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    Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

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    Austin
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    Indian army tanks

    Post  Austin on Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:58 pm

    Evolutionary is better than Revolutionary considering Indian Industry n R&D does not have maturity and capability to deliver any thing radical.

    Even mature defence industry like that of Russia have many many decades of experience have chosen evolutionary path and even Armata has some of its basis on the cancelled T-95 program.

    Garry I agree 55 T is something we should all look at +/- 2 Tons

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    Indian Army (IA) Equipment and News:

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:31 pm

    NEW DELHI: The Army is getting ready to dump its indigenous INSAS rifles, which have suffered from glitches since their induction in 1994-95, in favour of new-generation assault rifles with interchangeable barrels for conventional warfare and counter-insurgency operations.

    The humble foot-soldiers, often forgotten in the race to buy tanks, submarines and fighters, are also slated to get new close-quarter battle (CBQ) carbines, light machine guns (LMGs), specialized sniper rifles and anti-material "bunker-bursting" rifles.

    However, Army chief General Bikram Singh has identified the acquisition of the new assault rifles for the 356 infantry battalions and some other "fighting and support arms" in the 1.13-million force as a "Priority-I" project, say sources.

    Defence minister AK Antony told Rajya the Sabha on Wednesday that the project to replace the 5.56mm INSAS rifles was underway since "technological development has created more superior rifles over the years".

    Sources say five foreign firms — Colt, Beretta, Sig Sauer, Ceska and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) — are in the running to partner the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in bagging the huge project that would eventually cost over Rs 10,000 crore.

    Under it, initially 65,000 rifles will be bought directly from the selected foreign vendor, for an estimated Rs 4,850 crore, to equip the 120 infantry battalions deployed on the western and eastern fronts.

    The OFB will subsequently produce over 113,000 rifles after getting transfer of technology (ToT) from the vendor. The project could become even bigger if the eight-lakh-strong paramilitary forces also induct these rifles.

    "Technical evaluation of bids submitted by the five firms is over. The field evaluation trials will begin in early-2013. The plan is to begin inducting the new rifles by mid-2014," said a source.

    The new rifles, weighing around 3.5-kg, will come with two barrels, apart from night-vision devices, laser designators, detachable under-barrel grenade launchers and the like.

    The primary 5.56x45mm barrel will be for conventional warfare. The secondary 7.62x39mm one will be used for counter-insurgency operations due to "their higher rate of fire".

    INSAS (Indian small arms system) rifles, weighing over 4.25-kg and with an effective range of just 450-metre, had replaced the earlier cumbersome 7.62mm self-loading rifles but they too have now become virtually obsolete. The Army had also been forced to import one lakh AK-47s, apart from using the ones seized in encounters, for counter-insurgency operations in J&K and the north-east.

    The other procurement project already underway involves an initial purchase of 44,000 CQB carbines for around Rs 3,200 crore, with subsequent production of another 1,20,000 by OFB under ToT. "User trials of Beretta, Colt, Sig Sauer and IWI carbines are over now. The induction should begin by early-2014," said the source.

    The process for LMGs and bipod sniper rifles will also kick off soon. The Army wants over 16,000 7.62x51mm LMGs and 3,500 sniper rifles, both with an effective 1-km range, for its infantry battalions to begin with. "The aim is to get light-weight weapons with more lethality and range," added the source.

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    Russia offers India BMP-3 vehicles

    Post  ricky123 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:43 pm



    Russia has offered to transfer BMP-3 combat vehicle technology to India if India cancels its project, an Indian Defense Ministry source said. This has more sense for India, as its homemade Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) can be commissioned no earlier than in ten years’ time.

    The FICV project was approved four years ago and has seen practically no progress since that. It envisages the production of 2,600 vehicles to replace the older BMP-2 combat vehicles. The project costs about ten billion dollars, while the government will fund 80 percent of development costs.

    At the present moment, India has in arsenal about 1,500 BMP-2 combat vehicles.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  TR1 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:22 pm

    1.) That is a pic of BMD-4, not BMP-3.
    2.) Why not invite India to wait a few years and check out the new Russian APCs, instead of BMP-3 now.
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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:36 am

    BMP-3 would probably be ready quicker.

    It all really depends on Indias requirements... if they want to retain amphibious capability and they want it to enter production and service quickly then the BMP-3 is a good choice... especially the BMP-3M model.

    Kurganets-25 on the other hand wont even be finalised till 2015 at the earliest, though it would constitute a whole family of vehicles rather than just an IFV.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Sujoy on Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:01 am

    TR1 wrote:Why not invite India to wait a few years and check out the new Russian APCs, instead of BMP-3 now.

