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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

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    Post  TR1 on Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:58 pm

    Thanks Austin, great read.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:44 am

    Thanks Austin for posting the articles from Military Parade.
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    Post  medo on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:52 pm

    Thanks Austin, great articles.
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    Post  Austin on Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:55 am

    Any time friends , will post more in the coming days as i get some time keep watching this space.
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    Post  medo on Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:49 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0jheHp072wU#!

    Interesting video about development of Russian air defense systems.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:40 pm

    medo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0jheHp072wU#!

    Interesting video about development of Russian air defense systems.


    Thanks. The link you posted is the 4th part of a series.

    The download has started Very Happy
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    Post  medo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:05 am

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 5 42208210

    New photo of tracked Pantsir-S1. Behind is green Pantsir with new search radar, so this photo is of newer date. I don't know if this tracked Pantsir and BMD-4 are from KBP collection or new build for customers. Anyway I hope Russian ground forces air defense will son get tracked Pantsirs in their brigades to work together wit Tor-M2.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:03 pm

    If the photo legitimate (not a photoshop) than it concludes that the tracked pantsir is still alive and might see production.
    I noticed that it has 12 rockets instead of the 8 on previous photos.

    By the way Medo, why would the Army go for both TOr-M2 and tracked Pantsir? Aren't they more or less equivalent?
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:56 pm

    Ok. It is confirmed: the photo of the tracked Pantsir is real.

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 5 4r1d8987

    And a closer look from behind of the wheeled Pantsir with the new search radar.

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 5 4r1d8895

    Remember the first phot of the wheeled Pantsir with the new radar? Here is the ENICS target UAV it destroyed in Kapustin Yar last summer:
    http://www.enics.ru/main/news?idN=139
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    Post  medo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:53 pm

    Thanks for additional pictures. It seems they were prepared there for high ranking visit in KBP Tula. I wonder if this green Pantsir with new search radar is meant for Russian air force.

    Tracked Pantsir have the same turret and same radars as the one on standard wheeled Pantsir, so it for sure have the same capabilities.

    True, Pantsir and Tor-M2 are more or less equal, but still are different. In previous time ground forces also use both Tunguska and Tor-M1. Could be, that they will buy both to get more systems per year, because they are produces in different producers and that they well supplement each other in battle formation and could make electronic warfare against both of them more difficult.
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    Post  TR1 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:55 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:If the photo legitimate (not a photoshop) than it concludes that the tracked pantsir is still alive and might see production.
    I noticed that it has 12 rockets instead of the 8 on previous photos.

    By the way Medo, why would the Army go for both TOr-M2 and tracked Pantsir? Aren't they more or less equivalent?

    Competing factories jockeying for orders.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:48 am

    Actually the Brigade structure of the Russian Army has two air defence battalions ... one is gun and missile (ie Tunguska) and the other is missile only (Strela-10 or Tor).

    I rather expect they will keep this structure and the Pantsir-S1 on a tracked vehicle would be manditory to keep up with tracked units. I rather suspect the TOR will replace Strela-10 (SA-13), though some units might get Morfei based units as well.

    At a higher level they will have BUK, which will likely be replaced by Vityaz/Morfei when that system comes on line.

    The whole point of the Pantsir-S1 system was to make it flexible to be a cross service system, so the trailer version, the truck mounted version, the tracked version and a naval version were all developed for the respective military arms.

    The tracked models are for tracked Army units. The trailer and truck mounted models will likely be used by the Army to defend S-300V4 systems and fixed sites because it is cheaper to buy and operate than the tracked models. The Airforce will also buy the truck and trailer models, with the former having the same wheeled mobility as the S-400 and S-500 units they will be located with, while the trailer models will be set up around fixed sites like airfields and command centres.
    The Navy will use both the ship based system and likely the trailer and truck mounted systems for defending port facilities and S-400 SAM sites and HQs.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:42 am

    I will be surprised if the navy adopts the naval version of Pantsir on the stealthy Frigates and corvettes. The Pantsir system has a poor RCS. It will make sense to have it though on the aircraft carriers as they are not stealthy at all.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:12 pm

    Some new photos from another site: http://mirabilis-ru.livejournal.com/677.html
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    Post  medo on Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:18 pm

    I more think tracked Pantsir will replace Tunguska in army units, while Tor-M2 will replace old Osa, which also need replacement.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:40 am

    I will be surprised if the navy adopts the naval version of Pantsir on the stealthy Frigates and corvettes. The Pantsir system has a poor RCS. It will make sense to have it though on the aircraft carriers as they are not stealthy at all.

    The naval Pantsir-S1s will most likely be fitted to non stealthy vessels like the Kuznetsov upgrade, and Kirov upgrades and Slava upgrades.

