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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

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    medo

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:37 pm

    I think both, Pantsir-S1 and Tor-M2, are same capable and could do the job of Morphei with longer range missiles. OK, Tor-M2 is for ground forces, so they are not concurrence here. Maybe Pantsir and Morphei will have different roles in air and space defense, where Pansir as mobile system, which could fire on the move will work with S-400 and Vityaz and protect them on the move, while Morphei will work more stationary (VLS) and will have to protect important point targets like radar stations, CPs, airfields, bridges, etc. Morphei will have to hit any bomb or missile, which fly to protected object.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:27 am

    i just wonder since Pantsir-S1 is such a capable system , why do they need to waste money building Morfei system , just upgrade the Pantsir-1 Missiles and Guns and make it usable for all 3 service.

    Pantsir-S1 is a long bulky two stage missile that would not suit internal carriage on a 5th gen fighter.

    It is also very simple and cheap which makes it an excellent missile because it means you can produce it in enormous numbers and actually use it during testing and exercises.

    Standard practise in the west with expensive missiles is for everyone in the unit to train and practise on simulators and the soldier with the best performance gets to fire off a live round.

    With SAMs you can use missiles without warheads and drones with telemetry equipment to measure how close the missile gets to the drone, but obviously a direct hit will demolish a drone through pure kinetic energy... using real but obsolete cruise missiles as targets means real practise against real targets.

    Very simply however in many ways you can think of Morfei and Pantsir-S1 as being different systems with different goals.

    In the air and on the water and on land the Morfei is primarily to protect the vehicle that carries it and things in its very immediate vicinity like an HQ or Radar etc.

    The much longer range and altitude of the pantsir-S1 makes it an area SAM with decent altitude capabilities while retaining low cost missiles.

    In practise the difference is shown in the Air Force use... the Morfei will equip fighters for self defence, while Pantsir-S1 will defend air bases, other SAMs, and in its HERMES form it will equip attack helos and CAS aircraft.

    At sea it has the potential to replace Kashtan-M and Klintok, but in practise I think upgraded Klinok might be replaced with a combination of the short range (40km) Redut missile and the short range Morfei missile... the late model Klintok can reach targets at 18-20km which means helos and fixed wing aircraft with short range missiles like Hellfire and Maverick can be engaged along with the missiles, but with Morfei you can probably engage a wider range of incoming threats, while the 40km range Redut missile can hit aerial launch platforms even further out.

    Of course with the Redut launcher including the two small S-400 missiles (120km and 40km range) plus Morfei, you could load a combination of all three missiles to suit the likely conditions, whereas Klintok and Pantsir-S1 are less flexible, though certainly capable at what they do.

    Morfei will not be cheap. (I mean missile wise, it will have an initially expensive seeker and new thrust vectoring nozzle rocket motor plus datalink). Klintok (which is TOR) and Pantsir-S1 have very cheap simple missiles that can be made in huge numbers.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:57 pm

    Russian Air Force to get 60 air defense systems in 2012


    The Russian Air Force is planning to acquire about 60 new and modernized air defense systems in 2012, Air Force spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Thursday.

    “The new acquisitions include S-400 long-range air defense missile systems, Nebo-U radars and Pantsir-S1 short range missile/gun systems,” Drik said.

    The Air Force will receive up to 10 Su-34 Fullback fighter-bombers, about 10 Su-25SM Frogfoot attack fighters, and an unspecified number of Su-35S Flanker-E multirole fighters.

    The Su-35S is Russia’s advanced “Generation 4++” fighter.

    New acquisitions will also include over 20 attack helicopters, such as the Mi-28N Night Hunter and the Ka-52 Alligator, as well as “highly modernized” Mi-35 Hind helicopters.

    The Air Force will also receive about 30 Mi-8 transport and five Mi-26T heavy lift helicopters.


    http://www.en.ria.ru/news/20111201/169210478.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:39 am

    So although they lost the PVO portion of their forces, they will still retain SAMS and radars and presumably interceptors?

    This will mean each Russian unit will have two air defence structures... the local district service based structure, and the VKO.

    So an Army unit of Engineers working on a bridge will have an Army air defence unit protecting them while they work, but might also have VKO units protecting it, if it is strategically important enough.

    The interesting thing would be if the bridge they were building was across a river that divided two districts, which might cause issues about whos SAMs can cover what airspace for the Army, but as the VKO operates over the whole country it has no operational boundries to worry about.
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    medo

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:17 pm




    It seems Russian air force will get Pantsirs with new Janus faced search radar.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:34 pm

    I wonder how this new AESA radar folds out of the way when not in use and when it is to be air cargoed?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:48 am

    I would suspect it simply folds backwards to the horizontal like the previous models did.

