization more than the other armed services. And defense industry needs modernization badly. Popovkin noted:

    “Many industry representatives came to the exhibition with the military. At the exhibition we always need to examine what’s best in the world, have talks, and look at where we aren’t up-to-date.”

    “Without reequipping the Russian defense industrial complex it’s impossible to produce modern equipment.”

    “Our task is not to buy foreign equipment, but technologies on the basis of which we would be capable of organizing production in Russia. We, unlike some other countries, are not secretly copying examples, but openly we say we’re prepared to pay for technologies, to buy licenses for production of this or that equipment. The main condition is the transfer of production to Russian territory and the transfer of technologies.”

    Is Popovkin slamming China? Is China copying secretly or actually quite brazenly?

    On the joint venture (JV) with Italy’s IVECO, Popovkin said:

    “A JV for producing these armored vehicles on RF territory has been created. Next year it will begin production. The first vehicle will come out at the end of 2011.”

    “Essentially, this is final assembly. Nevertheless, we are planning that more than 50 percent of the components in this vehicle should be of Russian manufacture.”

    Popovkin said Russia is now in talks on the specific model:

    “We’ve presented specific requirements. Why? We have our own weather conditions, different employment tactics, therefore the base model will be developed taking Russian conditions into account.”

    ITAR-TASS noted the JV will put out vehicles needed for both the Defense Ministry and the MVD. Licensed assembly of several hundred units of IVECO’s LMV M65 annually could occur at one of Russia’s automotive factories.

    Popovkin also said Russia’s tender for amphibious assault ships has been announced:

    “We’ve announced the tender for the purchase of amphibious assault ships. Two ships will be built abroad. Technology transfer for the construction of the rest is planned.”

    It sounds like Popovkin’s decided a Russian shipyard can’t win the competition for the first two units. Are Russian builders just competing for units 3 and 4?

    Asked about the number of Bulava launches in 2010, Popovkin said:

    “We’re acting sequentially, step by step, therefore it’s impossible to say now the exact number of launches in 2010. The main task now is to conduct the next launch. Based on it, we’ll determine our future plans. Until we get reliability of 98-99 percent, we won’t put this missile on combat duty. The missile’s reliability is determined not just by launches, but also by a whole series of testing work.”

    Meanwhile, a Defense Ministry source has told ITAR-TASS the second Bulava launch of 2010 will occur on 29 October.

    So if the local product is inferior then licence produce a foreign equivelent with modifications to Russias needs and with as many Russian parts as possible. The licence production is about buying new technology and setting up modern production facilities in Russia.
    This is really the boost the Russian MIC needs and will drag it up from its stagnation and give it a modern base to build from.

    I heard the Iveco vehicles are chosen because of their IED resistance... there was a little piece in the news here in New Zealand about one of our soldiers that was killed in Afghanistan and there was speculation that if he had been in an Iveco vehicle he might have survived. He was in a military hummer instead. It seems the US don't like to share their Iveco vehicles and they have tied up production so you probably couldn't buy some now if you wanted to. They also said the IED that killed our guy was huge and that even an Iveco vehicle probably wouldn't have saved him, but the Yanks wont share them... you can get as many Humvees as you want but the Ivecos are in short supply.

    Suggests to me that it is a good vehicle that saves lives so I am glad the Russian forces are getting it.
    Might be able to licence produce some for the Americans or Afghans... Smile

    Edit:
    I should point out that when my Nephew was there a couple of years back he said he liked the Americans and got on really well with them. They were equipped with everything and then some and "gave stuff" to the Kiwi contingent. Note my nephew is not SAS and his role was rebuilding, organising schools and hospitals be built, water and sanitation etc etc so they were quite popular with the locals and were stationed in the north. He was told by the locals that a group of Taleban came and asked the locals for help in getting the foreigners out and the locals said they told them to get lost because the foreigners were doing good and were not shooting anyone.
    Even so the US forces told the Kiwis to use US codes for rescue and support so in a situation where they needed rescue or air support they would have the same priority as a US unit.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:43 pm

    The thing isn't an MRAP and has been criticised for its lack of protection against mines. VBL is superior in protection.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:07 am

    It has a modular armour set up that can be adjusted to meet the needs of the user.

    Perhaps it is mine vulnerable when no extra armour is fitted?

    The Brits, Italians, Spanish, Belgians and Norwegians all picked it for service, but I can't find any mention of the US using it, which contradicts that news report I saw.

    Perhaps what the Russian leadership want is the production capacity to make a Light vehicle with built in modular armour kits?

    The next update of the Tigr might add modular armour kits to its design. That way the Russian military get new vehicles with modular armour and future vehicles will also benefit.

    Of perhaps they have different roles for the Tigr and this vehicle.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:56 am

    Russia to buy 10 Italian armored vehicles

    Russia will buy 10 Lynx light multi-role armored vehicles (LMV) from Italy's Iveco, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said on Friday.

