Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

Isos wrote:It means they are short on such systems and use missiles that widely used.

They should buy Sosna-R. Some 100-200 to give their SAM systems a chance to survive. Indian AD needs an upgrade and get bigger.

Sosn-R and pantsir can solve this issue.

India already chose Biho instead of Pantsir and Sosna.

That's a SPAAG. They need a real SHORAD with good missiles.

They will find out the mistake they made by buying this useless system, probably in a new mini conflict with Panistan, and will beg russians for 70 pantsirs in hurry.

India choose Biho instead of Pantsir, because by India's words it is better than Tunguska and Pantsir.

medo wrote:India choose Biho instead of Pantsir, because by India's words it is better than Tunguska and Pantsir.

They are corrupted, their words have no value. Just like Spice bombs were better than dumb bombs until they actually used them.

Day will come they will beg for Pantsirs.

medo wrote:Kornet is laser beam riding missile, so it looks back to launcher, not to the target. Countermeasures on helicopter will not work against Kornet. Also Kornet-EM is a new missile and it is made to engage flying targets like drones and helicopters. Don't forget, that Ataka have air defense version of missile with expanded rod fragmented warhead and proximity fuse. If Ataka could engage flying targets with laser beam riding missile, than Kornet could as well.

Most current gen helicopter pilots practice low level approach, and use the popup maneuver for launching their air to ground missile, which have a roughly 3–4 miles range. Current gen helicopters has a tactical advantage of surprise as it can often evade radar by staying in the ground clutter until within weapon release range. This requires a Kornet EM ATGM operator to remain on alert and to have NVG working, and to anticipate the vector of approach, and then to get tone within 10 seconds.

Smart mission management systems, which make use of digital  terrain  elevation  maps  and  radio  modems to  link  to  battlefield  intelligence  databases  and ISR  sensors  allows helicopter pilots to mark on the digital map, in colour, areas  where  the  helicopter  is  within  the  line  of sight of any specified point on the map. An operator can  thus  mark  the  known  location  of  a ATGM/MANPADS team or  machine  gun  nest and  then  use  terrain  masking  to  avoid  detection and  weapons  fire.

medo wrote:India choose Biho instead of Pantsir, because by India's words it is better than Tunguska and Pantsir.

No India didn't. K 30 Biho was simply tested along with Pantsir. India never purchased the K-30 Biho

Existing 2K22 Tunguska, OSA AK, ZSU-23-4 Schilka SPAA and Strela has been upgraded and a surface to air version of ASTRA will make its debut soon.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/odisha/2021/feb/22/maiden-test-of-vertically-launched-srsam-from-itr-off-odisha-coast-likely-today-2267271.html

Even if Kornet-EM is employed to engage air targets like helicopters chances are it will miss because platforms like helos apart from carrying several countermeasures are far more maneuverable than platforms like tanks or IFVs.

Kornet uses an auto tracker and would be very hard to evade even in a helicopter... it is a rather fast missile and the 10km range model is designed for both ground and air targets.

There are no known countermeasures to stop laser beam riding missiles... except detect the launch early and fly behind a tree or hill or building... which would not be easy.

The R-73s are interesting... very potent missiles but ground launch would reduce their range. The last time I saw a ground launched model it had a solid rocket booster attached to restore flight performance but against a lot of targets that probably would not be needed.

It has a good sized warhead designed to shoot down large aircraft so it would be a much more effective anti aircraft missile than a MANPADS in many situations.

India already chose Biho instead of Pantsir and Sosna.

The claimed reason for choosing Biho over Pantsir was that the former uses MANPADS with fire and forget missiles using IR seekers. I rather suspect the range was much shorter than the Pantsir but that didn't seem to matter.

Most current gen helicopter pilots practice low level approach, and use the popup maneuver for launching their air to ground missile, which have a roughly 3–4 miles range. Current gen helicopters has a tactical advantage of surprise as it can often evade radar by staying in the ground clutter until within weapon release range. This requires a Kornet EM ATGM operator to remain on alert and to have NVG working, and to anticipate the vector of approach, and then to get tone within 10 seconds.

