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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:51 am

    Smocky Grigorovitch. Hope its not the engines but fuel that sucks.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/1117721658075295744
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 07, 2019 7:16 pm

    https://news.rambler.ru/army/42139320-fregat-chernomorskogo-flota-admiral-grigorovich-sovershit-delovoy-zahod-v-port-limassol/

    Admiral Grigorivich will make port call to Limassol in next days. It has performed a range of tasks in the Black Sea, a reliable ship with adequate capabilities. M90FRU would be overkill, but I wonder how fast the powerplant meant for Gorshkov could get this baby. Currently, 30 knots with DT-59 (UGT15000R) Zorya engines. With M90FRU maybe speeds of up to 35-37 knots?!?!?
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue May 07, 2019 7:41 pm

    MiamiMachineShop wrote:https://news.rambler.ru/army/42139320-fregat-chernomorskogo-flota-admiral-grigorovich-sovershit-delovoy-zahod-v-port-limassol/

    Admiral Grigorivich will make port call to Limassol in next days. It has performed a range of tasks in the Black Sea, a reliable ship with adequate capabilities. M90FRU would be overkill, but I wonder how fast the powerplant meant for Gorshkov could get this baby. Currently, 30 knots with DT-59 (UGT15000R) Zorya engines. With M90FRU maybe speeds of up to 35-37 knots?!?!?
    even with much older electronics and radars I believe these ships are much more useful than 20380 oversized corvettes.

    however I do not even know if these ships could host the combined diesel and gas turbine power plant meant for gorshkov class without a serious redesign, and in that case, until they have not mastered the serial production of such powerplants, engines for this ships would retard engines for gorshkov class.

    Maybe if the new government of ukraine was less in self destruct mode, and they could get more engines from zorya...

    these ships would also sell like hotcakes in the export market...
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 07, 2019 8:02 pm

    Main propulsion plant of Project 11356 frigates is M7N1, using DS71 (known in Ukraine as UGT6000) as cruising engines, and boosters are DT59 (UGT16000). Efficiency of the latter one is only 30%.

    M90FRU would be paired with M70FRU-2 cruising turbines which are analogues of UGT6000(DS71) cruise turbines of Zorya.

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 30 Image.axd?picture=2011%2F5%2FCOGAG_Talwar


    M90FRU is basically the Russian analogue of UGT 16000(DT-59), and they work in COGAG format as well as CODAG.

    In CODAG(Gorshkov class) they are paired with 10D49 Kolomna Diesel cruise engines.
    I could not find Gorshkov powerplant arrangement, but this is similar, cruising diesels coupled to bigger gearboxes, and M90FR instead of DA91 (this is M55 CODAG)
    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 30 12.M55Rmfcopy

    M70FRU produces 7200 RPM vs 7000 RPM of UGT 6000, temperature output is increased to 506 degrees over 440 degrees for UGT6000. Efficiency is improved by .2%.

    Kolomna 10D49 give Gorshkov 5200SHP in cruise mode. Combined with M90FRU Gorshkov gets to 65,400 SHP

    The DS71(UGT6000) gives 11356 cruising power of 8450SHP. M70FRU-2 offers even more power, This is much better performance than 10D49. With M90FR , 11356 will be faster than 22350. Its speed can approach speeds of 37 knots maybe even faster when the powerplants are ready.

    COGAG > CODAG for speed performance

    CODAG > COGAG for reliability, diesels are workhorses

    No need for Zorya, NPO/UEC will have M90FRU, M70FRU-2, Agregat-DKVP will be new series of MGT. Agregat DKVP will be cruising turbines for LCAC's like Zubr. 11356 will sell like hotcakes when powerplants are ready

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 30 M90FR_gas_turbine_engine_Project_22350_Saturn

    You can see output shaft on M90FR picture, they will couple to input shaft on gearbox which are coupled to prop shaft, and cruising diesels this is for 22350:
    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 30 STnTe4j


    Last edited by MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 07, 2019 10:07 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 07, 2019 9:05 pm

    Isos wrote:Smocky Grigorovitch. Hope its not the engines but fuel that sucks.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/1117721658075295744


    EXHAUST smoke emission from high pressure ratio gas turbine engines currently in service has been reduced largely by attention to fuel air mixing in the combustion chamber. The proportion of produced carbon which can be burned in high temperature regions of the chamber will increase as both combustion maximum and turbine entry temperatures increase.

