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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

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    GarryB
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:18 am

    Nice find!

    If it is for Morfei then this might be used for both Morfei and Vityaz as a combined sensor package. To be effective the radar would need to see at least 150km to 200km for targets as the long range Vityaz missiles can reach 120km already.

    If that is the case this sensor mount could be used for naval Vityaz/Morfei and the equivelent land based system too.

    The optics remind me of Palma and Sosna sensor balls so it might be a multifunction system designed to support a range of weapons.

    I think the time of one sensor for one system might be over for the Russian Navy... it was good for each system to have its own separate guidance as there would be no conflicts of use, but it would mean more compatibility issues and of course extra weight and the space with good fields of view is limited in addition to problems of mounting lots of heavy moving antenna high up on a ship is never a good thing. This seems to have fixed radar antenna and a very small moving optics ball... do you know if it has radar antenna on all four sides or just three (if the latter perhaps this is mounted at the front of the ship and another with a rear facing radar antenna is fitted aft...)

    It clearly seems to be AESA... with quite small elements.

    Wonder if it is a real system or a model.

    And name for the system?

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Austin on Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:14 am

    Garry we dont know the name of the system but radar is from Phazotron and EO is Sphere-02 gyrostabilized optic-electronic observation device

    http://www.eng.npo-karat.ru/catalog/11-5/

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:16 am

    Clearly separate products mounted together so they can both benefit from good fields of view up high somewhere.

    Makes sense.

    I would expect that in an air defence setup the EO ball would be used to ID targets detected with a radar as it would not be good for search functions.
    (ie it would take too long to give a 360 degree scan of the airspace around the ship so a threat could close in and hit the ship without the ball ever looking in the right direction in time... It would make rather more sense to use radar to detect targets and then use this optics ball to have a closer look in TV or IR to ID the target... and AESA with 4 antenna covering 360 degrees could scan in every direction around the ship in less than half a second if you want to... anything it detects of interest the EO ball can be directed to have a closer look.)

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:02 pm

    It is clear, that Sphere-02 have enough windows for day TV, thermal imager, laser range finder, IR missile locator and laser missile guidance system. In combination with AESA radars, this FCS complex could actually work with different type of air defense missiles, like radar guided missiles (ARH, SARH), IR guided, radio guided (radar could send radio guiding signals), laser guided missiles and at the end also CIWS guns. It all depends on the programmed parameters in its computers.

    As it use naval Sphere-02 EO ball and is shown in naval exhibition, this could be a ship based system placed on a place of search radar for Kashtan CIWS. But this doesn't mean, this complex could not be used in land based air defense. It could excellently work with SHORADs like Morfei, Pantsir, Tor-M2 or older as well as AA guns like Sosna with Sosna-R missiles or maybe Shilka in closed loop and could make them effective C-RAM system.


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:37 am

    Indeed the fact that it is not type specific suggests it has more potential rather than less.

    Following reductions and limitations of systems to reduce the types in service there might be a bit of a fight to narrow down the types of systems used to make it easier to manage and operate.

    The positioning high up in the mast however suggests to me that it might be more intended as an independent surveillance device that is quite widely deployed on relatively small boats and up to larger vessels too.

    The combination of IR and radar would be more expensive than just radar alone but the combination of capabilities makes it far more potent than when used alone or separately.


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:25 am

    I personally more think this complex will be both in one, air space surveillance and targets engagement as FCS system for air defense unit on ship or on ground. If it is only for surveillance, than EO ball doesn't need so many windows and could use cheaper ball with only TV and TI in it. AESA radar for sure could do both air space surveillance and target tracking with missile guidance. Also EO ball could do visual ID as well as tracking target and missile guidance in passive mode or in heavy jamming. That way could reduce number of radars on the ship and consumption of energy, what could make ships cheaper and same or more effective as they are now.

    This complex on the photo is seen relatively small and could be placed on ship mast or on truck or tracked vehicle in the place of turret for land version. We will see in what direction development will go.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:01 am

    Watching some of the videos of its use on the page Austin posted it seems most likely to be mounted on the mast of a ship and would be used in lieu of a pair of binoculars on the deck of the ship.

    The high magnification plus night and all weather capability would make it much better than binoculars on a ships deck especially if fully stabilised and well above sea spray height, with the added bonus of laser range finding capability.

    Just looking at the number of optics windows I would assume that the two large windows will be the Thermal and Digital optics cameras, while the remaining four optical ports are less obvious.

    The yellow sticker warning of laser radiation and the videos showing range to locked targets clearly suggest a laser range finder. This requires two optical ports, one to send the laser beam and one to detect the returning beam.

    The remaining two optical ports could be II and colour lower magnification ports, or they could include a laser beam for guiding laser beam riding missiles.