    He said Russia would like to set up a joint venture to assemble LMVs in Russia after the purchase.

    Italian Defense Minister Ignazio La Russa confirmed the country's readiness to transfer production technology for LMV manufacturing in Russia and their subsequent sales to CIS states, Serdyukov's press secretary Irina Kovalchuk said.

    A Russian defense industry source said in August talks were underway on LMV assembly under license at the KamAZ automaker in Naberezhnye Chelny.

    In mid-March the Russian Defense Ministry dismissed media reports that it was planning to purchase up to 1,000 Iveco M65 LMVs.


    Iveco Lince (Lynx)

    Austin

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:13 pm

    Surprisingly there was a snow mobility test between Iveco Lince and Tigr which Iveco failed to clear

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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:20 pm

    It just got stuck there lol.
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    Andy_Wiz

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Andy_Wiz on Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:32 pm

    Meanwhile the indigenious MRAP industry is getting stronger:

    There has bee major redesign of the "Bear" Cool

    According to company's website one prototype has been built.





    "OOO VPK Has produced the first redesigned SPM-3 with V-hull (the machine is primarily for MVD)

    The armour is protecting against 7,62mm armor-piercing SVD bullet at a 100m distance that is 6th class according to russian standard GOST R 50963.
    Mine protection - 2nd class STANAG 4569. "

    Chief of Gen.Staff, Ground forces commander and other high ranking officers attended the presentation of VPK company's Tigr-M, Wolf and BTR-82A at Mulino near Nizhnyi Novgorod.



    http://milindcom.ru/vic/News.html

    Plus:



    There were also reports that Army will buy a small batch of "Tigr-M" for testing in and it will apparently be built instead of basic Tigr's for the Army(as it has new Russian engine). the MVD,FSB and export customers will buy the old one as they don't have the requirement for domestic engine.

    Add to this plenty MRAP R&D programs(on new engines,transmission, ballistic and mine protection,armored tires,crew capsules etc..) now coordinated by GABTU (Main Army Armored Technical Department) as its chief - general Shevchenko has said.

    Makes it interesting where this IVECO thing is going? unshaven

    According to russian forums there is a huge IVECO factory projected to be built in Russia soon, with 3 products they will be coming to conquer Russian market... So this military IVECO shenanigans is kind of a pay Russian goverment had to make to host this factory...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:04 am

    The main reason the Tigr didn't meet military specs was its American Cummins diesel engine.

    The new model Tigr called Tigr-M will have a Russian engine and will be in production by next year for the Russian military.

    Thing is that with the introduction of heavy, medium and light brigades the need for wheeled vehicles in the light brigades will be huge.

    I rather suspect that once the production facilities in Russia have finished making the modular armoured Ivecos M65s that they will begin making the light vehicles for the light brigades... in this case the "Typhoons" for the light brigades and possibly also the Boomerang and Kurganets-25 for the medium that will both require good mobility. I expect the heavy brigades chassis Armata will be all tracked.

    Remember they have a goal of replacing all the old stuff with new stuff, so even if they make 2,500 Ivecos right now they will replace only a small fraction of that sort of vehicles in the inventory of all the government and military.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:41 am

    BTW does anyone know what Russian company is handling this licence production?

    This Russian company will likely get a huge boost with new factory production capacity along with a state of the art tooling and skilled work force... hopefully they will apply what they learn to their own designs and perhaps initiate a few from scratch designed that combine what they have learned with what they know.

    There were also reports that Army will buy a small batch of "Tigr-M" for testing in and it will apparently be built instead of basic Tigr's for the Army(as it has new Russian engine). the MVD,FSB and export customers will buy the old one as they don't have the requirement for domestic engine.

    I have read that the Chinese are interested in the Tigr with the Cummins engine. A US designed engine made in Canada I believe.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:07 am


    Russia to buy 10 Italian armored vehicles
    Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov
    13:05 03/12/2010
    © RIA Novosti. Sergey Guneev

    Russia will buy 10 Lynx light multi-role armored vehicles (LMV) from Italy's Iveco, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said on Friday.

    He said Russia would like to set up a joint venture to assemble LMVs in Russia after the purchase.

    Italian Defense Minister Ignazio La Russa confirmed the country's readiness to transfer production technology for LMV manufacturing in Russia and their subsequent sales to CIS states, Serdyukov's press secretary Irina Kovalchuk said.

    A Russian defense industry source said in August talks were underway on LMV assembly under license at the KamAZ automaker in Naberezhnye Chelny.

    In mid-March the Russian Defense Ministry dismissed media reports that it was planning to purchase up to 1,000 Iveco M65 LMVs.

    Italian LMVs have been used in Iraq, Afghanistan and other NATO missions abroad, where they have performed admirably.

    MOSCOW, December 3 (RIA Novosti)

    So they are actually buying 10 vehicles and the manufacturing capability to licence produce... and the right to sell to CIS countries so they might produce 2,000 but sell 800 to other CIS states.