    I would think the future of CIWS will be a combination of Duet gun turrets with stealthy enclosures, and Morfei lock on after launch IIR seeking short range missiles.

    With upgrades the Pantsir-S1 can replace both Kashtan and Klinok on large vessels receiving upgrades.

    The number of engagement channels per turret (4), and the engagement envelope... from 2m up to 15km and from1.5km out to 20km means it can tackle a wide range of threats well beyond Kashtan and Klintock... and in some parameters can exceed medium range SAMs like SA-N-7 in terms of lower ceiling and crossing range.
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    Post  Viktor on Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:07 pm

    Well as Im in a little hurry I will write my opinion on this rather harsh report but there are some interesting things also witch suggest TOR-M2/Pancir-S1 will be used together and will not replace each other.

    Well here it is.

    07/04/12 REPORT ON THE SHORTCOMINGS ZRPK "ARMOUR-C1"
    April 7 2012 .
    bmpd.livejournal.com, April 6. From 3 to April 6 in St. Petersburg under the auspices of the Russian Academy of Missile and Artillery Sciences (RARAN) and JSC "NPO Special Materials" held open Jubilee XV-th All-Russian Conference "Actual problems of safety and security." The conference was held in VUNTS Navy "Naval Academy. N. Kuznetsova. "

    One of the participants at our disposal did read notes on the conference report, representatives of an entirely open-air defense of Russia "Evaluation of ZRPK" Armour-S1. "The report's authors - Belotserkovsky VV, Candidate of Military Sciences, Associate Professor (VPVO Air Force) and D . A. Razin (VA VPVO BC).

    The report states:

    Work to create complex "Armour-C1 'held by the" Programme of development of a unified system of antiaircraft missile weapons (weapons) "under the ROC" ZPRK "," Armour-C1 "," Armour-SM "," Redoubt "and" Gladiator. " On the basis of technical solutions ZPRK "Armour-C1 'plan to create interspecies short-range and short range, including the defense ST.

    The main advantages of ZPRK "Patsir-C1 'are the presence of the automatic mode of operation, including in the composition of the subdivision, and the ability to fire at targets up and moving as the cannon and missile weapons.
    However, the developer is not currently addressed the following main problems and shortcomings:

    1) The actual results showed a low-fire testing of fire komplksa possible targets maneuvering and flying with the coursework option for more than 2 - 3 km

    2) confirmed the possibility of shooting at targets flying at speeds over 400 m / s, although the complex is given in the TTX velocity equal to 1000 m / s

    3) The maximum range 20 km provided at air targets flying at speeds of up to 80 m / s (target E-95), as disposable peregruki SAM at this distance does not exceed 5 units.

    4) The main disadvantage is bikalibernoy rocket ***** otstutstvie engine sustainer stage missiles, which resulted in the stated range Zana defeat the missile will move to a negative acceleration of the order of 50-30 m/s2, which leads to the appearance of such non-linearities in the input signal control loop SAM, which lead to errors uvelichaniyu her guidance in the rapidly maneuvering target

    5) is not confirmed by the possibility of complex lesion MAF, TRUNC, and their warheads using hypersonic missiles with a warhead weight 4 kg

    6) the presence of only two methods of targeting missiles ***** (using three points, the method of half-rectification) limit the ability of the complex to engage with different types of EHV difficult conditions (maneuvers, noise, NLTS, hovering helicopters, UAVs, etc. etc.).

    7) management system to undermine the hypersonic warhead missiles, which operates on a signal from ZPRK in accordance with the established difference between the distances between the target and the missile can be effective only when the mouse SAM ****** by full rectification, but when you hover the SAM method of "three points "and half a rectification works only when moving directly to the target shooting fighting machine ZPRK

    Cool in the latter case, the effectiveness of the above defeats the purpose may be low due to the phenomenon ricocheting submunitions chati battle, as in this case the vector of its velocity will be directed at a small angle to the surface of target

    9) does not ensure the effective coordination of military equipment SAM (non-contact sensor field trip purpose, and the NDC area razeta submunitions warhead), and preventing operation of the NDC **** SAM from the surface during firing of NLTS
    10) the impact of weather conditions (rain, fog, hydrometeors) to reduce target detection range for the developed RLSSTSR millimeter wave range is 10-50 times stronger than the version of radar ZPRK centimeter wavelength range, and this deficiency can not be skompensrovan presence ZPRK " Patsir-C1 'opto-electronic channel EC support, because the latter is also a negative depending on weather conditions

    11) large dimensions in the BM ZRPK wheelbase, especially in height (in firing position 5.65 m ), And the lack of armor protection ognekomplekta, apparatus bay (SOC, SSTSR, MSA) do not allow ZPRK at the forefront in the battle, and pre-combat troops disguised orders

    12) BM ZPRK dimensions in the stowed position on the wheel base (4, 374 m ) Does not allow you to transport it by rail, as the allowable loading gauge height (1T) is 3.8 m , And the dismantling of the apparatus bays and loading it into a platform for the transport with the aid of a special valve makes for a BM 3 hours, and requires a spetskrana and accessories.
    Unloading and installation of the equipment compartment for rail transportation require the same labor costs (3:00) and the presence of spetskrana.