    It is perfectly possible that if it has laser ports incorporated into it that it could be used as an independent targeting system, so that for instance on a small patrol craft with a new 57mm automatic cannon that has an integrated optics system for lasing targets, if multiple targets appear the guns ability to fire several hundreds of shells per minute would not be matched by its laser systems ability to lase multiple targets at once so improved performance could be gained by perhaps facing the optics for the gun to one side of the ship to engage a threat and the mast mounted system at targets on the other side of the ship and have the gun fire a burst to each side to enable multiple targets to be engaged at once without needing radar emissions.

    You could probably have 2-4 of these optics turrets around the masts of the ship displaying their information on large screen displays on the bridge to give much better situational awareness for the captain... no more sneaking up on a ship even in harbour in a speed boat loaded with explosives...

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:45 am

    You are correct, higher this EO ball is placed, better visibility it have could see low flying or surface objects on longer distance. So the mast of the ship is proper place for it as well as for radar. Anyway, this complex could do a lot of functions and could be integrated with almost all weapons on the ship.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:36 pm




    A new modification of Pantsir-S1. It looks like testing of new type, maybe AESA, of Janus face search radar. It seems it also have RWR detectors like those on Mi-28N or Ka-52 helicopters and IFF system under the main radar antenna. Anyway interesting picture. Time will tell if this new radar is for Pantsir-S1 or it is only test bed for a totally new system. I hope we will soon read something about its caracteristics.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:06 am

    Perhaps this is a command module with an AESA radar that searches 360 degrees in some LPI mode that detects targets and passes target data to other vehicles in the unit and up the command chain?

    It should have much better performance against low flying and small RCS targets and its continuous 360 degree coverage will make it much harder to sneak up on or hit.

    Twin AESAs that size will not be cheap yet looking at it it seems to have the same folding down arrangement as the standard search radar and seems to have some sort of protection plate above where the guns would be, presumably to protect the radar from empty shell casings flying around.

    Of course they are currently putting the new naval version into service... perhaps this is testing of that system?

    Of course we could speculate all day... good find... very interesting.

    Note in this photo the older model does not have the small cabin directly behind the truck cab so this system might have more radar operators or more electronics:







    Just looking at the three images above I would say the side door behind the truck cabin is only on one side and is wrong in the drawing, but I still get the impression that the area behind the cabin for electronics and crew is slightly larger in the new vehicle.

    Such a back to back radar design suggests offering better coverage with more range.

    You can't just spin a radar around as fast as you like... you need to give time for the radar signal to go out and reflect and come back so by putting radar antenna back to back you double the rotation speed and improve air coverage which is important for long range and high speed targets that need rapid radar updates to keep a close track on them.

    If you have a HARM coming in at mach 3 detection is simply not good enough, you need to track it to see its precise path through the air so its future position can be calculated and interception points determined rapidly. At such a speed even a minor turn can shift an interception point by kilometres in fractions of seconds... but the point is you don't know where to shift the interception point till the turn or speed change or both has been completed... which means continuous calculations of predicted locations for the missile need to be generated in real time. With double faced spinning radar you detect targets much earlier so you can direct tracking radars which give you a continuous and more precise track of the targets manoeuvres so the missile launched to intercept the target has the most precise information about where the target will be when it gets there and if there is a change that the missile control computer takes the new interception point information and generates flight manoeuvre control commands to send to the missile to redirect it to get it to the new interception point at the right time.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:05 am

    Just looking at the three images above I would say the side door behind the truck cabin is only on one side and is wrong in the drawing, but I still get the impression that the area behind the cabin for electronics and crew is slightly larger in the new vehicle.

    Actually Pantsir have doors on both sides for crew, that they could be quicker inside or outside.



    Of course they are currently putting the new naval version into service... perhaps this is testing of that system?

    I also think this could be a testbed for a new radar, because this radar was never seen before. I doubt this radar could be serial one for foreign customer. It will be interesting to see if this radar will be part of new Pantsir modification or it is for a new SAM system and this Pantsir is only testing platform. It will be also interesting to see if this radar is in any correlation with new naval version.



    It should have much better performance against low flying and small RCS targets and its continuous 360 degree coverage will make it much harder to sneak up on or hit.

    I think here could be the answer, why there could be on top left and bottom right of main radar antenna RWR detectors. Maybe those RWR detectors could detect AESA radar on longer distance than radar could detect stealth plane. Radar could also compare datas from both sensors and if there is a bee using AESA radar, than this could be F-22 or F-35.



    It seems on the photo, that there are at least two more Pantsirs around this one, but we could not see, what type of search radar they have.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:52 pm

    A very valid point... the fact that the system has other antennas and sensors suggests it is more capable of detecting a wider range of threats than the old radar or the newer radar that just looks like a big box.