    Smoke is normal, especially white smoke, the ship looks like its at idle, or switching from LP Turbine to HP turbine, during this process when the ship goes into low idle on DS-71 and switches to DT-59 it will produce smoke due to carbon production in high temperature regions (DS71) which are being powered down and simultaneously DT-59 is powered on.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 08, 2019 10:33 am

    That level of smoke is pretty mild I would think... I mean compared with some Japanese ships and US super modern boats...

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 30 1000w_10

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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 30 Smoky10
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    Post  hoom on Thu May 09, 2019 4:37 pm

    Perfect silhouette
    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 30 08-7479173-orig-154540939166b08a9bbbc105ca975ded5c04698443
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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Thu May 09, 2019 8:54 pm

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 30 4320438_original

    Admiral Istomin, Kornilov and Butakov

    https://www.janes.com/article/84129/india-signs-usd950-million-deal-for-two-russian-built-frigates

    They could chicken out and we could see these in baltic fleet maybe?

    attack
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    Post  GarryB on Fri May 10, 2019 5:51 am

    Would be better if they used the money to buy bigger versions... even if they take a little longer.
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    Post  Tingsay on Fri May 10, 2019 6:01 am

    MiamiMachineShop wrote:Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 30 4320438_original

    Admiral Istomin, Kornilov and Butakov

    https://www.janes.com/article/84129/india-signs-usd950-million-deal-for-two-russian-built-frigates

    They could chicken out and we could see these in baltic fleet maybe?

    attack

    No chance I think.

    India's supposedly better ship, Shivalik class has some major issues (forgot the details) and that is why they are going for Grigorovich.
    Shivalik stopped at just 3 ships without any sanctions like in Grigos.
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    Post  hoom on Fri May 10, 2019 7:01 am

    They had some kind of major drydock incident & 4th is fubarred from rumors -> suddenly the 11356 order firmed up.

    I still say they should put the effort in to get domestic engine/gearbox going and finish 6* for BSF plus new 6* for Pacific/split appropriately as fleets fill with them/other new ships.
    Maybe another 3* allowing for Latakia too. (but that could be part of the re-balancing as new ships are built)


    Last edited by hoom on Fri May 10, 2019 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri May 10, 2019 7:18 am

    GarryB wrote:That level of smoke is pretty mild I would think... I mean compared with some Japanese ships and US super modern boats...

    The level of smoke is not the issue, the issue is if it is black as that means unburnt carbon is coming out of the funnels.  In the case of US and Japanese ships it is a case of incompetent engineers that don't monitor the air mixtures.  In the case of older Russian ships it is lack of maintenance that has allowed carbon buildup.  In the case of newer Russian ships it is the same as the US, incompetent engineers.
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    Post  hoom on Tue May 14, 2019 3:46 pm

    Essen at Istanbul for defense show via reddit.
    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 30 8ww23kkvmxv21
    Interesting that they are apparently starring the missile launchers?!
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    Post  hoom on Wed May 22, 2019 1:14 pm

    Zorya Mashproject has sent 4* turbines 'to India' https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3650451.html
    In March 2019, four M7N-1E gas-turbine units manufactured by the Nikolaevsk State Scientific-Production Complex “Zorya” - “Mashproekt” (two for each frigate, project 11356), with a customs value $ 18.612 million were exported by sea to India.
    Assumption is that they're going to India via Kaliningrad. (or India -> Kaliningrad -> India)
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    Post  kumbor on Wed May 22, 2019 3:56 pm

