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    Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

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    Mindstorm
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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:54 am


    Mindstorm wrote:
    From 6:48 on of this video someone can get a....naturally totally baseless....idea of what said.


    Sorry ...didn't get your point .


    Ok i will try to be more explicit :


    See with attention the last part of the video i have pointed out (in particular from 6:57 on). Memorized ? Well.

    Now image for some second to be the enemy. Ok ?
    You must plan and prepare the position of your : mine fields, bunkers, ambushing anti-tank squads, air defense assets, MBTs, IFV, APCs, C4 vehicles and theirs entire...and very frail...logistical tail (maintenance vehicles, fuel vehicles , ammunition charts , engineering support etc..etc..) ,ok ?

    Now if your opponent is equipped with a classical IFV (let put a Striker or a Puma IFV ) you can plan easily the best position and pathway for your LAVs, MBTs, APCs ,both on the offense and in defense, the times for redeployment or counterattack enemy forces in a particular sector and the most efficient placement for any of your defensive assets knowing that vectors of attacks are self-channeled by bridges - for any sector including a river - solid terrain - for any sectors with lakes, marass or swamps- or by the same coast - for any sector with sea coast-.

    In substance the mere absence of a real amphibious capabilities among IFVs of your opponent mean that you can gain easily local force concentration , organize very easily choke points and ambush ,both in offensive and in defensive operations, with your MBTs, IFVs, CAS aircraft ,anti-tanks squads etc.... or force them in minefields or pre-planned "kill-box" area of your Artillery/Air Force.

    Now if you add amphibious capability to all the vehicles of your enemy you will quickly realize that ,both in the offense and in the defense, your forces became effectively diluted over a territorial surface several orders of magnitude greater -your local force concentration effectively collapse- that several offensive/defensive tactics and solutions become totally impracticable and that the possible gaps opened on your frail rear assets and your entire logistical assets become suddenly not coverable


    Clear the concept now Sujoy ?

    Impact of this mobility feature on the same outcome of a conflcit against a very strong opponent is simply critical.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:55 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Clear the concept now Sujoy ?

    Impact of this mobility feature on the same outcome of a conflcit against a very strong opponent is simply critical

    Appreciate your explanation . Thank You Mindstorm.

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:10 am

    GarryB wrote:The BMP-3 has a serious design compromise because it was demanded it have heavy front armour and heavy weapons in a turret and it had to be amphibious. This meant the engine had to be at the rear to balance the frontal armour.

    If India doesn't care about the amphibious capability the engine could be moved to the front and a ramp rear door fitted.

    So summarise it

    Positive


    1 ) BMP-3 is good frontal protection but side and rear protection is just as good as any of its peers of its generation

    2 ) Has far superior fire power compared to its peers or even current generation ICV

    3 ) Has good Amphibious Capability and Cross Country Mobility

    4 ) The issue of Fuel being dangerous as in BMP-2 has been taken care in BMP-3 by moving fuel to the front and engine to rear.


    Problems


    Crew Comfort is bad as was described by V Popovkin

    http://www.tanknutdave.com/component/content/article/248

    Public Condemnation by Russian General

    In 2010 Russian Gen. Popowkin made a public statement where he criticized the BMP-3 stating that the troops used to ride on the top of the vehicle as the inside was seen as a coffin and that a replacement for the BMP-3 should be developed.


    So how is the crew comfort and safety compromised in BMP-3 ?

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:01 am

    All armoured vehicles are cramped and hot and dusty in operation... there is nothing in service anywhere that could be called comfortable.

    And the riding on top of a vehicle is normal practise WHEN NOT IN DIRECT COMBAT.

    If you are rolling into enemy territory and approaching an enemy strong point you will either be inside the vehicle or walking with vehicle fire support.

    If you are driving around in places where the biggest threat is land mines then you don't sit inside armoured vehicles because most armoured vehicles offer little or no protection to such threats. Sitting on top you could get lucky and get blown clear or fall clear of the vehicle. You are also more situationally aware and can shoot enemy forces with rocket propelled grenades before they fire, or at least jump clear of the vehicle before it explodes.