    The production is going to KamAZ, which is an automaker. That is the truck maker right?

    A quick look at wiki says they make trucks and buses and the armoured vehicle they currently make is the BPM-97.

    (note BPM is not a mistake as its designation basically means armoured patrol vehicle, and not armoured troop transport vehicle like the BTR or MICV like BMP.)

    Austin

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:31 am

    So a lay man question , between Tigr-M and Iveco M65 which is a better vehical in mobility,protection and cross country capability ?

    There must be some good reason why Russian have not opted for Tigr and opted for M65 , if engine is an issue then certainly Iveco is not coming with an Russian engine for sure.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:54 am

    There is a lot of talk about the modular armour packages of the Iveco, so I think perhaps they want a modern light armoured wheeled vehicle that is proven on the front line against various threats.

    Whatever they actually licence build will most likely be optimised for Russian conditions, so either they were after a light armour production technology, or a specific form of modular design they see as useful.

    They have said clearly they are no copiers and when they find a technology they want they will buy that technology and the production techniques needed to produce that technology.

    This might be them buying a new type of light armour for all of their light vehicles or perhaps a modularity design that they can apply to their other vehicles.

    Russia is a huge country and I could see an enormous need for large numbers of well protected light vehicles for all sorts of government and military uses.

    As mentioned above they might actually export some of the vehicles they make to CIS countries... perhaps they will donate 1,000 to Kazakhstan to use as border security vehicles and use the armour technology on their own vehicles they produce in the new factories made to produce the M65s.

    BTW if it serves in the Russian military it had better have a Russian engine, or had better get one quick. That seems to be the only problem with the Tigr and has been sorted on the Tigr-M.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    So they are actually buying 10 vehicles and the manufacturing capability to licence produce... and the right to sell to CIS countries so they might produce 2,000 but sell 800 to other CIS states.

    The production is going to KamAZ, which is an automaker. That is the truck maker right?

    Italy said they are ready to transfer production. It did not say Russia accepted. So far all we have bought are 10 sample vehicles. If Iveco can't make the snow, it will have a short life here.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:53 am

    If Iveco can't make the snow, it will have a short life here.

    I totally agree, but I think the Russian vehicle companies have enough experience to modify the basic design to allow it to handle deep snow/mud etc.

    This is not about buying a vehicle I think. This is about buying modern production technology and perhaps either a light armour technology and or modular design technology from Italy.

    Russian vehicles like the Tigr-M seem to be very good vehicles for their purpose but it is clear that the M65 has some good features too that the Russian military is interested in.

    The two they bought a while back were tested cross country etc so we can assume that the ten new vehicles they want to order might perhaps be for target practise to test their armour performance against various types of dangers... mines, IEDs, various calibres of small arms and HMGs and perhaps even light cannon and RPGs.

    Their armour is modular so they will need ten to test the various configurations of armour.

    If the armour performs well then buy the licence to produce it and you get the armour technology. If the modular design works out well then buy the licence to produce it and you get the modular technology. If the Tigr-M or other Russian product is better then you can just say thanks but no thanks confident that your soldiers already have a good vehicle.

    Austin

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:43 pm

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    medo

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  medo on Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:21 am

    Austin wrote:"Tiger" vs. "Lynx"

    Thank you for the link. Some points here are actually true. If Russian MoD need to import foreign vehicles, it would for sure be better to import German Dingo or Suisse Eagle, than Italian junk. After all Italian know how is how to build beautiful thing without any quality. Just look at Fiat car. I had one and it was a junk.

    Iveco LMV M65 is not an APC, but just an armored car and for that job Tiger, new Volk and after all Vystrel are not worst than M65, if not better. Buying 10 of them for testing and comparing with other vehicles is good, but buying 1000s of them, I don't think this is smart idea.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:51 am

    As Vlad pointed out the Italians have said they are ready to sell and allow a transfer of technology for Russian production, but I hope the Russian military either accept it or not based on the safety of Russian military personnel and the improvement of the Russian military industrial complex rather than a political deal to curry favour with a NATO country.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:06 am

    Found this vid:

    http://visualrian.com/images/item/357018

    (wont let me embed the vid so had to give link above).

    Austin

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:01 am

    Some ballistic protection offered by Tigr/Tigr-M I found ( via artjomh/mp.net)

    All army Tigrs are 3rd protection class (protection up to 9 mm and 5.45 mm, but not against "enhanced penetration" 5.45)

    GAZ-233001 (baseline) - 3rd class
    GAZ-233014 (basic army Tigr) - 3rd class
    GAZ-233034 (basic police SPM-1) - 3rd class
    GAZ-233036 (uparmored police SPM-2) - 5th class (protection against up to 7.62 mm SVD rounds, regular ones)

    VPK-233114 (Tigr-M) is 6A protection class, but the vehicle is still in prototype stages, so it is unknown if 6A is the baseline, or the uparmored version. Class 6A protects against armor piercing 7.62mm rounds (SVD).


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