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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

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    GarryB
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:52 pm

    The ships they are looking at upgrading... is Kirov and Slava class vessels that have Klintok could have these systems replaced with Pantsir-S1.

    Given an overhaul and upgrade it makes no sense to keep old systems in service as they will become expensive over time both to maintain and upgrade.

    Makes rather more sense to replace them during overhauls with new systems.

    The enormous pedestal radar system for Klinok could be directly replaced with either a Pantsir-S1 turret directly, or a 5P-10 artillery fire control radar system turret which could direct a number of systems.

    It makes little sense to keep Klintok and Pantsir-S1 in service, the extra vertical launch space used by Klintok could be used for UKSK launchers or Redut launchers instead. The Klintok had a rotary launcher that allowed internal access and took up more internal space than needed.

    The 5km range of Morphei is a little disappointing but that article mentions that it uses active and passive guidance... perhaps suggests a combined IIR and ARH seeker?
    They have shown before seekers that combined passive radar homing sensors with active radar homing antennas... from memory the active radar homing range was 20-25km while the passive radar homing range was over 200km.

    Just read in a Russian news site that they are going to show their first UCAV at MAKS2011.

    I would think ATAKA, Kornet-M, and Krisantema-M would be the most likely and most useful armament for such a light platform (150-170kgs weapon payload).

    medo
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:37 pm

    I still think Pantsir is more suited to replace old AK-630 and Kashtan systems, than Klinok. After all, Klinok is naval Tor system and Tor-M2 is in equal level with Pantsir. It is cheaper to upgrade Klinok radar to Tor-M2 level and put Tor-M2 missiles in launchers, than redesign construction of ships to place Pantsir in place of Klinok. It is more wise to place UKSK and Redut systems on new ships than redesigning old ships, which doesn't have that long life time left. Udaloys with Klinok upgraded to Tor-M2 level will be still well armed ships.

    GarryB
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:43 am

    It could replace both Klinok and AK-630.

    Klinok... the system, was quite expensive and took a while to fully enter service.

    For quite some time the ships with it operated without the radar tower which made it non operational.

    For older ships that are not stealthy the Pantsir-S1 is a significant step up in that it can hit targets out to 20km in range, and up to 15km in altitude while being able to hit targets 2m above the waves. That is no longer a short range SAM... altitude wise that is BUK but with better low altitude performance.
    The potential to use the unified Hermes missiles with radio command inertial guidance and some form of terminal homing like IIR or MMW radar the range could actually be greatly extended and include ground targets.

    There is no reason why a Pantsir-S1 turret could not be made stealthy, though the launcher will never be as stealthy as the Klinok launcher the turret and radar and optics could be made more stealthy.

    It is quite common for navy radar systems to be fitted ball covers to protect them from the environment (ie sea spray and wind etc)... it would not be a huge step to mount a phased array radar inside a ball fairing that could be filled with exotic gasses that could be ionised by running a powerful electrical current through it. ...ie plasma stealth.

    The thing is that Pantsir-S1 can be a short range SAM and CIWS and with guns is more flexible... you can't fire a warning shot with Klinok.

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    New Short Range Radar

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:42 am

    New S-R Radar, possibly associated with the new gen. Vitjaz and Morfej SAM systems. In the pic below it's mounted on a PU-12M7 Air-Def command vehicle



    It operates in the S-band.

    It's referred to by the Russian acronym 'CAR' (Digital Phased Array)


    Specs from the pic

    Detection range:

    max horizontal: 160km vertical: 12km

    RCS of target

    0.01m2 - 16km
    1m2 - 50km
    2m2 - 60km (see the rest on the pic)


    Max target speed: 2500 m/s




    GarryB
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:53 am

    Interesting.

    Looks a bit like the new search radar on Pantsir-S1 but not as deep.

    Also interesting that it seems to be attached to the turret of the BTR and that it is on an enlarged forward hull.

    It seems to be based on the GAZ-59039 which is used as an amphibious ambulance/medical vehicle with a tent attachment.

    I doubt this will include the tent.

    Clearly they wanted wheeled mobility for this radar as the MTLB would likely offer easier access and more volume capacity.

    medo
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:52 pm

    http://www.tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201109211830-g86w.htm

    Video from TVzvezda about S-400 and Pantsir in military exercise Center-2011. It's nice to see first pictures of Pantsirs with black Russian army licence plates. They also show 91N6 radar for S-400.

    medo
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:27 pm







    Some pictures of Pantsirs from exercise "Ščit Sojuza 2011". Looks like they are not the same as the ones in May 2011 parade in Moscow, because they have shorter "grills" for crew to load it with missiles and rounds, that the first series.

    medo
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:37 pm

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-558.html

    Interesting article about development and versions of Pantsir.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:29 am

    More I learn about the Pantsir-S1, the more I like it... Very Happy

    Thanks Medo.

    medo
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:30 pm

    More I learn about the Pantsir-S1, the more I like it... Very Happy

    Thanks Medo.