    If the threat is snipers then obviously everyone will be inside the vehicle... when the threat is road side bombs or mines then you are safer on top.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:56 am

    The only thing compromised is the exit of the troops over the engine deck.
    Russian troops ride on top of virtually every vehicle outside of combat, even with traditional doors, so it is not due to them being coffins.
    Ofc like most of its peers, the BMP-3 is not designed to protect against large mines or explosives.

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:58 pm

    The only negative issue with the BMP-3 is that the troops have to walk over a walk way over the rear mounted engine, which means opening roof hatches and rear doors to get out... the presence of the engine in the rear probably offers some protection from small arms and heavy machine gun rounds, though against anti armour rounds your average engine has too many empty cavities and too much flammable stuff like oil and fuel to make good armour. Troops are a little more exposed when getting into and out of the BMP-3 but the arrangement allows much heavier frontal armour and a much more powerful weapons package which in my opinion more than makes up for the awkward entry/exit setup.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:01 pm

    Well Kurganets will dispense of the awkward setup, so it was definitely not a step foreword.
    The setup had more to do with amphibious qualities + rear engine than particularly heavy front armor AFK.
    IMO BMP-3 is an excellent reco and general purpose vehicle, not so much APC

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:17 pm

    I think with the advancement of armour in 2-3 decades since the time BMP-3 first saw service they can afford to have similar or better armour protection with light armour and can have engine on front.

    Yeah agree getting out of BMP-3 can be awkward and would expose the crew to small arms fire while moving out , so they better be in same safer location while moving out.

    Its more of a design choice that Soviet General would have made , they thought they would want higher firepower and frontal protection without comprmising amphibious qualities and seperating fuel from crew.

    So they compromised a bit on comfort and exposure while moving out

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:08 pm

    Well Kurganets will dispense of the awkward setup, so it was definitely not a step foreword.

    Kurganets will likely use exotic new materials, plus NERA, plus a new APS and simply be a vehicle that is 7 tons heavier than the BMP-3 to further increase armoured protection for its crew and troops, while having a front mounted engine and for the first time on a Soviet IFV a ramp rear door for rapid exit/entry.

    I would say it will be a leap forward... the IFV model will also likely be very powerfully armed too and its modern sensors and equipment will make it even more capable as a recon platform.

    The setup had more to do with amphibious qualities + rear engine than particularly heavy front armor AFK.

    The issue is balance... the whole vehicle could be made of balloons, but the fact of the matter is that if it is far too heavy at the front the nose will sink into the water and the ass end will stick up out of the water and the tracks will not work to propel the vehicle.

    With the heavy turret in the middle, and the frontal armour right at the front there was no way they could put the engine at the front of the BMP-3 and still have it swim properly.

    The frontal armour of the BMP-3 is not tank level armour but it is still fairly significant and heavy.

    The Kurganets will likely have heavily sloped frontal armour and heavier side armour and the rear ramp door will likely be armoured too to better balance the vehicle.

    IMO BMP-3 is an excellent reco and general purpose vehicle, not so much APC

    Actually it is a near perfect APC... it has good mobility and can quickly deliver troops almost anywhere on the battlefield... it would not be a great vehicle to fight from, but then very few similar vehicles would be that safe either (against a serious enemy). The point is that once you drop off the troops you still have a powerful and flexible vehicle that can be used for a wide range of roles and missions.

    Its more of a design choice that Soviet General would have made , they thought they would want higher firepower and frontal protection without comprmising amphibious qualities and seperating fuel from crew.

    In WWIII all those Bradleys lined up to cross the bridges the engineers have set up will not be safer than those BMP-3s that just turned on their bilge pumps and rolled straight into the river at a shallow point... in Afghanistan it might not mean much but in European Russia there are probably more rivers than roads.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:24 am

    So at 25 T will Kurganets will have amphibious capability ?

    Do the more modern IFV from West/Europe like Boxer in 25 T class lacks Amphibious capability.

    I read the BMP-3M that was specifically built for UAE sacrificed Amphibious capability with gain in weight from new engine and electornics

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:09 am

    So at 25 T will Kurganets will have amphibious capability ?

    AFAIK both the Kurganets and Boomerang will be amphibious. In fact the Naval Infantry will have a special model Kurganets designed for rough sea states made for them.

    Do the more modern IFV from West/Europe like Boxer in 25 T class lacks Amphibious capability.