Where possible helicopter pilots have always tried to operate in such a way but it does make them horribly vulnerable to small arms fire.

Most attack helos have armoured front windscreens, but aircraft like the Apache with its huge side windows are not armoured at all and even assault rifle calibre rounds can penetrate like the 7.62 x 39mm AK round.

Radar is almost never the problem for low flying helicopters because even with IR suppression systems they have 3,000+ HP GT engines that glow and their main rotor blades normally glow with heated leading edges just because of friction.

A Kornet operator would hear a helicopter from enormous distances, and the guidance system uses state of the art 3rd gen thermal imagers that can detect and track helicopter targets at rather more than 10km range. There is no tone, it is not IR guided and the lock is achieved in the aiming system by locking the target with an autotracker... like the target framing on a digital camera in face detection mode... it is almost instant, so you could immediately launch on such a target.

Smart mission management systems, which make use of digital terrain elevation maps and radio modems to link to battlefield intelligence databases and ISR sensors allows helicopter pilots to mark on the digital map, in colour, areas where the helicopter is within the line of sight of any specified point on the map. An operator can thus mark the known location of a ATGM/MANPADS team or machine gun nest and then use terrain masking to avoid detection and weapons fire.

Kornets are man portable and are also mounted on armoured vehicles and Tigr light vehicles... it has no radar to give away its position so the first indication of its presence could be the impact of the missile.

No India didn't. K 30 Biho was simply tested along with Pantsir. India never purchased the K-30 Biho

So all the bollocks about the Biho being superior to the Pantsir was South Korean propaganda....

I seem to remember the claims were fire and forget missiles and reduced vehicle weight over tunguska and pantsir... which is understandable... if you use a smaller lighter less capable gun and smaller lighter less capable and fewer missiles of course the system is going to be lighter...

India reiterates its intention to replace T-72 tanks with "tanks of the future" FRCV
Today, 06: 53
23

India has reiterated its plans to upgrade its fleet of armored vehicles. In the Indian edition of The Print, citing representatives of the high military command, it is reported that the Ministry of Defense is planning to purchase 1770 "tanks of the future. "

The material noted that they intend to carry out the purchase until 2030. And the subject of the purchase is a promising FRCV armored vehicle, which, by and large, is a modular platform. One of its variants in India is going to be turned into the main battle tank of the Indian army.

It is important to note that readiness to purchase 1770 FRCV in India is being said for which year. The first relevant statements were made back in 2015. In 2017, some details began to appear in the media, which indicated "the readiness to replace the T-72 tanks in the Indian armed forces with FRCVs."

"Tanks of the future," as the Indian Defense Ministry calls them, are planned to be purchased from manufacturers "along with technology transfer, logistics, and an engineering support package." The very mention of technology transfer raised questions in the Indian expert community. One of them concerns whether this means that FRCVs may be foreign-made armored vehicles?

The Ministry of Defense has not yet answered this question.

At the same time, the terms of selection of potential suppliers-manufacturers of such equipment are indicated. The final decision is planned to be made by mid-September this year.

Earlier, India announced its intention to purchase 350 light tanks, "which could be effectively used in mountainous areas, including Ladakh." Moreover, the T-72 and T-90 tanks, which the command placed in this region, were called "not quite suitable", although earlier in New Delhi they stated that they have undeniable advantages over the Chinese "mountain" Type 15 - and in terms of firepower, and security.

The pricing parameters of the proposed contract "to replace the T-72" in India have not yet been reported.

https://en.topwar.ru/183608-v-indii-vnov-zajavili-o-namerenijah-zamenit-tanki-t-72-tankami-buduschego-frcv.html

India launches modernization program for BMP-2/2K Sarath infantry fighting vehicles
Today, 10: 36

The BMP-2 / 2K Sarath infantry fighting vehicles in service with the Indian army will undergo modernization. According to the press service of the Ministry of Defense of the country, the Ground Forces have already launched a program to modernize vehicles.