    A careful look at the antenna mount itself suggests to me a large angled flat antenna as a search radar and a wide rectangular panel across the bottom of each radar face.

    I understand in the S-300 system they use a similar arrangement for search radars with the lower panel being a data link to other vehicles to share data.

    This suggests to me that it is a land based prototype because a ship based system would obviously use more secure and high data rate fibre optic cables to connect to main radars and systems in the command module.

    Certainly zooming in close it retains the guns as you can see the shell ejection system to throw empty shells clear of the turret during firing.

    AESA radars are expensive and, while capable, putting them on every vehicle would be a little redundant and expensive.
    Fitting the command vehicle with this radar, if it is an AESA radar would make sense with the other vehicles in the regiment fitted with the box radar antenna.

    I think here could be the answer, why there could be on top left and bottom right of main radar antenna RWR detectors. Maybe those RWR detectors could detect AESA radar on longer distance than radar could detect stealth plane. Radar could also compare datas from both sensors and if there is a bee using AESA radar, than this could be F-22 or F-35.

    RWR are always useful because they warn of the presence of a threat so other sensors can be used... remember this radar antenna/structure is not a tracking radar... it just needs to detect a threat and hand over target data to the tracking system... the tracking system might be mmw radar or cm wave radar or thermal sensors or the combined data from a dozen passive sources all combined to give real time 4 dimensional data.

    Another point... this system is clearly designed for 8 ready to fire missiles and guns so perhaps this is the Tunguska replacement on a truck chassis? Is this the Tunguska for the light brigades (wheeled air defence vehicle?).

    There seems to be an optical pod on the turret roof too.

    Also those four large holes in the lower sides of the antenna seem strange. Cooling air intakes with vents along the top of the radar to allow hot air to rise in a natural circulation system of cooling?

    Interesting.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:10 pm

    Another point... this system is clearly designed for 8 ready to fire missiles and guns so perhaps this is the Tunguska replacement on a truck chassis? Is this the Tunguska for the light brigades (wheeled air defence vehicle?).

    There seems to be an optical pod on the turret roof too.

    Also those four large holes in the lower sides of the antenna seem strange. Cooling air intakes with vents along the top of the radar to allow hot air to rise in a natural circulation system of cooling?

    For me it look normal Pantsir turret with standard guns, 12 missiles launchers, EO system and tracking radar, only search radar is replaced with new one.

    Considering that there is more antennas in one place, than additional cooling is necessary.



    This suggests to me that it is a land based prototype because a ship based system would obviously use more secure and high data rate fibre optic cables to connect to main radars and systems in the command module.

    I agree here with you. Ship version is for sure that in another photo with 4 AESA radars placed in a type of pyramid, because ship have enough power supply. Land based system doesn't have enough power from its generator to supply 4 search radars, 1 tracking radar, EO system, computers and other components, so this could be a compromise with rotating Janus faced radar antenna.




    AESA radars are expensive and, while capable, putting them on every vehicle would be a little redundant and expensive.
    Fitting the command vehicle with this radar, if it is an AESA radar would make sense with the other vehicles in the regiment fitted with the box radar antenna.

    I agree here. But usually command vehicle is battery command post which have battery search radar and it is not missile launcher. Pantsir have that kind of command post although there is no pictures of it. Also command post could have pyramid type of search radar with 4 AESA antennas, because it have enough power supply for it comparing to missile launcher.

    This radar is placed on missile launcher. I wonder if they also replace tracking radar with newer one, which could make sense to get capabilities against new types of targets. In other way I don't see a sense to replace existing PESA radar, which is good enough for targets, for which Pantsir is build.




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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:12 am

    Ship version is for sure that in another photo with 4 AESA radars placed in a type of pyramid, because ship have enough power supply.

    That four panel AESA radar with the optical ball I suspect would also be mast mounted because for small corvettes the positioning of the CIWS means that they rarely have full 360 degree views. For example a system mounted at the front of the ship in front of the main deck but behind the main forward gun will have excellent forward arcs of fire but the main deck right behind it will block the rear facing radar antenna. A system mounted on the side of a ship will have forward and aft and the whole side between but the ship behind it will block its view of the other side of the ship.

    Probably the best solution for a naval system is to use an external radar system like the ships main radar or a couple of mast mounted setups like the system shown above with only a tracking radar and optics on the weapon mount itself.

    I agree here. But usually command vehicle is battery command post which have battery search radar and it is not missile launcher. Pantsir have that kind of command post although there is no pictures of it. Also command post could have pyramid type of search radar with 4 AESA antennas, because it have enough power supply for it comparing to missile launcher.