    There are no IFVs that are more modern than Kurganets. Amphibious capability is not a priority for NATO forces so most of their medium and heavy vehicles are not amphibious.

    I read the BMP-3M that was specifically built for UAE sacrificed Amphibious capability with gain in weight from new engine and electornics

    Sorry, but I doubt the BMP-3M that the UAE are interested in has lost its amphibious capability because of a heavier engine and heavier electronics. If anything I would suspect the electronics will be lighter in the newer model rather than heavier and a heavier engine that is placed in the rear of the vehicle should actually balance the vehicle better rather than worse.

    I suspect the UAE were not interested in amphibious capability and had that requirement dropped, which would allow even heavier frontal and side and rear armour to be fitted. All the electronics upgraded would probably have made it lighter rather than heavier but the increased armour without worrying about amphibious capability probably has led to the vehicle losing its amphibious capability because it is now unbalanced.

    AFAIK the BMP-3M is fully amphibious for the Russian Military.

    If India wants to take on the BMP-3M then the first thing they need to do is decide if they need that amphibious capability... if they can do without it then they can make a few changes that will improve the vehicle in terms of protection as well as capacity etc.


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:00 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:44 am

    I read the BMP-3M that was specifically built for UAE sacrificed Amphibious capability with gain in weight from new engine and electornics


    Never heard of that.
    What is for sure is that BMP-3M retain entirely its amphibious capabilities, while enormously increasing any other foundamental of the machine.


    http://www.be-and-co.com/oaf_pdf/oaf_010710.pdf


    Mention should be made that even after the complete upgrade of the BMP-3, its buoyancy remains on a par with the production model.
    In other words, it can swim across wet gaps at Sea State 3 without special preparations.



    Therefore i highly doubt that this information would be correct (probably nothing more than the umpteenth sample of bad ,or worse mercenary, journalism likely coming from some western source).





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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:There are no IFVs that are more modern than Kurganets. Amphibious capability is not a priority for NATO forces so most of their medium and heavy vehicles are amphibious.

    Kurganets is still on drawing board Smile

    Among the modern IFV both Wheeled and Tracked how many of them have amphibious capability ?

    I think your abve statement is contradictory , if Amphibious capability is not a priority how come medium/heavy vehicals are amphibious ?

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:25 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Therefore i highly doubt that this information would be correct (probably nothing more than the umpteenth sample of bad ,or worse mercenary, journalism likely coming from some western source).

    That could be the case then

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:01 am

    Kurganets is still on drawing board

    ... hey you are the one claiming western vehicles are more modern ...


    ie
    Do the more modern IFV from West/Europe like Boxer in 25 T class lacks Amphibious capability.

    Among the modern IFV both Wheeled and Tracked how many of them have amphibious capability ?

    What a really dumb question Austin... I am very disappointed.

    Whether or not an IFV has amphibious capability or not does not determine how sophisticated it is.

    The Armies that buy these vehicles have requirements, and the vehicles are designed to meet those requirements... the fact that NATO countries don't think they need amphibious capability does not make their vehicles more sophisticated or better.

    Russia has a lot of rivers and lakes and because of this they have a requirement for their medium and light vehicles to be amphibious where possible.

    You clearly have decided this makes them thinly armoured and weak.

    You are wrong.

    The separation of crew and armament with the Kurganets and Boomerang should make them the safest Russian IFVs ever made and to retain their amphibious capability should make them the best all round vehicles available bar none.

    In answer to the question of what modern armed force has medium amphibious vehicles... the US Marines. Razz

    I think your abve statement is contradictory , if Amphibious capability is not a priority how come medium/heavy vehicals are amphibious ?

    Read it again now that it has been corrected...



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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am

    When I mean Modern Western I meant Modern and Operational like Boxer.

    What i wanted to know was do these Western IFV maintain Amphibious capability because if they didnt India wont find much use for it.

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:22 am

    Sorry, I can't help you there... I don't really follow western weapons development... apart from the main vehicles like the Bradley and the Warrior, which I know are not amphibious, I don't know much about western developments in that regard.

    Once thing you should keep in mind however is that we are not talking about IFVs, we are talking about the whole family of vehicles, so when a previous Russian brigade bowled up to a river it generally had to scout for the depth and good entry and exit points before crossing as its tanks would need to snorkle.