Reportedly, as part of the ongoing program, 811 BMP-2 / 2K Sarath will undergo modernization. The work will be carried out at Indian enterprises; in the course of modernization, the machines will receive a more powerful engine and modern control systems. According to reports, the BMP will be equipped with a gunner's thermal imaging sight and a third-generation commander's panoramic sight, a modern fire control system and an automatic target tracking system.

In the command of the Ground Forces, the modernization was explained by the "blindness" of the BMP at night and the inconsistency of sighting devices with "modern combat conditions."

At the same time, the question remains with the armament of Indian BMPs. Earlier it was reported that changes in weapons would not affect, but at the same time, some Indian sources spoke about the installation of anti-tank complexes "Kornet-E" on the BMP.

The tender for the modernization of the BMP-2 / 2K was announced by the Indian Ministry of Defense last year. Applicants for the contract received one BMP, on the basis of which they had to create their prototype and submit it for testing this year.

https://en.topwar.ru/186508-indija-zapuskaet-programmu-modernizacii-boevyh-mashin-pehoty-bmp-2-2k-sarath.html

Indian Army plans to set up a dedicated Rocket Force



I hope they take some inspiration from the Russian rocket force.

India’s Standoff Anti-Tank (SANT) missile tested today from a Mi-35 at the Pokhran range. Statement says: “Flight-test successful — release mechanism, advanced guidance, tracking algorithms, all avionics performed satisfactorily and tracking systems monitored all mission events.”

Interesting they use MMW radar homing.... suspect they want to use it with their Apaches because AFAIK the Mi-35 does not have a MMW radar...

Note in that video the missile skimmed under the sheet, but it would be steering towards that black triangle that can be seen in the video.

It is sheets of metal wielded together to form a triangle... it is called a corner reflector and is a good target for radar guided weapons to home in on... this missile missed the red circle centre of the target but would not have seen the red dot or the sheet and was actually flying at the black triangle... which should have been raised up to where the red dot was to give a better indication of accuracy.

That's a clear miss. Pretty shitty and expensive. I guess they went for an expensive western like design.

Actually if you look at the video frame by frame in the 8th second of that video you can see the blur of the missile which appears to be the same distance from the centre as that radar corner reflector is on the other side... the missile is coming in very very steeply because it misses the fabric of the target completely and appears to go under the target.

The obvious problem here is that the target is 2 dimensional while most targets will have three dimensions and if that corner reflector is the radar centre of the target then that missile strike would have been a kill... the more so because it is a diving top attack kill because the radar reflector would represent the centre of the target so coming down steeply and skimming under the target sheet would still hit the rear deck of the vehicle.

What they need to do is use a real old vehicle hulk... some target tank from one of their shooting ranges as the target and they also need much higher quality cameras filming the impacts to better assess the results.

Regarding expensive, this would be a fire and forget weapon that could not be dazzled or blinded very easily and would likely be cheaper that IIR options for now.

It would likely not be a primary weapon for helicopters because the target would need to be made of metal so there would be no chance of hitting a log bunker position or taking out a Javelin or Metis team from long range... This is purely an anti tank missile that could be fire and forget, which would be rather useful in the case of an enemy tank attack.

Isos wrote:That's a clear miss. Pretty shitty and expensive. I guess they went for an expensive western like design.

They have ATAKAs for close-up work. This one's for when the presence of enemy tactical air defence is too heavy to risk it.

lyle6 wrote:

Isos wrote:That's a clear miss. Pretty shitty and expensive. I guess they went for an expensive western like design.

They have ATAKAs for close-up work. This one's for when the presence of enemy tactical air defence is too heavy to risk it.