    Isos wrote:Smocky Grigorovitch. Hope its not the engines but fuel that sucks.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/1117721658075295744

    You mean SMOKEY, for SMOCKY is a kind of a WORKERS SUIT?!
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu May 30, 2019 3:33 pm

    https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/


    Corvettes of the project 20386 called full replacement frigates of the project 11356


    May 30, 2019 at 13:52 Topic: Industry
    In the Russian Navy, the project 20386 corvettes will be able to fully replace the frigates of Project 11356. This was announced on Thursday, May 30, by the head of the shipbuilding, armament and operation department of the Navy Vladimir Tryapichnikov at the ceremony of launching the minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov of the project 12700 (cipher "Alexandrite").

    Multi-purpose corvettes of project 20386 were developed at the Almaz Central Design Bureau. They are intended for conducting combat operations in the near and far sea zone, protection of sea communications and objects of maritime economic activity.


    The ships with a displacement of 3,400 tons (length - 109 meters) will arm the 100-mm art complex A-190-01, two 30-mm gun mounts AK-630M, the “Redut” air defense system, two launchers of the anti-submarine complex “Package-NK” and high-precision cruise missiles "Caliber" (or RCC "Uranus"). Also, the Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter can be based on the corvette.

    The lead ship of the project 20386 was laid at the Severnaya Verf on September 28, 2016. Initially it was called the "Bold", but in 2019 the military decided to rename the corvette to "Mercury" - in honor of the Russian brig. It is planned to be launched in the spring of 2021.

    Now in the Russian Navy, three frigates of the project 11356 are serving - "Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov . The construction of the second trio of ships of this project froze after the disruption of the gas turbine power plants of the Ukrainian enterprise Zorya-Mashproekt. The

    displacement of the frigates of the project 11356 is 4000 tons, the speed is 30 knots, the autonomy of navigation is 30 days. The armament consisted of: A-190 100 mm caliber artillery, anti-aircraft missile and artillery systems, torpedo and anti-submarine weapons, as well as the Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. Deck-based Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopter.
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    Post  littlerabbit on Thu May 30, 2019 10:21 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/


    Corvettes of the project 20386 called full replacement frigates of the project 11356


    May 30, 2019 at 13:52 Topic: Industry
    In the Russian Navy, the project 20386 corvettes will be able to fully replace the frigates of Project 11356. This was announced on Thursday, May 30, by the head of the shipbuilding, armament and operation department of the Navy Vladimir Tryapichnikov at the ceremony of launching the minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov of the project 12700 (cipher "Alexandrite").

    Multi-purpose corvettes of project 20386 were developed at the Almaz Central Design Bureau. They are intended for conducting combat operations in the near and far sea zone, protection of sea communications and objects of maritime economic activity.


    The ships with a displacement of 3,400 tons (length - 109 meters) will arm the 100-mm art complex A-190-01, two 30-mm gun mounts AK-630M, the “Redut” air defense system, two launchers of the anti-submarine complex “Package-NK” and high-precision cruise missiles "Caliber" (or RCC "Uranus"). Also, the Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter can be based on the corvette.

    The lead ship of the project 20386 was laid at the Severnaya Verf on September 28, 2016. Initially it was called the "Bold", but in 2019 the military decided to rename the corvette to "Mercury" - in honor of the Russian brig. It is planned to be launched in the spring of 2021.

    Now in the Russian Navy, three frigates of the project 11356 are serving - "Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov . The construction of the second trio of ships of this project froze after the disruption of the gas turbine power plants of the Ukrainian enterprise Zorya-Mashproekt. The

    displacement of the frigates of the project 11356 is 4000 tons, the speed is 30 knots, the autonomy of navigation is 30 days. The armament consisted of: A-190 100 mm caliber artillery, anti-aircraft missile and artillery systems, torpedo and anti-submarine weapons, as well as the Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. Deck-based Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopter.
    Replacement?! It looks like this is the end for project 11356 production...at least for Russian Navy. Shocked
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu May 30, 2019 10:39 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/


    Corvettes of the project 20386 called full replacement frigates of the project 11356


    May 30, 2019 at 13:52 Topic: Industry
    In the Russian Navy, the project 20386 corvettes will be able to fully replace the frigates of Project 11356. ............