    The Indian Army is in dier straits .

    Going by operational reqmts, there’s an urgent reqmt for 900 new-build tracked ICVs for ferrying fully-equipped infantry soldiers to the tactical battle area. Such ICVs are reqd for accompanying the existing T-90S & Arjun Mk1 MBT regiments. However, there is also a parallel reqmt for some 300 tank-destroyer-cum-armoured recce tracked vehicles.

    Originally, the NAMICA was supposed to fulfil this reqmt, but due to persistent R & D delays involving NAMICA, the Indian Army is giving serious thought to procuring the BMPT ‘Terminator’ off-the-shelf from Russia.

    Therefore, what Russia is proposing are two solutions to plug the IA’s urgent capability gaps: BMP-3 ICV for use as battle taxis, & BMPTs as substitutes for NAMICA.

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:05 pm

    In my opinion India , at reason , will never accept to give up its FICV -Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle- project for production of BMP-3/3M IFV, the technical requirements in play are too different in level and sophistication to allow a similar compromise to happen.

    What instaed i believe possible is a limited purchase of BMP-3M vehicles with limited ToT related to some materials and design solutions aimed at achieve operative buoyancy ( retaining capability to engage enemy targets at long range ) to be eventually integrated in the domestic project.

    That feature, in facts, represent one of the most critical capabilities for vehicles in this class in conflicts between evenly advanced opponents , dozen of times more important and critical ,under a strategical and tactical point of view than some mm of RHA armor or some mrad of fire dispersion ; it allow to dilute enormously enemy force concentration ,both in offensive and defensive operations, to avoid completely majority of enemy's choke points and channeling defensive lines or conduct combined or even insulated landing operations practically anywhere ,quickly establishing defensive or ambush position with the disembarked infantry (naturally greatly aided by the unique fire solution, for vehicles in this class, offered by the 100 mm gun capable to fire 3UOF-19/E3UOF-19 rounds with 3OF70 HE-Frag projectile and "Arkhan" GLGM at typical enemy anti-tanks squad from outside theirs range of engagement ).


    About this last point i believe that would be very useful ,for Indian national security itself, to execute contexually and urgently also a test trial simulating capabilities of infantry anti-tank squads equiped with the latest western-style anti-tanks missiles to repel an attack conducted with BMP-3 class IFVs.

    I firmly believe that the image of infantry squads sitting ,completely powerless, while 20-30 BMP-3/3M IFVs stationed several km outside theirs maximum engagement range (even from open sea or distant river surface !!) procede to saturate with indirect fire of 3OF70 HE-Frag after 3OF70 HE-Frag round a defensive position after the other and with Arkhan missile bunkers ,engineering vehicles, field radars and even enemy IFV -always outside theirs enagagement range- all of that while disembarked infantry ,likely at theris own time armed with Kornet-E or ,worse Kornet-EM and Shmel-M, take position to engage any surviving enemy's element adn to take control of stargical point of interests, will lead Indian authorities at rethink instantly to the real operational value of the acquisition of systems with 2000 m class maximum engegement range such as FGM-148 "Javelin" or Rafael's Spike ATGMs.


    Do you know India has not the luxury to having the chance to select its enemies among third world opponents completely uncapable to defend themselves and armed , in the ssector, at best with downgraded export versions of early models of BMP-1/2 Rolling Eyes .






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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:23 pm

    Going by operational reqmts, there’s an urgent reqmt for 900 new-build tracked ICVs for ferrying fully-equipped infantry soldiers to the tactical battle area. Such ICVs are reqd for accompanying the existing T-90S & Arjun Mk1 MBT regiments. However, there is also a parallel reqmt for some 300 tank-destroyer-cum-armoured recce tracked vehicles.

    It is very interesting you say that because in the 1990s I remember western speculation based on the radical appearance of the BMP-3 that suggested that they might be used as troop taxis, but when they off loaded their troops some could stay and offer direct fire support using their powerful weapons, while a large portion (say half or more) could then be used as a light mobile tank force/ recon unit without their troops that could be used in other areas nearby or even to mount a mobile armoured flank or rear attack on the enemy force the infantry were engaging.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:02 am

    I think the new of BMP-3 sales is likely a red hearing.

    Most comments i heard on BR and DFI seems to suggest that BMP-3 is a bad design when it comes to crew comfort , safety and protection but good in firepower
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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:29 am

    The BMP-3 has a serious design compromise because it was demanded it have heavy front armour and heavy weapons in a turret and it had to be amphibious. This meant the engine had to be at the rear to balance the frontal armour.