It's a 10km range missiles. Nothing better than Ataka. Radar guidance makes it more expensive and subject to jamming or early detection by ground based RWR.

It will pop up on any AD system when using its radar to look for targets.

Optics are totally passive and laser hard to detect.

It's a 10km range missiles. Nothing better than Ataka.

It is a 10km range so double the range of Ataka almost...Ataka has a range of 6km.

Radar guidance makes it more expensive and subject to jamming or early detection by ground based RWR.

I don't know of any system that can jam MMW radar guided missiles, and AFAIK there are no anti radiation missiles that can home in on MMW radar frequency antenna.

It will pop up on any AD system when using its radar to look for targets.

The Apache or Havoc or Hokum can climb above cover and do a quick scan of the ground in front of it... perhaps 3-4 seconds.... and then drop down behind cover while its analyses the return signal and identifies targets and objects of interest... while it has popped down it can fly left or right a few hundred metres and then pop back up for a second scan if needed... but to fire MMW radar guided missiles the Apache can launch from behind cover at a target detected with the MMW radar guided missile heading towards the target and using its own radar to find and attack it.

An air defence system might detect the emissions and use that to locate the threat, but very few air defences could deal with that easily... honestly the best way to deal with such an attack would be from a modern fighter at medium to high altitude scanning for helicopters and launching missiles like the R-77 or AMRAAM for which few helicopters have the speed or manouverability to evade... of course such fighter aircraft would struggle to continue operating above a battlefield with Russian IADS networks operating...

Optics are totally passive and laser hard to detect.

Agree, but most modern ground forces will be constantly scanning the skies for drones and other threats and an incoming missile will have a significant heat signature which will make them an easy and obvious target for TOR or SOSNA-R/Pine.

May come down to who has enough missiles... and the Russians make them cheap and light and in enormous numbers.

This Indian missile sounds like a slightly extended range Hellfire.

New ataka has 8km range. Vikhr has 12km range.

Any radar can be jammed... and you can home on any radar. It's a signal like any other.

Helicopter can climb and hide behind a moutain but that's where they are the most vulnerable to MANPADS and small arm fire.

Controling the heights of moutains where enemy can hide its planes and helicopters is a basic strategy...even more if you have ground vehicles around there. You base teams of 2 or 3 soldier with manpads and machine gun to destroy any intruders there.

New ataka has 8km range. Vikhr has 12km range.

Do you have confirmation of those ranges?

Any radar can be jammed... and you can home on any radar. It's a signal like any other.

Not actually true on both counts.... in this case the jammer for the initial detection would have to be continuous, which would mean the helicopter could launch a missile in passive mode to hit the jammer. To find targets the radar scans the area in front of the helicopter for 3-4 seconds at most which gives the enemy very little time to turn on a jammer, while a few seconds later a missile can be fired at a solid radar reflection like a tank or armoured vehicle... once the missile is fired the radar beam is a narrow pencil beam illuminating the target, so for the jammer to be effective it would need to be mounted on the target vehicle... which would not happen very much at all.

The Soviets had all sorts of systems to spoil guided weapons, from IR dazzlers and optronic jammers and laser based systems, but AFAIK they don't have any anti MMW radar guided missile systems. The Kh-35 anti ship missile uses MMW radar guidance to make it unjammable and harder to detect (MMW radar is absorbed by moisture in the air), which is why it is often used as a weather radar and is only useful to 10-20km in most climates.

Helicopter can climb and hide behind a moutain but that's where they are the most vulnerable to MANPADS and small arm fire.

Operating very low amongst trees and between hills or tall buildings is their only protection from fighter aircraft but makes them very vulnerable to any ground fire and greatly reduces their performance and visibility for spotting targets, and renders them rather ineffective.

Controling the heights of moutains where enemy can hide its planes and helicopters is a basic strategy...even more if you have ground vehicles around there. You base teams of 2 or 3 soldier with manpads and machine gun to destroy any intruders there.