    Makes sense, 20386 has same range and endurance plus more advanced hull, propulsion and subsystems


    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu May 30, 2019 11:39 pm

    [quote="littlerabbit"]
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/


    Corvettes of the project 20386 called full replacement frigates of the project 11356


    Replacement?! It looks like this is the end for project 11356 production...at least for Russian Navy. Shocked

    It's not a big problem. They want to unify most of the weapon systems and sensors in the new ships.
    Grigorovich are not bad ships, but they have at least one generation older technology than 2038x. Furthermore the 20386, differently from the 20380, will have the endurance for blue water operations.

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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu May 30, 2019 11:57 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/


    Corvettes of the project 20386 called full replacement frigates of the project 11356


    May 30, 2019 at 13:52 Topic: Industry
    In the Russian Navy, the project 20386 corvettes will be able to fully replace the frigates of Project 11356. ............

    Makes sense, 20386 has same range and endurance plus more advanced hull, propulsion and subsystems


    ..plus the 11356 was AFAIK mostly a lower-tech insurance policy against a failed 22350 program. The Gorshkov is a success (even if very late...), so will form the backbone of the future fleet, so its time to close out the Grigs and sell them to India to boost their Krivak IV/Talwar numbers.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 31, 2019 2:10 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:...
    ..plus the 11356 was AFAIK mostly a lower-tech insurance policy against a failed 22350 program. The Gorshkov is a success (even if very late...), so will form the backbone of the future fleet, so its time to close out the Grigs and sell them to India to boost their Krivak IV/Talwar numbers.


    It wasn't even insurance policy, it was improved Soviet design geared for export which was used as last minute backup solution in an emergency

    Gorshkovs are finally up and running and will only be getting bigger which means that 20386 Mercury will be filling the role of medium sized vessel for local anti-sub missions 90% of the time or act as AA support for other ships further away rest of the time (they have extra Redut slots and same range and endurance as Gorshkovs and I doubt it's​ by accident)

    With more Karakurts being ordered soon final setup for Navy size-wise is Karakurts=>Mercuries=>Gorshkovs

    No other sizes in between those




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    Post  hoom on Fri May 31, 2019 1:56 pm

    Same size, same cost & arguably inferior capabilities.

    Fine if they actually start pumping the 20386es out but man nearly 3yrs and an incomplete empty hull is all they have on the 1st is not a good harbinger for quick production.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 31, 2019 1:59 pm

    hoom wrote:Same size, same cost & arguably inferior capabilities.

    Fine if they actually start pumping the 20386es out but man nearly 3yrs and an incomplete empty hull is all they have on the 1st is not a good harbinger for quick production.

    perhaps building first for longer time and remove problems is better then building series then thinking why it doesnt work like Zumwalts
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    Post  hoom on Fri May 31, 2019 2:09 pm

    Yes but they're just building the bare hull at the moment.
    Its a full 3D digital design which should make the actual fitting-out much quicker than conventional, Redut is a known system, Zaslon isn't entirely new now that Gremy is on trials & most of the rest should be containerised -> not need extensive fit-out (but a bunch of trials once complete -> desirability of progressing the construction quickly)
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 31, 2019 2:14 pm

    hoom wrote:Same size, same cost & arguably inferior capabilities.

    Fine if they actually start pumping the 20386es out but man nearly 3yrs and an incomplete empty hull is all they have on the 1st is not a good harbinger for quick production.


    In what way it's not superior? Grigorevich is slapped together with export gear, Mercury is designed around new stuff

    Superior sonar, superior radar, superior AA system, superior propulsion, lower RCS, modular hull, etc... Am I missing something?

    As for build speed it's already much faster than Grigorevich class, in case of fourth Grigorevich we can say it's infinitely faster



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