    If India doesn't care about the amphibious capability the engine could be moved to the front and a ramp rear door fitted.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:29 am



    BR and DFI seems to suggest that BMP-3 is a bad design when it comes to crew comfort , safety and protection


    BR and DFI suggest ?
    Very interesting...i image that theirs contribution is highly documented ,like theirs highly technical analysis of T-90S...sorry i want to say "tin can" its correct denomination....naturally all authenticated by the "legendary" comparative trial's results invent....cough....cough.....cited by A.Shukla.


    Without any pretense to contradict theirs high technical and supremely documented expertise, let me add only some...naturally completely baseless and absolutely personal point of view.....on safety and protection of BMP-3 adn BMP-3M IFV.


    Let start with a declassified CIA document on the subject (at pag 11 you can find some conservative eximations)

    http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000498688/DOC_0000498688.pdf


    Let continue with implications....naturally equally baseless....of similar defensive factors on very recent development of offensive solutions for LAV's rounds .

    A pag 7 of the fist and pag 13 of the second anyone can find a very explicative graph and image projection ( ostensibly wrote by someone that has no get the luck to study at BR or DFI University) of BMP-3/3M level of protection


    http://www.kalasnyikov.hu/dokumentumok/cta.pdf


    http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009gunmissile/7961leslie.pdf


    Moreover firepower (in particular 100 mm 3OF70 HE-Frag projectile capable to engage ANY western ATGM squad from WELL outside theirs maximum engagement range...Javelin/Spike anyone ?....and Arkhan guided missile capable to engage enemy LAVs and bunkers from outside their area of return fire for not say enemy surveillance UAVs and helicopters) is not its most defining feature , strategical and tactical mobility is likely even more.


    From 6:48 on of this video someone can get a....naturally totally baseless....idea of what said.







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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:15 am

    Mindstorm wrote:In my opinion India , at reason , will never accept to give up its FICV -Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle- project for production of BMP-3/3M IFV, the technical requirements in play are too different in level and sophistication to allow a similar compromise to happen.

    The FICV as of now is completely stalled . TATA had teamed up with Rheinmetall but the later got banned from doing business in India , TATA is now searching for a new partner . That leaves out two JV teams BAE + M&M and Rosoboronexport + OFB .

    It would be good if Rosoboronexport can now sell a limited number of BMP 3 with a few modifications as per Indian requirements and make a proposal to upgrade them to FICV standards in the near future . The BMP 3s can then be sold to another interested party in Asia , Africa or Latin America.


    Mindstorm wrote:will lead Indian authorities at rethink instantly to the real operational value of the acquisition of systems with 2000 m class maximum engegement range such as FGM-148 "Javelin" or Rafael's Spike ATGMs.

    The proposal to buy Javelin has now been shelved as the US was unwilling to transfer full ToT. Also it does NOT make sense to buy a $125K system when you can get two other such systems for the price of one . As far as SPIKE is concerned the staff evaluation is still going on and there are no plans to purchase it yet.

    As on this date the Indian Army has 1400 Kornet E and very soon 10,000 Konkur M and 25,000 Invar missiles are arriving from Russia . Under the ToT agreement another 15,000 Invar missiles will be produced in India .

    Given the current threat scenario this should suffice in the short run.



    Mindstorm wrote:From 6:48 on of this video someone can get a....naturally totally baseless....idea of what said.

    Sorry ...didn't get your point .






    Last edited by Sujoy on Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:34 am

    Nice post Mindstorm , Thanks for clarifying the whole issue , My vote for it.

    I think right now India will be upgrading its BMP-2 fleet to BMP-2M standard with Kornet and EO systems.

    A modified BMP-3 offering logistics commonality with BMP-2 will be only good the way i think

    Modified BMP-2 will serve a long time to come in the IA.
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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:30 am

    Indeed there are many good up-armor packages for BMP-2 that put armor on levels no worse than say Stryker or IFVs in similar weight class.

    BMP-3 is an excellent redo/cavalry vehicle, but the troop compartment is definatly not ideal for role as main IFV.

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:54 am


    Mindstorm wrote:
    From 6:48 on of this video someone can get a....naturally totally baseless....idea of what said.


    Sorry ...didn't get your point .


    Ok i will try to be more explicit :


    See with attention the last part of the video i have pointed out (in particular from 6:57 on). Memorized ? Well.

    Now image for some second to be the enemy. Ok ?
    You must plan and prepare the position of your : mine fields, bunkers, ambushing anti-tank squads, air defense assets, MBTs, IFV, APCs, C4 vehicles and theirs entire...and very frail...logistical tail (maintenance vehicles, fuel vehicles , ammunition charts , engineering support etc..etc..) ,ok ?