    With medium brigades having Kurganets or Boomerang vehicles for every role they should all just be able to turn on their bilge pumps, lower their trim plates and drive straight in to a river of any depth or river bed surface type.

    The same for the Medium Boomerang brigades.

    Even assuming these western IFVs and APCs have amphibious capability the MBTs they will be operating with will not and in most cases will have to wait for an engineer unit to build them a bridge.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:50 pm



    Western latest (after 1990) trends in IFV's technical requirements and construction's philosophy has nothing to do with innovation but with the quick shift into focus of optimization for regional COIN operations, mostly in urbanized areas.



    Requirements of the latest IFV in western counties ,in facts, has been relieved from the historical task to slow down ,for what was possible, overwhelming Soviet Forces advancing in the Great European Plain in the attempt, at least, to "channel" and concentrate them and allow, in this way, a more efficient employment of tactical nuclear weapons ( obtaining a de-escalation of the conflict).

    Today ,instead, requirements of IFV such as Schützenpanzer Puma, ASCOD Pizarro, CV-90 etc... are dictated mostly by COIN missions against technically inferior opponents which employ mostly guerrilla warfare tactics in urbanized areas ; in this optic the most important features to assure crew's survivability become :

    1) All around protection against AP heavy submachine gun fire
    2) High resilience to RPG fire
    3) High survivability against middle charge IEDs
    4) Good speed and mobility on-road and on compact terrains (to complicate aiming task of ambushing elements armed with RPG and machine guns and reducing time of exposure to enemy fire.
    5) Multispectral sensor suit and integrated data sharing capabilities, to allow combined engagement or avoiding of a potential ambush point detected by a third asset.
    6) Pin point precision engagement capability in the 1500-2000 meters radius circle. (Enemy are almost totally devoid of military class long range ATGMs while ambush fire from defilade in urban environments become habitual)



    Now anyone can realize how IFVs constructed around similar central requirements in a high intensity conflict against a very powerful enemy wouldn't result merely unsuitable but even on the border of the ridiculous.



    The first most critical (even strategic...) requirement of an IFVs for efficiently fight in an high intensity conflict against a symmetric opponent is capability to move unhindered in ANY terrain of ANY sector of the conflict's theatre -both in offensive and ,even more, counteroffensive operations - so to achieve:

    1) Local Force's Concentration Overmatch on enemy forces and ,possibly, insulation of one or more of its components.
    2) Tactical Surprise ,through attacks executed from vectors unexpected or uncovered by enemy formations.
    3) Avoid enemy Fortified Positions ,Minefields and Artillery/Infantry Ambush points.
    4) Actively search open "corridors" to enemy frail supply lines and logistical tail.

    In this regard anyone can realize how ,in a conflict between very strong opponents, real amphibious capability work literally as a strong Force's Multiplier.


    Someone should think how much Schützenpanzer Puma or CV-90....if any.....,with the infantry elements carried , would be present in a particular moment ,in a precise theatre's sector, for attack enemy forces from a particular direction or penetrate in its rearguard or supply lines and, instead, how much BMP-3/3M would be present in the same conditions in a theatre like the following :




    Naturally the opponent would be........China (not some small third world opponent completely uncapable to defend itself Rolling Eyes )
    Someone is surprised that amphibious capability is one of the central requirement of Indian FIFV program ?


    I've leaved out the question of fire power and capabilities to engage any battlefield menace because here the difference become even crushing.

    If i was a troop of an ATGM squads in covered/fortified positions placed on an hill and equipped with TOW and Javelin i would be extremely scared knowing that groups of enemy BMP-3Ms (that can come literally from anywhere ) can stop quietly at 7-7,5 km of distance and saturate at leisure the entire area with an indirect rain of overhead detonating supersonic 3UOF19/E-3UOF19 HE-Frag rounds , advance and engage the remaining fortified positions with Arkan missiles ; all of that from a wide stand-off range Neutral Neutral


    Same situation against enemy Pumas, M3 Bradley or ASCOD with, at maximum theirs auto-cannon’s fire to effectively engage enemy ATGMs squads ?
    Well, i would definitely NOT be in any those vehicles or in one of the infantry squads it carry.