    Thanks Garry, I like it too.

    The only thing I miss is a picture of battery command post (I'm sure it also have battery radar), which article claim, that Russian military receive it in 2010. At least they show transport vehicle with additional missiles for reloading.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Austin on Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:55 pm

    Can Pantsyr-S1 intercept a Low and Fast Supersonic Missile like Brahmos ?

    What is the maximum speed of a target that Pantsyr-S1 is capable of defending against ?

    How about Pantsyr-S1 ability to detect small RCS but slow cruise missile like Kh-101 whose RCS is stated at 0.001 m2 ?

    Austin
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Austin on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:08 pm

    From Medo speed atleast i got answer to one question the maximum speed of the target that Pantsyr-S1 missile can defeat is 1000 m/sec translates to Mach 2.9

    Also it says a Mig-29 was detected at 35 Km by its MMW radar and Mig-29 is 5m2 target how much would a 0.001 m2 target will will detected at ?

    Stealthflanker
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:32 pm

    Austin wrote:
    Also it says a Mig-29 was detected at 35 Km by its MMW radar and Mig-29 is 5m2 target how much would a 0.001 m2 target will will detected at ?

    the basic 4th Rules of RADAR detection range will give figure of 4,16 km .

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Austin on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:40 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Austin wrote:
    Also it says a Mig-29 was detected at 35 Km by its MMW radar and Mig-29 is 5m2 target how much would a 0.001 m2 target will will detected at ?

    the basic 4th Rules of RADAR detection range will give figure of 4,16 km .

    Assuming your calculation is right , Thanks for that. its really not bad for a quick reaction missile. They can still beat a subsonic low rcs target comfortably.

    Assuming its a fast Mach 3 target with 0,001 RCS then it would just give it 4 secs from detection to launch .....too fast the missile will beat Pantsyr-S1

    Stealthflanker
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:59 pm

    Austin wrote:

    Assuming its a fast Mach 3 target with 0,001 RCS then it would just give it 4 secs from detection to launch .....too fast the missile will beat Pantsyr-S1

    well, the missile can still be detected farther through means of Infra red imagers .. doing mach 3 at typical low flight altitude for cruise missile.. will surely heat it up .

    how far is the detection range.. depends on the Pantsyr's IR sensor properties as well as athmosphere..like how big is the aperture and Specific detectivity or "D*" (dee-star).

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:03 pm

    Pantsirs radar is designed to detect 3 to 5 cm2 RCS what is 0,0003 to 0,0005 m2, so I don't think it will have problems with cruise missiles.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:25 am

    You have to keep in mind that MMW radars are very high frequency, and in the case of the radars fitted to the Pantsir-S1 are not designed for very long range detection and engagement.

    In fact that is the reason the Kamov and Mil attack helos have two radars... MMW for close range against ground targets, and CM wave radar for use against aerial targets.

    The CM wave radar is more vulnerable to jamming and even ARMs, but offers better range performance against a wide range of targets at the expense of a lower resolution view of the target.

    The MMW radar has the resolution to determine whether a ground target has a turret or if it is tracked and how many wheels it has etc etc.

    The combination of thermals and radars on the vehicles themselves, supported by the battery radar and of course the other radar and EO assets in the local AD network means there will not be much the Pantsir-S1 cannot deal with... on paper of course.

    In the real world crew can use bad tactics, make a mistake, have a very unfortunate mechanical breakdown etc.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Austin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:07 am

    i just wonder since Pantsir-S1 is such a capable system , why do they need to waste money building Morfei system , just upgrade the Pantsir-1 Missiles and Guns and make it usable for all 3 service.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:37 pm

    I think both, Pantsir-S1 and Tor-M2, are same capable and could do the job of Morphei with longer range missiles. OK, Tor-M2 is for ground forces, so they are not concurrence here. Maybe Pantsir and Morphei will have different roles in air and space defense, where Pansir as mobile system, which could fire on the move will work with S-400 and Vityaz and protect them on the move, while Morphei will work more stationary (VLS) and will have to protect important point targets like radar stations, CPs, airfields, bridges, etc. Morphei will have to hit any bomb or missile, which fly to protected object.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:27 am

    i just wonder since Pantsir-S1 is such a capable system , why do they need to waste money building Morfei system , just upgrade the Pantsir-1 Missiles and Guns and make it usable for all 3 service.