    Now if your opponent is equipped with a classical IFV (let put a Striker or a Puma IFV ) you can plan easily the best position and pathway for your LAVs, MBTs, APCs ,both on the offense and in defense, the times for redeployment or counterattack enemy forces in a particular sector and the most efficient placement for any of your defensive assets knowing that vectors of attacks are self-channeled by bridges - for any sector including a river - solid terrain - for any sectors with lakes, marass or swamps- or by the same coast - for any sector with sea coast-.

    In substance the mere absence of a real amphibious capabilities among IFVs of your opponent mean that you can gain easily local force concentration , organize very easily choke points and ambush ,both in offensive and in defensive operations, with your MBTs, IFVs, CAS aircraft ,anti-tanks squads etc.... or force them in minefields or pre-planned "kill-box" area of your Artillery/Air Force.

    Now if you add amphibious capability to all the vehicles of your enemy you will quickly realize that ,both in the offense and in the defense, your forces became effectively diluted over a territorial surface several orders of magnitude greater -your local force concentration effectively collapse- that several offensive/defensive tactics and solutions become totally impracticable and that the possible gaps opened on your frail rear assets and your entire logistical assets become suddenly not coverable


    Clear the concept now Sujoy ?

    Impact of this mobility feature on the same outcome of a conflcit against a very strong opponent is simply critical.

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:55 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Clear the concept now Sujoy ?

    Impact of this mobility feature on the same outcome of a conflcit against a very strong opponent is simply critical

    Appreciate your explanation . Thank You Mindstorm.

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:10 am

    GarryB wrote:The BMP-3 has a serious design compromise because it was demanded it have heavy front armour and heavy weapons in a turret and it had to be amphibious. This meant the engine had to be at the rear to balance the frontal armour.

    If India doesn't care about the amphibious capability the engine could be moved to the front and a ramp rear door fitted.

    So summarise it

    Positive


    1 ) BMP-3 is good frontal protection but side and rear protection is just as good as any of its peers of its generation

    2 ) Has far superior fire power compared to its peers or even current generation ICV

    3 ) Has good Amphibious Capability and Cross Country Mobility

    4 ) The issue of Fuel being dangerous as in BMP-2 has been taken care in BMP-3 by moving fuel to the front and engine to rear.


    Problems


    Crew Comfort is bad as was described by V Popovkin

    http://www.tanknutdave.com/component/content/article/248

    Public Condemnation by Russian General

    In 2010 Russian Gen. Popowkin made a public statement where he criticized the BMP-3 stating that the troops used to ride on the top of the vehicle as the inside was seen as a coffin and that a replacement for the BMP-3 should be developed.


    So how is the crew comfort and safety compromised in BMP-3 ?
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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:01 am

    All armoured vehicles are cramped and hot and dusty in operation... there is nothing in service anywhere that could be called comfortable.

    And the riding on top of a vehicle is normal practise WHEN NOT IN DIRECT COMBAT.

    If you are rolling into enemy territory and approaching an enemy strong point you will either be inside the vehicle or walking with vehicle fire support.

    If you are driving around in places where the biggest threat is land mines then you don't sit inside armoured vehicles because most armoured vehicles offer little or no protection to such threats. Sitting on top you could get lucky and get blown clear or fall clear of the vehicle. You are also more situationally aware and can shoot enemy forces with rocket propelled grenades before they fire, or at least jump clear of the vehicle before it explodes.

    If the threat is snipers then obviously everyone will be inside the vehicle... when the threat is road side bombs or mines then you are safer on top.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:56 am

    The only thing compromised is the exit of the troops over the engine deck.
    Russian troops ride on top of virtually every vehicle outside of combat, even with traditional doors, so it is not due to them being coffins.
    Ofc like most of its peers, the BMP-3 is not designed to protect against large mines or explosives.
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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:58 pm

    The only negative issue with the BMP-3 is that the troops have to walk over a walk way over the rear mounted engine, which means opening roof hatches and rear doors to get out... the presence of the engine in the rear probably offers some protection from small arms and heavy machine gun rounds, though against anti armour rounds your average engine has too many empty cavities and too much flammable stuff like oil and fuel to make good armour. Troops are a little more exposed when getting into and out of the BMP-3 but the arrangement allows much heavier frontal armour and a much more powerful weapons package which in my opinion more than makes up for the awkward entry/exit setup.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:01 pm

    Well Kurganets will dispense of the awkward setup, so it was definitely not a step foreword.
    The setup had more to do with amphibious qualities + rear engine than particularly heavy front armor AFK.
    IMO BMP-3 is an excellent reco and general purpose vehicle, not so much APC

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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:17 pm

    I think with the advancement of armour in 2-3 decades since the time BMP-3 first saw service they can afford to have similar or better armour protection with light armour and can have engine on front.