DIRCMS can render heat seeking missiles less effective but wont stop command guided or laser beam riding missiles.

Not actually true on both counts.... in this case the jammer for the initial detection would have to be continuous, which would mean the helicopter could launch a missile in passive mode to hit the jammer.

Yeah so according to you the helicopter can detect a jamming MMW signal but the ground based RWR can't. And yoy say passive missiles can't be used against the helicopter's radar but can be used against the ground based jammer.

The Kh-35 anti ship missile uses MMW radar guidance to make it unjammable and harder to detect (MMW radar is absorbed by moisture in the air), which is why it is often used as a weather radar and is only useful to 10-20km in most climates.

So how does the kh-35 detects its signal back if it absorbed by moisture on both ways and hit the ship where it looses strenght too ?

Ships electronics are far mlre sensitive and advanced than the one in the kh-35. If the kh-35 with its small radar can analyze the return signal that went both ways and bounced on its target, then RWR on the ship can easily detect it too.

You contradict yourself.

MMW radars are just radars. If you want to jamm them it works the same as any other radar. Just emmit parasit signals on it frequency.

India has successfully test fired the battlefield support surface to surface missile Pralay.

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1473919745061650439?s=20

Specs of this missile

I think someone in the Indian government is smoking a crack pipe to even consider this.

Last year India announced that it wants to replace 1770 T-72 tanks and that it wants to start replacement in 2030.

It's pretty clear that it's homegrown pile of crap Arjun is up to the job. And that project was a complete waste of time and money.

India operates mainly T-72 and T-90. To which production rights given, as well as Indian own upgrades. So why they would even consider buy the leclerc tank is just completely stupid, not only is tank not up to the current level of the T-90 India are using, it's a completely different calibre, and maintenance and parts are not in common with T-72 and T-90. It makes sense to keep, parts, maintenance, training and calibre similar/the same. Indian back in 2019 placed order for over 400+ T-90 so the T-90 isn't going anywhere. They would be better in either upgrading the T-72 or building more T-90. However if they do want to replace the 1770 T-72 with a new generation of tank then the only option on the market is Armata, and I am sure Russia would allow production rights if they were going to replace the whole 1770 with Armata. Let me hope India sees sense and goes for Armata. As come 2030 leclerc no Matter what upgrades u put on it will be not be a tank of the future.

https://www.firstpost.com/india/after-rafales-aukus-snubbed-france-likely-to-offer-its-leclerc-main-battle-tanks-to-india-10260481.html/amp

lancelot wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:India operates mainly T-72 and T-90. To which production rights given, as well as Indian own upgrades. So why they would even consider buy the leclerc tank is just completely stupid...

That makes sense.

d_taddei2 wrote:
... not only is tank not up to the current level of the T-90 India are using, it's a completely different calibre, and maintenance and parts are not in common with T-72 and T-90. It makes sense to keep, parts, maintenance, training and calibre similar/the same. Indian back in 2019 placed order for over 400+ T-90 so the T-90 isn't going anywhere. They would be better in either upgrading the T-72 or building more T-90. However if they do want to replace the 1770 T-72 with a new generation of tank then the only option on the market is Armata, and I am sure Russia would allow production rights if they were going to replace the whole 1770 with Armata. Let me hope India sees sense and goes for Armata. As come 2030 leclerc no Matter what upgrades u put on it will be not be a tank of the future.

Welp. That makes it certain India will purchase Leclerc then.

You know how the Indians like the most mishmashed logistics they can get. It will be... wonderful... 120mm rifled gun on Arjunk, 125mm smoothbore on T-90, and 120mm smoothbore on the Leclerc. A thing of wonder really. Just make sure to pad the pockets of the right people and you are set.