    Pantsir-S1 is a long bulky two stage missile that would not suit internal carriage on a 5th gen fighter.

    It is also very simple and cheap which makes it an excellent missile because it means you can produce it in enormous numbers and actually use it during testing and exercises.

    Standard practise in the west with expensive missiles is for everyone in the unit to train and practise on simulators and the soldier with the best performance gets to fire off a live round.

    With SAMs you can use missiles without warheads and drones with telemetry equipment to measure how close the missile gets to the drone, but obviously a direct hit will demolish a drone through pure kinetic energy... using real but obsolete cruise missiles as targets means real practise against real targets.

    Very simply however in many ways you can think of Morfei and Pantsir-S1 as being different systems with different goals.

    In the air and on the water and on land the Morfei is primarily to protect the vehicle that carries it and things in its very immediate vicinity like an HQ or Radar etc.

    The much longer range and altitude of the pantsir-S1 makes it an area SAM with decent altitude capabilities while retaining low cost missiles.

    In practise the difference is shown in the Air Force use... the Morfei will equip fighters for self defence, while Pantsir-S1 will defend air bases, other SAMs, and in its HERMES form it will equip attack helos and CAS aircraft.

    At sea it has the potential to replace Kashtan-M and Klintok, but in practise I think upgraded Klinok might be replaced with a combination of the short range (40km) Redut missile and the short range Morfei missile... the late model Klintok can reach targets at 18-20km which means helos and fixed wing aircraft with short range missiles like Hellfire and Maverick can be engaged along with the missiles, but with Morfei you can probably engage a wider range of incoming threats, while the 40km range Redut missile can hit aerial launch platforms even further out.

    Of course with the Redut launcher including the two small S-400 missiles (120km and 40km range) plus Morfei, you could load a combination of all three missiles to suit the likely conditions, whereas Klintok and Pantsir-S1 are less flexible, though certainly capable at what they do.

    Morfei will not be cheap. (I mean missile wise, it will have an initially expensive seeker and new thrust vectoring nozzle rocket motor plus datalink). Klintok (which is TOR) and Pantsir-S1 have very cheap simple missiles that can be made in huge numbers.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:57 pm

    Russian Air Force to get 60 air defense systems in 2012


    The Russian Air Force is planning to acquire about 60 new and modernized air defense systems in 2012, Air Force spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Thursday.

    “The new acquisitions include S-400 long-range air defense missile systems, Nebo-U radars and Pantsir-S1 short range missile/gun systems,” Drik said.

    The Air Force will receive up to 10 Su-34 Fullback fighter-bombers, about 10 Su-25SM Frogfoot attack fighters, and an unspecified number of Su-35S Flanker-E multirole fighters.

    The Su-35S is Russia’s advanced “Generation 4++” fighter.

    New acquisitions will also include over 20 attack helicopters, such as the Mi-28N Night Hunter and the Ka-52 Alligator, as well as “highly modernized” Mi-35 Hind helicopters.

    The Air Force will also receive about 30 Mi-8 transport and five Mi-26T heavy lift helicopters.


    http://www.en.ria.ru/news/20111201/169210478.html

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:39 am

    So although they lost the PVO portion of their forces, they will still retain SAMS and radars and presumably interceptors?

    This will mean each Russian unit will have two air defence structures... the local district service based structure, and the VKO.

    So an Army unit of Engineers working on a bridge will have an Army air defence unit protecting them while they work, but might also have VKO units protecting it, if it is strategically important enough.

    The interesting thing would be if the bridge they were building was across a river that divided two districts, which might cause issues about whos SAMs can cover what airspace for the Army, but as the VKO operates over the whole country it has no operational boundries to worry about.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:17 pm




    It seems Russian air force will get Pantsirs with new Janus faced search radar.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:34 pm

    I wonder how this new AESA radar folds out of the way when not in use and when it is to be air cargoed?

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:48 am

    I would suspect it simply folds backwards to the horizontal like the previous models did.

    This should be a huge improvement in tracking performance... they will likely use one of these vehicles in each unit to improve surveillance performance.

    Obviously the only advantage is in tracking more targets and keeping a more precise track on them as the track will be updated more regularly.

    A fixed 4 face array on the other hand could have replaced the tracking antenna and greatly increased the number of missiles guided to targets at one time.

    This is however a tracking radar, and not a tracking and guidance radar, and still relies on mechanical steering.

    Nice pic... thanks for sharing.

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