    Yeah agree getting out of BMP-3 can be awkward and would expose the crew to small arms fire while moving out , so they better be in same safer location while moving out.

    Its more of a design choice that Soviet General would have made , they thought they would want higher firepower and frontal protection without comprmising amphibious qualities and seperating fuel from crew.

    So they compromised a bit on comfort and exposure while moving out
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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:08 pm

    Well Kurganets will dispense of the awkward setup, so it was definitely not a step foreword.

    Kurganets will likely use exotic new materials, plus NERA, plus a new APS and simply be a vehicle that is 7 tons heavier than the BMP-3 to further increase armoured protection for its crew and troops, while having a front mounted engine and for the first time on a Soviet IFV a ramp rear door for rapid exit/entry.

    I would say it will be a leap forward... the IFV model will also likely be very powerfully armed too and its modern sensors and equipment will make it even more capable as a recon platform.

    The setup had more to do with amphibious qualities + rear engine than particularly heavy front armor AFK.

    The issue is balance... the whole vehicle could be made of balloons, but the fact of the matter is that if it is far too heavy at the front the nose will sink into the water and the ass end will stick up out of the water and the tracks will not work to propel the vehicle.

    With the heavy turret in the middle, and the frontal armour right at the front there was no way they could put the engine at the front of the BMP-3 and still have it swim properly.

    The frontal armour of the BMP-3 is not tank level armour but it is still fairly significant and heavy.

    The Kurganets will likely have heavily sloped frontal armour and heavier side armour and the rear ramp door will likely be armoured too to better balance the vehicle.

    IMO BMP-3 is an excellent reco and general purpose vehicle, not so much APC

    Actually it is a near perfect APC... it has good mobility and can quickly deliver troops almost anywhere on the battlefield... it would not be a great vehicle to fight from, but then very few similar vehicles would be that safe either (against a serious enemy). The point is that once you drop off the troops you still have a powerful and flexible vehicle that can be used for a wide range of roles and missions.

    Its more of a design choice that Soviet General would have made , they thought they would want higher firepower and frontal protection without comprmising amphibious qualities and seperating fuel from crew.

    In WWIII all those Bradleys lined up to cross the bridges the engineers have set up will not be safer than those BMP-3s that just turned on their bilge pumps and rolled straight into the river at a shallow point... in Afghanistan it might not mean much but in European Russia there are probably more rivers than roads.


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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:24 am

    So at 25 T will Kurganets will have amphibious capability ?

    Do the more modern IFV from West/Europe like Boxer in 25 T class lacks Amphibious capability.

    I read the BMP-3M that was specifically built for UAE sacrificed Amphibious capability with gain in weight from new engine and electornics
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    Re: Indian Army (IA): Equipment and News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:09 am

    So at 25 T will Kurganets will have amphibious capability ?

    AFAIK both the Kurganets and Boomerang will be amphibious. In fact the Naval Infantry will have a special model Kurganets designed for rough sea states made for them.

    Do the more modern IFV from West/Europe like Boxer in 25 T class lacks Amphibious capability.

    There are no IFVs that are more modern than Kurganets. Amphibious capability is not a priority for NATO forces so most of their medium and heavy vehicles are not amphibious.

    I read the BMP-3M that was specifically built for UAE sacrificed Amphibious capability with gain in weight from new engine and electornics

    Sorry, but I doubt the BMP-3M that the UAE are interested in has lost its amphibious capability because of a heavier engine and heavier electronics. If anything I would suspect the electronics will be lighter in the newer model rather than heavier and a heavier engine that is placed in the rear of the vehicle should actually balance the vehicle better rather than worse.

    I suspect the UAE were not interested in amphibious capability and had that requirement dropped, which would allow even heavier frontal and side and rear armour to be fitted. All the electronics upgraded would probably have made it lighter rather than heavier but the increased armour without worrying about amphibious capability probably has led to the vehicle losing its amphibious capability because it is now unbalanced.

    AFAIK the BMP-3M is fully amphibious for the Russian Military.

    If India wants to take on the BMP-3M then the first thing they need to do is decide if they need that amphibious capability... if they can do without it then they can make a few changes that will improve the vehicle in terms of protection as well as capacity etc.


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:00 am; edited 2 times in total


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