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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:25 am

    Good Post Mindstorm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    1) All around protection against AP heavy submachine gun fire
    2) High resilience to RPG fire
    3) High survivability against middle charge IEDs
    4) Good speed and mobility on-road and on compact terrains (to complicate aiming task of ambushing elements armed with RPG and machine guns and reducing time of exposure to enemy fire.
    5) Multispectral sensor suit and integrated data sharing capabilities, to allow combined engagement or avoiding of a potential ambush point detected by a third asset.
    6) Pin point precision engagement capability in the 1500-2000 meters radius circle. (Enemy are almost totally devoid of military class long range ATGMs while ambush fire from defilade in urban environments become habitual)

    Agreed , Western Military conventionally is more oriented towards anti-Insurgency Operation and their new design reflect those quality which you had mentioned above, Something Indian Army will never face as we dont expect to be fighting in streets of Pakistan.


    The first most critical (even strategic...) requirement of an IFVs for efficiently fight in an high intensity conflict against a symmetric opponent is capability to move unhindered in ANY terrain of ANY sector of the conflict's theatre -both in offensive and ,even more, counteroffensive operations - so to achieve:

    1) Local Force's Concentration Overmatch on enemy forces and ,possibly, insulation of one or more of its components.
    2) Tactical Surprise ,through attacks executed from vectors unexpected or uncovered by enemy formations.
    3) Avoid enemy Fortified Positions ,Minefields and Artillery/Infantry Ambush points.
    4) Actively search open "corridors" to enemy frail supply lines and logistical tail.

    In this regard anyone can realize how ,in a conflict between very strong opponents, real amphibious capability work literally as a strong Force's Multiplier.

    India Pakistan Conflict will be Short and Intense against a Nuclear backdrop.

    We need FICV with good firepower , protection/safety and amphibious capability besides integrating with multispectral sensors and add on armour.

    I am sure a modernised variant of BMP-3 will meet the tracked requirement for wheeled requirement we might have to look at available western types in 25 Ton class.

    I think superav is a good option for IA

    http://www.armyrecognition.com/italian_army_italy_wheeled_and_armoured_vehicle_uk/superav_apc_8x8_iveco_wheeled_armoured_vehicle_personnel_carrier_amphibious_italian_army_italy_tech.html

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:04 am


    I am sure a modernised variant of BMP-3 will meet the tracked requirement for wheeled requirement we might have to look at available western types in 25 Ton class.



    No variant of BMP-3 will meet technical requirements of Indian Army for FIFV program.

    Indian Army must obviously assure that its FIFV will retain operational significance in a future battlefield environment ,therefore the vehicle should integrate the most modern solutions both in the defensive department :

    1) Passive protection (in particular new composites and meta-alloys)
    2) Active protection (APS, soft kill systems )
    3) NBC shielding (in particular new anti-meutron fillers and also....EMP/HP microwave shielding for electronic components)
    4) Multispectral signature reduction (both in-built and through mass-produceable camo-coverage)

    In the offensive department:

    1) Improved medium caliber gun (40 mm or over)
    2) New type of medium caliber munitions, even better if telescopic (capable to engage ANY sub-MBT menace on and over the battlefield )
    3) Stand-off missiles with very high jamming immunity

    In the mobility department:

    1) Full amphibious capabilities
    2) Active suspension systems
    3) Composite transmission
    4) New generation engines (with high specific power and very low fuel consumption)

    In ther vectronic department:

    1) Multi sensor data unification
    2) Sensors working on very wide electromagnetic bands
    3) Capability to process indipendently data stream coming from third part assets
    4) Capability to guide indipendently reconnaissance UAVs


    Therefore India don't need BMP-3/3M ,but it need a perspective IFV built on the same basis principles of BMP-3/3M : a machine designed to fight and win a major war against a very powerful enemy (BMP-3s and BTR-80s was intended and capable to let the bulk of Soviet mechanized infantry to transverse indipendently the English Channel from various points !)



    I think superav is a good option for IA


    Obviously not, here we talk of IFVs Wink

    Amphibious capabilities in vehicles intended to travel at 60-70 km/h in enemy territory engaging and destroying enemy man power, vehicles, C4 bases, airfileds and radars and delivering, in the meantime, assault infantry squads to paralyze and take control of the most important strategic targets in the theatre is ALL ANOTHER THING in respect with a simple amphibious landing vehicle.
    It is not a case that US has canceled EFV.