The thing which would make the most sense, I think, would be doing similar upgrades to the T-72B3M and T-90M. The T-90M upgrades are supposedly on the pipeline. Indian T-72 tanks have crap gun penetration. It might not even reliably penetrate a Chinese Type 15 with all the optional armor modules on it. Or the Pakistani VT-4s. It needs a gun and ammo upgrade.

I like the sarcasm. The leclerc would also have issues. Guns and rounds can be upgraded on T-72, and Chinese tanks haven't been battle tested. Remember they thought leopard 2tanks were the be all and end all of tanks yet got penetrated in Syria, can't remember what but I believe was konkurs.

India has published a video of the BLT-72 bridgelayer based on the Soviet T-72 tank

Yeah so according to you the helicopter can detect a jamming MMW signal but the ground based RWR can't. And yoy say passive missiles can't be used against the helicopter's radar but can be used against the ground based jammer.

These missiles are not SARH.... they are ARH... passive missiles can't be used against the helicopters because they don't broadcast MMW radar signals continuously.... they will fly to a position where they think there are enemy forces and then pop up and scan the area for 3-4 seconds and then drop down while their computers process the return signals... the computer will analyse the signal and identify the targets and prioritise them... Hellfire missiles fired at max range are normally lofted up into the air for max ballistic range so when they decide what to attack they don't even need to leave cover to launch a volley of missiles before either leaving the area, or simply moving 500m in either direction to pop up again to scan again for another 3-4 seconds to see what damage they did and if any other targets have revealed themselves.

Any vehicles turning on active jammers would stand out like sore thumbs... and could be used to find targets much quicker than if they were radar silent.

A MMW radar guided hellfire missile is equivalent to an AMRAAM... it will be flying towards its target and using a pencil beam from its own radar antenna to guide itself onto its selected target.

Lots of radar noise coming at it from different directions might distract it... it perhaps has a home on jam capability, but I very much doubt it... if they had jammers then I would think there would be some rumour about them at the very least... they had SHTORA jammers for wire guided ATGMs, and the had the PPAV system for optically guided weapons including enemy snipers... but no mention of MMW radar jammers AFAIK.

So how does the kh-35 detects its signal back if it absorbed by moisture on both ways and hit the ship where it looses strenght too ?

It acquires its target at much closer than it would with a CM wave radar system which could detect targets at 100s of kms.

A ship is a rather large object.

Ships electronics are far mlre sensitive and advanced than the one in the kh-35. If the kh-35 with its small radar can analyze the return signal that went both ways and bounced on its target, then RWR on the ship can easily detect it too.

I didn't say the ship can't detect the missile, but the missile spends a lot more time on autopilot getting much closer to its target before scanning for the terminal portion of the attack.

MMW radars are just radars. If you want to jamm them it works the same as any other radar. Just emmit parasit signals on it frequency.

Sounds so easy to defeat... I guess the hoards of Soviet tanks just needed MANPADS with anti MMW radar seekers and HATO could have been defeated easily...

So, Igla and Verba and new Mark MANPADS are all IR guided, SOSNA/Pine is laser beam riding, Kornet is laser beam riding, TOR and Pantsir and Tunguska are command guided, as is Shturm and Ataka and Khrisantema... the latter also has laser beam riding.... the new LMUR seems to have optical IR guidance with a datalink and Morfei is supposed to be IIR with a datalink as well... most come with a variety of versions... there are single and double warhead HEAT models for the missiles that are anti armour, and most anti aircraft models are HE Frag or even specialised expanding rod anti aircraft designs... but I don't know of any that are actually anti MMW radar.

And the funny thing is that it is teh same for both sides... there was a version of the Sidewinder missile called Sidearm that replaced the IR guidance with anti radiation, but that was for the CM wave radar on the Shilka... when the Soviets and Russians went to MMW radar for Tunguska and TOR they stopped using that particular anti radiation missile...

And the thing is that MMW hellfire is not cheap either... in fact the system is so expensive that only one in four AH-64s had the mast mounted radar fitted... too expensive for the US military... but easily jammed.