    You mean like the PPRU-1M-2?
    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-ADCP-CP.html#mozTocId714630

    The box shaped radar on the PPRU-1M-2 looks like the search radar on the later model Pantsir-S1 vehicles (before the new Janus model).

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:55 am

    You mean like the PPRU-1M-2?
    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-ADCP-CP.html#mozTocId714630

    The box shaped radar on the PPRU-1M-2 looks like the search radar on the later model Pantsir-S1 vehicles (before the new Janus model).

    Yes, like PPRU-1M-2 for tracked version or placed on truck for wheeled version like FGR for Roland. I think Pantsir have this battery CP with larger PESA radar placed on the same Kamaz truck. Unfortunately I don't have any picture of it.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:09 am

    For the light brigades and medium brigades and heavy brigades I rather expect the air defence vehicle will be the Pantsir-S1 system mounted on each of the families of vehicles respectively.

    Likely the only truck based systems will be for the Air force and Air and Space defence forces.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:44 pm

    Absolutely, Pantsir placed on Kamaz trucks is for Air and Space defense. Army units will receive Pantsirs on tracked or wheeled armored vehicles. I only wonder of wheeled armored vehicle will be the same as for Tor-M2.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:04 am

    I suspect the point of creating families based on the vehicle types of Kangaroo, Kurganets-25 and Armata is that the air defence vehicle for each type of brigade (light, medium, and heavy) will use the respective weight class family vehicle.

    This suggests to me that the wheeled version will use the 25 ton Kangaroo wheeled chassis... and if they keep TOR then it will use the same chassis too.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:59 pm

    It is true, that there is for sometime no news about Tor-M2, although it was reported, that army will receive them this year. Tor-M2 and Pantsir-S1 are similar in their caracteristics and both have one advantage comparing to the other. Pantsir have guns, Tor have cold vertical launch. It only depend which caracteristic you need more in given environment.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:41 am

    I suspect a Pantsir-S1 system will mainly use its guns when reloading missiles as most of the time it will want to hit targets at max range and with being able to guide missiles to 4 targets at once I don't think even 12 missiles will last for too long.

    In units with BMP-3M vehicles with good thermal sights and auto target trackers I would think TORs would be fine as the late model TOR has a missile range of 20km and 12-16 missiles ready to launch.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:49 pm

    True, Tor-M2 and Pantsir-S1 are in the same class by their capabilities. It is interesting for me, that Tor-M2 was not offered to Air force and airspace defense units, only for army units, while Pantsir is also meant to be in army units, not only in airspace defense.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:21 am

    AFAIK the TOR system is linked to the S-300 and S-400 in the shorad role because of its anti guided weapon capability in regard to anti radiation missiles and cruise missile defence capabilities.

    The TOR is a very expensive system and has a sophisticated 3D search radar and phased array tracking radar that is very capable and very expensive. Even a nontracked model will not be cheap... though obviously over the life time of the vehicle the savings will be significant.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:32 pm

    http://lenta.ru/news/2011/08/09/morphey/

    It seems a prototype of new Morphei SAM system could be shown on MAKS 2011.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:38 am

    Excellent.

    The fact that they will be showing Morfei also suggests they might show other projects too...

    BTW I was reading some more about the the naval Pantsir-S1 and the navy official said they were going to replace the OSA/Klintok class missiles in Navy service.

    So the new system will replace SA-N-4 and SA-N-9 systems.

    Makes sense to me as they offer a very low altitude intercept capability of 2m above the waves out to 20km.

    Interestingly this also suggests improved accuracy because the older missiles have proximity fuses set to about 5m which clearly can't be the case if it can hit targets 2m above the water.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:Excellent.

    The fact that they will be showing Morfei also suggests they might show other projects too...

    BTW I was reading some more about the the naval Pantsir-S1 and the navy official said they were going to replace the OSA/Klintok class missiles in Navy service.

    So the new system will replace SA-N-4 and SA-N-9 systems.

    Makes sense to me as they offer a very low altitude intercept capability of 2m above the waves out to 20km.

    Interestingly this also suggests improved accuracy because the older missiles have proximity fuses set to about 5m which clearly can't be the case if it can hit targets 2m above the water.



    I'm sure they will not install any new OSA or Klinok SAM system in any new ship, but newer naval Pantsir and naval version of Morphei ans Vityaz systems. But I doubt they will replace Osa and Klinok on existing ships with Pantsirs. I think new Pantsir could replace old Kasthan, while Osa and Klinok have radar stations and missile launchers on different places and Klinok is also vertical launched missile (naval Tor). Osa is too old system and is now two generations behind and it is a waste of money to work with them, but Klinok could be modernized to Tor-M2 level, which is no worse than Pantsir with similar capabilities.

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