    This should be a huge improvement in tracking performance... they will likely use one of these vehicles in each unit to improve surveillance performance.

    Obviously the only advantage is in tracking more targets and keeping a more precise track on them as the track will be updated more regularly.

    A fixed 4 face array on the other hand could have replaced the tracking antenna and greatly increased the number of missiles guided to targets at one time.

    This is however a tracking radar, and not a tracking and guidance radar, and still relies on mechanical steering.

    Nice pic... thanks for sharing.
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    medo

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:06 pm

    Search radar will be stored horizontally behind the turret in the same way as previous radar was. There is enough space for that. Interesting is, that in every corner of radar is small antenna, which looks like RWR sensor on Ka-52 or Mi-28. Maybe they also increase passive detecting capabilities for search radar, what means Pantsirs inside battery could passively triangulate all stealth targets, which use any emitter or in heavy jamming could triangulate source of jamming without turning radar on.

    I think this new search radar will have better capabilities against very small RCS and fast targets, that Pansir could be also used as C-RAM system.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Austin on Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:00 pm

    Russia to Receive 30 Vityaz Air Defense Systems by 2020

    The Russian Air Force will receive over 30 Vityaz and 100 Pantsir-S air defense systems by 2020, spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Monday.

    “We are planning to acquire by 2020 more than 100 short-range Pantsir-S and over 30 mid-range Vityaz systems to rearm air defense units,” Drik said.

    Pantsir-S is a short-to-medium range combined surface-to-air missile and antiaircraft artillery system designed to protect point and area targets.

    It carries up to 12 two-stage solid-fuel surface-to-air missiles in sealed ready-to-launch containers and has two dual 30 mm automatic cannons that can engage targets at a range of up to 4 km.

    The Vityaz is expected to replace the outdated S-300PS systems, whose service life is coming to an end in the next two years.

    The Vityaz will complement the Morfey, the S-400 and the S-500 air defense systems in the future aerospace defense network to engage targets at ranges from five to 400 kilometers, and at altitudes from five meters to near space.
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    TR1

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:53 pm

    Only 100? Is that 100 additional unit to what has already been delivered?

    EDIT: I need to read more carefully, more than Smile.
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    medo

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:27 pm

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120123/170906930.html

    Russian air force will receive 30 Vityaz systems and 100 Pantsir-S1 up to 2020.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:23 am

    Excellent.

    By Systems I assume they mean batteries...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:42 am

    I would assume they mean Batteries when they say systems.

    That means 600 vehicles with guns and missiles plus a battery radar vehicle to support operations.
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    TR1

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:57 am

    Not a chance in hell they are acquiring 600 Pantsir vehicles before 2020 (or ever). Need is simply not that large anymore.

    Over 100 units just for AD unit defense isn't bad though.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:22 am

    There will be more than 100 S-300/S-400/S-500 batteries in operation by 2020, and each battery will not have a single vehicle of Pantsir operating with it... it will be at least one battery.

    Also keep in mind that the VKKO, the VVS, and the Army will all be using Pantsir-S1. Even the Navy will be using it too.

    The UAE ordered 50... do you think Russias needs are about double that of the UAE?

    According to Wiki under the Pantsir-S1 page under the users section it says:

    Will begin entering service with the Russian Air Force and the first deliveries began in 2008. It will eventually replace the Tunguska-M1 currently used by the Russian Air Force.[15] Russia currently operates some 31 units of the Pantsir-S1, rounding out by 2016 to roughly 300.

    By units I assume it means vehicles and therefore 300 vehicles by 2016.
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    TR1

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:29 am

    That's fairy tales, no way they can even produce 300 for Russia alone by 2016. So far there have been between 10-20 delivered to combat units. Such a big order would not escape notice anyways, given the big deal made over the first batch handover.

    Regarding Navy using it, that;s not certain by a long shot. The proposed naval Panstir was basically the producers commercial, not anything currently existing or planned as far as we know.
    Big question if army intends to order it, though that would be easier adoption.

    UAE does have big order, but they don't have nearly the same inventory/purchase plans when it comes to SAMs of lower and high capabilities.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:00 am

    AFAIK the plans are for the Pantsir-S1 to replace Tunguska and Shilka and Kashtan in Army, Air Force, Air Defence Force, and Navy units.

    Air Defence Forces will have plenty of S-400 and S-500 systems around strategic sites and will use Pantsir-S1 as protection for the Heavy SAMs.

    Its ability to engage 4 targets at one time (ie 4 guidance channels) together with the very high speed of the missiles means it would be very difficult to overwhelm the system... especially a battery.


    I am not 100% certain they will meet the figure of 600 vehicles, but 100 vehicles by 2020 would be pathetic and would in no way replace the in service Tunguska let alone Shilka which is still in service.