    13) dimensions of the BM increased labor costs for technical equipment starting position compared to other SAMs (SAM) army air defense

    14) while translating complex from traveling to combat the use of "ECO Mode" (with a thermal imager) exceeds the stated 5 minutes (actually 8-9 minutes)

    15) at boot time full of ammunition with the TLV is sufficiently large and is 25-30 minutes
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:23 pm

    There have already been several replies to this by PVO guys, lemme find them again and post them.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:30 am

    Well some of the performance problems can be dealt with via Hermes.

    The design of the new Pantsir-S1 missile is unified with the new anti tank missile Hermes, but with a few differences, one of which is that the Hermes will have several terminal homing options including MMW radar, SALH, satellite, and IIR.

    Even very serious problems in guidance accuracy should get the missile fired from a Pantsir-S1 close enough for a nose mounted IIR or MMW radar seeker to detect the target and engage it.

    Of course I am not going to defend the Pantsir-S1 too much because I think having it and TOR is a good idea as they compliment each other... and at the moment both use cheap missiles that can be bought in large numbers and used in training, unlike a more expensive missile with its own built in guidance system that will be destroyed each time it is used.
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    Post  gloriousfatherland on Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:04 am

    Well its a good thing they didn't mention anything about it being able to shoot down stealth aircraft or not shot it down Rolling Eyes
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    Post  medo on Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:21 pm

    Those shortcomings are interesting.

    First of all, Pantsir placed on truck is not meant for ground forces, but for Air force units, so this is not a shortcoming.

    Shortcomings mentioned on testings with aerostats and E-95 drones are actually tests, which we could see on youtube. But I'm sure these are not all tests. It was for sure far more tested in Russia and in UAE, that what we could see on youtube videos and while UAE didn't say Pantsir is not reaching its given capabilities and is buying it (in contrary, they will cancel Pantsir and buy western equipment like Crotale NG or similar) only means that Pantsir is reaching what is meant to reach by given capabilities.

    Shortcomings in missile guidance, this is BS. Missiles are SACLOS guided, they are not IR or ARH. Radar or EO sight track the target and guide missile to it, parameters have no influence with missiles, they are for gun ballistic computer and parameter 2-3 km is for gun armament.

    Weather conditions are the same for all tracking radars, which work little slower to filter rain, but all other is the same.

    4 kg warhead with specially designed fragments is still more than enough for practically all flying targets, but at the end any remaining missile or bomb will be engaged by guns.

    Some shortcomings mentioned with railway transport and loading time are nonsense, because it is not ground forces SAM, but air force SAM and majority of similar systems don't have better times.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:43 pm

    IT all suspiciously sounds like the whole thing was written by someone on the payroll of a competitive design bureau (Almaz, Kupol...).
    Waiting for TR1's translations of comments by PVO guys.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:53 pm

    It is interesting to hear criticism of MMW radar for its reduced effectiveness in bad weather.

    CM wave radar is less effected by the weather and has better range but is much easier to jam or direct anti radiation missiles at. AFAIK there are no ARMs that seek emitters in the MMW band.

    Equally while CM wave radar has longer range it does not have the definition to see the shape of ground targets like MMW radar does.

    In terms of night and all weather capability the Pantsir-S1 with CM and MMW radar plus thermal and digital optics is very well equipped to engage a range of targets.

    In comparison the Sosna-R generally only has thermal and optical systems and laser beam riding guidance.

    Note the huge jump in guidance accuracy for Kornet-EM is probably directly related to both the Pantsir-S1 and Hermes and Kornet all being KBP products and a significant reason for the doubling of range was the increase in precision in guidance for the auto tracker and optics.
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    Post  medo on Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:00 am

    Tracking radar in Pantsir is quite big and modern digital PESA radar, no smaller or weaker than RBE2 PESA radar on Rafale, which have range of 80 km, so I think radar is powerful enough to filtered heavy rain out and work effectively in its given range of 28 km.

    Radio guiding SACLOS missiles are no different than laser guiding SACLOS missiles even in radar mode of working, so I really don't understand what kind of critics they want to give with parameter, which is important for gun ballistic computer, so I have a feeling they are not knowing exactly what they are talking about.
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    Post  Viktor on Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:41 pm

    What borders me most is idea that Pancir-S1 can not shoot down anything flying faster than 400m/s such is HARM for example.

    With its radar and 1000m/s missile I sow no problem dealing with HARM like threat.

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