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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:38 pm

    This is exactly where Rosoboronexport fails to show imagination .

    For the FICV competition it has teamed up with the state run Ordinance Factory Board (OFB) . One of the other contender in this competition is almost knocked out . Now, this is a golden opportunity for Rosoboronexport but yet they fail to capitalize .

    The MoD’s Secretary for Defence Production & Supplies also remains a Board-member of all the MoD-owned DPSUs, his/her loyalty will always be with the DPSUs . So the OFB + Rosoboronexport combination is clear favorite.

    Rosoboronexport should have at least given a visual presentation of their FICV if not showcase a prototype with the promise that initially BMP 3 will be supplied and the FICVs would be supplied within a short period of time .

    This is exactly where the US wins in India . US defense contractors will now tie up with DRDO so that they can participate in this project and make DRDO a partner in a upcoming US FICV project .

    India can only use MBTs or amphibious infantry fighting vehicles like BMP 3 in the desert areas of the Western sector and a few areas of the Northern plain . Against China the high peaks of the Himalayas guarantee that MBTs and infantry fighting vehicles cannot be used . It's NOT without reason that China or India does NOT have any tank regiment in forward position in their borders . China intends to pulverise India's forward position with a barrage of MLRS fire supported by precision artillery fire and India intends to use NLOS - BM to blunt China's edge .

    BMP3/FICVs are therefore exclusively to be used against Pakistan . This is exactly where Rosoboronexport needs to step up the plate and kill the competition before it starts. Now, that was the carrot , where is my stick ?

    Austin
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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:14 am

    Mindstorm wrote:Therefore India don't need BMP-3/3M ,but it need a perspective IFV built on the same basis principles of BMP-3/3M : a machine designed to fight and win a major war against a very powerful enemy (BMP-3s and BTR-80s was intended and capable to let the bulk of Soviet mechanized infantry to transverse indipendently the English Channel from various points !)

    Can you tell me what is the kind of protection level does BMP-3M offers.

    Is it immune to small arms fire from all sides , the frontal protection which is stronger is it immune to 30 mm gun ? What about protection from mine how good is that ?

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:39 pm



    Can you tell me what is the kind of protection level does BMP-3M offers.

    Is it immune to small arms fire from all sides , the frontal protection which is stronger is it immune to 30 mm gun ?

    I image that you talk of resilience to KE penetrators.
    BMP-3 (in its first export version) is impenetrable by vast majority of 25mm and 30mm APFSDS rounds (for angles of incidence 0-30 degrees) for great part of its frontal projection.
    BMP-3M (always exportable version), with add-on armor shields and new laminated alluminium alloy is impenetrable by all type of 25 -30 mm APFSDS in its entire frontal projection and from 12,7 reinforced AP rounds all-around.

    This factor was one of the main catalysing element triggering quick introduction of 35mm guns on several LAVs and extensive researchs on 50mm Supershot, CTA 40 and Super 40 rounds.


    What about protection from mine how good is that ?



    Very ,very limited (several design solutions work even against mine detonation resilience in BMP-3.
    BMP-3 was designed to render very diffcult (or even impossible) for enemy to plan minefield's placement ,through superbe tactical mobility amd full amphibious capability.
    Naturally that would be true in typical offensive/counteroffensive operations in a major war; in COIN operations, instead, where your BMP-3 would execute theirs daily patrols coming from well known HQ bases and on urban roads all change.



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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:23 pm

    Pretty sure BMP-3 front was rated against 30mm AP, not APFSDS.

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:49 pm


    Pretty sure BMP-3 front was rated against 30mm AP, not APFSDS.


    I image that you are not the person at which is necessary to explain the difference in denominations of acronyms between Western and Russian literature....do you know, forgiving this "little" detail, no Russian MBT would have been tested against an APFSDS round..... ever !!! Very Happy Very Happy

    If you have instead some doubts on the figures involved you would be interested to graph at pag 7 Wink



    http://www.kalasnyikov.hu/dokumentumok/cta.pdf



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