    They have a target of 70% new stuff by 2020, so unless their total Tunguska pool is currently 150 vehicles then I think the numbers are reasonable.

    I would think production for export will be quite high too.
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    medo

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:37 pm

    I hope so. 100 vehicles in 10 years is quite small number. I'm sure KBP is able to produce around 60 vehicles per year.

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    100 Pantsyr-S1

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:54 pm

    By 2020 Russian procurement plan only for the strategic level of Air Defence sector foresee the deployment of 28 regiments of S-400 ; each of those regiments of S-400 include two or three divisions (the four regiments planned for Moscow's defence will have three divisions each),each of those divisions has 8 to 12 launchers and 6 to 8 transloaders , we talk therefore of a minimum number of S-400 launchers of 448 !
    At that we must add the planned 10 regiments of S-500...

    From what just said appear evident that Pantsyr-S will be employed in the anti-PGM/cruise missile point defence taskat defence of strategic long range Air defence systems (together with IAD integrated Tor-M1/2 and Igla-S) only until operational introduction of Morfey SAM system that will be vastly susperior in this specific role ,at this point the main SAM composition of National Air Space Defence will comprehend almost exclusively S-500-S-400-Vytiaz-Morfey and Pantsyr-S (with Tor-M2 and eventually Buk-M2/3) will be very likely assigned to Army's IAD and its S-300V4 dvisons


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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:57 pm

    medo wrote:I hope so. 100 vehicles in 10 years is quite small number. I'm sure KBP is able to produce around 60 vehicles per year.

    KBP is the designing bureau which also does the final assembly of the system. Most of the parts for the Pantsir are made by other entities such as: Tulamash makes the guns, Kamaz makes the trucks etc. etc.

    I don't think there is a potential to make 60 vehicles per year at the moment. 10 per year for the Russians and another 10 per year for export (UAE, Syria, Belarus etc.) is more realistic.

    I don't think the Pantsirs are replacements for the Tunguskas. Wheeleed Pantsirs are all we have seen so far, these can not keep up with tanks and other tracked vehicles. As Garry said, the Pantsirs are more to protect less mobile assets. In case the tracked version gets also produced, then maybe when can see production rates double or even triple.
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    medo

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:02 pm

    There is for some years a prototype of tracked Pantsir, which use the same chassis as Tor and Tunguska.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6834993Posg
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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:34 pm

    Pantsir-S1 is a system that can have a range of mounts including a fixed mount for protecting fixed sites like Airfields or HQs, which can also be mounted on boats as a naval system.

    There are tracked models and models with a range of different chassis.

    Originally the Pantsir was the shelterised (truck, trailer, or fixed) and cheaper version of Tunguska. It had more basic single barrel guns and 12km range missiles.

    The current Pantsir-S1 is the ideal replacement for the Tunguska, as the GM-xxxx vehicles the Tunguska is based upon is made in Belarus, so a change to a Russian chassis base will be a step forward.

    I rather suspect their might even be an air mobile model base on a light vehicle... perhaps with a single gun on one side of the turret and 4-6 missiles on the other... or it might be a lighter missile like SOSNA or Morfei.

    I rather hope that it is either 100 batteries, or they meant more than 100 systems... and actually meant 200-300 vehicles, because 100 is poor for such a small system. 100 vehicle launchers is more like production expectations for S-400, not a light SAM.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:57 am

    Probably batteries as mindstorm explained 48 regiments actually mean 480 lounchers witch is quite good by 2020 and it not like they will stop after 2020.
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    TR1

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:04 am

    Ok, let's make bets. I maintain the number of Pantsirs in Russian ground forces use, before 2020, will not exceed 300, and even that I consider generous.
    If I lose, I will send everyone in the thread a bottle of Russian standard platinum.

    Will check back on this thread in 8 years time :p.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:03 am

    Well according to Wiki the Russian Army alone uses about 256 Tunguskas with the Navy using 133 Shilkas in active service last year (2011) and talk of the Navy being fully rearmed in 2015... plus the fact that the Pantsir-S1 has been settled on as the standard defensive SAM to protect larger SAMs in Air Force and VKO use... that means one Pantsir-S battery for each S-400 and S-500 battery I think if everything goes to plan they might not need 600 vehicles, but they will certainly need rather more than 100.

    Of course we have to agree that we are talking about the Pantsir-S1 system which can be track mounted, truck mounted, trailer mounted, and fixed unit mounted on land or at sea.

    From what I have read the Kuznetsov alone will have 8 systems fitted.

    Morfei is coming too and while it should be a very capable system it will be short ranged and not particularly cheap to use.

    The Pantsir-S1 is in many ways comparable to early model SA-11s... especially against small and crossing targets.

    By assuming less than 300 vehicles you are saying less than 50 batteries for the Russian military to 2020?

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